Dealing with a Cult

[Tom Carlson]

Let’s see. This is an excellent week for florists to send orders through the wire services and likewise fill orders coming through the wire services.

This will allow the wire service to market directly to the florists’ customer data base with the florists’ dollars to not go to your shop but instead come to www.wireservice.com where:
1. Your customer will have more non-flower options than flower choices.
2. Your customer will have the option to buy flowers that are shipped in a box that are better than your flowers and also cheaper.
3. Your customer will have same day delivery by Brown who will leave the package at the door.
4. The wire service can keep the 20% commission by the orders not going through your shop.
5. Your customer will have the convenience of shopping at Walmart’s FTD shop.
6. And they can still bill you for exorbitant dues
7. And assess charges if you don’t play by their rules

There are 7 good reasons for you to keep supporting the wire services, that is, good for the WS,

Could it be that the wire services are running a Cult?

 

[BamaE4U]

What flavor is. . .

wireservice Coolaid?

 

[bloomz]

This will allow the wire service to market directly to the florists’ customer data base with the florists’ dollars to not go to your shop but instead come to www.wireservice.com where:

How they gonna get my database to market to? Is that the noise I been hearing in my closet at night?

 

[BOSS]

Customers had that option long before the wires got into the retail side of the business, it was called local competition. The internet changed that, and now some companies we deal with are also selling direct to consumers. So be it, nothing we can do about that.

Several points in Tom's post are not quite accurate, one being, the wires have no access to my customer database, sure they market in credit card statements, and other venues, but hell so do I, so should my competition complain about me?

Paying dues, is for the convienence of sending orders. My cost without figuring in the 20% and rebate, and the 73% received on incomings is $0.47 per order, when you add in the 20% and rebate it becomes a negative number meaning that the wires PAY ME to use their service...JB...you?

It amazes me that so many that are not members are the ones doing the most complaining, all the while they know that currently there is no viable alternative for many of us. I also imagine, when the viable alternative shows itself to the light in the near future they too will be the ones pooh poohing the new game in town....

Every shop has to decide what works best for their bottom line...PERIOD. Until we drop the wire debate, we're simply wasting time and air...

 

[flowerchild]

Boss, are you drinking this morning?

Boss, I'm not sure that this is the message you want to send.

"Several points in Tom's post are not quite accurate, one being, the wires have no access to my customer database, sure they market in credit card statements, and other venues, but hell so do I, so should my competition complain about me?"

I am a little surprised that you don't see this. Afterall, you aren't ALSO paying your "local competition" dues are you? Are you paying them anything? You seem to be conveniently missing the point, Boss. WS's DO market to your customers and then tell them to stop using you. EVEN AS A SENDER. If they don't get to your original sending customer (because of your heavily guarded customer list...lol), they DO get to your receiving customer. They keep databases just like you. And, are you seriously comparing your marketing reach to theirs?!?!! Maybe I misunderstood....teeheee

I am sure you know the truth on this....it's why your post focuses on the cost benefits of SENDING not receiving. OF COURSE, WS is going to pay the senders. It's the only thing keeping them alive.

Boss, maybe you are starting to see the true "middleman" benefits of being an OG. Enticing aren't they? Most unethical actions have this draw. You know, the color of sin and all. This should give you some perspective. Picture yourself as a donkey being led around by the "big man" with a carrot. Most times, the donkey can't see the "big man." The donkey only sees the carrot. Lack of vision for the donkey still doesn't change the fact that he's "being led around."

Of course, I expect you'll say I am exaggerating, because you believe you have learned to manipulate the "big man" to your benefit. Doesn't change the fact that you are being led around, does it?

Wouldn't it be funny if the donkey offered to pay the "big man" for his 'service'.

Read your post again and tell me you are for the real florists.

Tom's Post is SPOT ON!
Flower Power

 

[Dazeal]

wireservice Coolaid?

lol Bama for PREZ!

Bama can you drop ship that overnight to me direct from the (loony)farm?

 

[12BucksFor2Dozon]

...It amazes me that so many that are not members are the ones doing the most complaining, all the while they know that currently there is no viable alternative for many of us. I also imagine, when the viable alternative shows itself to the light in the near future they too will be the ones pooh poohing the new game in town....

Every shop has to decide what works best for their bottom line...PERIOD. Until we drop the wire debate, we're simply wasting time and air...

Well. Mark, who *do* you expect to complain? Those still profitably using the wires at the expense of the entire mom n pop industry? Why would the OGs and heavy senders complain, when such easy money is to be made on the backs of the ignorant filling florists who are too old-fashioned to realize they are being sucked dry by the corporate snakes?

There is only ONE viable alternative, and that is a super-low cost, open, fair and equitable order transfer system that leverages the net as an almost free transmission medium, with minimal centralized control. Greed kills.

 

[BOSS]

Boss, I'm not sure that this is the message you want to send.

"Several points in Tom's post are not quite accurate, one being, the wires have no access to my customer database, sure they market in credit card statements, and other venues, but hell so do I, so should my competition complain about me?"

I am a little surprised that you don't see this. Afterall, you aren't ALSO paying your "local competition" dues are you? Are you paying them anything? You seem to be conveniently missing the point, Boss.
Flower Power

Hmmm... where to start...

One thing, I DID use to be an OG...directly...10K orders....gave it up....

I'll give it some thoought...and formulate a response....too tired roght now..

 

[bloomz]

I am sure you know the truth on this....it's why your post focuses on the cost benefits of SENDING not receiving. OF COURSE, WS is going to pay the senders. It's the only thing keeping them alive.

Filling shops don't pay membership fees? Since when?

Boss, maybe you are starting to see the true "middleman" benefits of being an OG. Enticing aren't they? Most unethical actions have this draw. You know, the color of sin and all.

Unethical? Sin? In whose opinion? Strong words. Sheeesh

Tom's Post is SPOT ON!
Flower Power

Except he missed the mark, which was, he gave them his information when he test ordered them. And complained that they marketed to him, now their legitimate customer? Shame on them.

You call that spot on? O-K, whatever...

opinions vary...boy howdy

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

OK guys....

don't go down this path.......not worth it!

 

[BOSS]

You seem to be conveniently missing the point, Boss. WS's DO market to your customers and then tell them to stop using you. EVEN AS A SENDER. If they don't get to your original sending customer (because of your heavily guarded customer list...lol), they DO get to your receiving customer. They keep databases just like you. And, are you seriously comparing your marketing reach to theirs?!?!! Maybe I misunderstood....teeheee


Flower Power

Tenely, I'll try to take your points, and clarify mine one at a time, as time permits today...

Marketing...Yes, I do concur that the wire services market to recipients, and *their own senders*. Yes they also refference not using a local florist.

I debate the fact that they get *my customer* as they have no access to my database, yes they get the recipient information on the recieving end, but that person is not *my* customer, but most likely a customer of another local florist on the recieving end. This would happen as well if I sent the order through florist #2 if that same recipient was a customer of florist #1, and then also the wire service.

One thing I have over the WS's and so does every other florist, is that it is my service, and my product getting into the hands of the recipient, not just an email, not just a post card, but flowers, real live flowers that show in an up close and personal way what my shop can do.

And no I am not comparing my marketing reach to theirs. Like I said, I *used* to market for orders, in fact directly for outgoing wires business. I was in 4 phone books covering a good protion of the Missuagain State....it was very profitable in the beginning, but also alot of hassel, and work, ending in a break even when I stopped doing it.

One thing, and I did not clarify this in my original post, was that small mom and pop local florists can market just like the big boys, no not in credit card statements or cable bills...but locally in the same manner. I wonder how many (never seen it discussed here) florists partner with other local businesses, sending MY statement stuffers out in the local mom and pop pharmacy's statements, and theirs in mine, or with the local dry cleaners. To me it seems redundant to send my own stuffers out *only* in my own statements...when the partnership is possible working with other local businesses.

As to being "unethical"...I don;t think so, but thats for others to decide, not me. I run my business in a method to produce a profit, just like everyone else has to do.

Another thought...Tom and I have a product in common most other "florists" do not, furniture. We have sold Tropitone, Brown Jordan, Woodard and others for years...now days I see these same lines showing up at Art Van and other discount furniture stores...would it do any good for me/us to complain about that, knowing they will not stop, or do we continue to try and beat them at their own game, sometimes using them when we need a good deal on a leather sofa because they market to our customers too is every Sunday paper?

And one last thought before I open the doors on a bright sunny day...as to Real Florists, that is where my true passion is, the future of this industry, only thing is I need funds to further the cause, and the only way to get them is to stay in business.

Have a nice day, go make a few bucks....I'll be back later....much later.

 

[flowerchild]

Kool-Aid

I love the furniture example Boss provided.

"would it do any good for me/us to complain about that, knowing they will not stop, or do we continue to try and beat them at their own game, sometimes using them when we need a good deal on a leather sofa because they market to our customers too is every Sunday paper?"

Can you imagine trying to "beat them at their own game" while ALSO paying them a membership fee? Essentially helping them beat you?!?!?!!!!!

and Bloomz..........I must admit....I don't understand your post at all. But mostly this piece....

"Except he missed the mark, which was, he gave them his information when he test ordered them. And complained that they marketed to him, now their legitimate customer? Shame on them."

Oh wait, Bloomz....ahhhh, you mean Bloomz the Order Gatherer. Now, I understand. Of course, you can't see the ethics here. Perspective is everything.

but....I do like the tag line you have.....opinions vary.

 

[Tom Carlson]

Good points, Boss, but to take one point further . . .

BOSS SAID "I debate the fact that they get *my customer* as they have no access to my database," END QUOTE

When my customer tries a .com site out of curiosity or convience, then the wire service that .com uses has my customer's data.

Maybe that is a mute issue now because by now the "horse is out of the barn". The data base available to our competition is so readily available is not nothing to fuss about anymore.

BUT WHAT REMAINS AN ISSUE IS THIS: FLORISTS ARE FUELING THE ENGINE THAT IS COMPETING DIRECTLY AGAINST THEM FOR THE CONSUMER'S BUSINESS. That is a travesty.

No one can refute the fact that IF THE CONSUMER DOES NOT NEED THE WIRE SERVICE ANYMORE, THEN THE FLORIST DOESN'T EITHER!!.

Why am I complaining while not being a member of FTD, TF or 800? Because their tactics are tearing down our industry, not building it up. Our only hope/prayer is that IF A CONSUMER GETS BURNED BY THE .COMs THAT THEY WILL COME BACK TO THE REAL FLORIST AND NOT GIVE UP ON FLOWERS ALTOGETHER.

That's what worries me, but why do I even care now that I am in my 52nd year? Because IT'S MY PASSION.

 

[goldfish]

Why am I complaining while not being a member of FTD, TF or 800? Because their tactics are tearing down our industry, not building it up.

I have been meaning to ask this question for some time...

Let's say you have another florist across the street competing against you. Your shop is not a member of any WS, while the competitor shop belongs to all of them.

Would you prefer them staying as they are (members of WS), so that, according to you, they will go out of business? Or would you prefer them leaving WS as you did?

 

[bloomz]

You don't have to get it Tenley, and of course everything I post is from my own perspective - duh - but gosh you busted me cold on the order gathering deal. I feel so bad and am going to quit tomorrow. Because another person with another perspective selling competing services to florists in another arena called me a name. K? Feel better now? :kuddle:

Tom - if they "tried" an online service, or your competitor across town - what makes them "your customer"? I'd say if they go elsewhere, we have lost them for one reason or another, wouldn't you?

So then we're gonna gripe about that other company marketing to them?

The task here as I see it, is to keep them from straying, or at least find out why and plug that hole if we can?

Or - do it better than they do, as in fighting fire with fire?

yep...

opinions vary

all blessings

 

[Griff]

It seems that everytime we get on this subject, most aren't looking at the long term effect of what is happening, but rather only the short term. The big 3 are not only your competition these days, but in many ways are not only trying to divert the consumer away from your business, which is what competition does, but they are trying to ELIMINATE YOU as one of their competitiors. Once the local FLORIST is no longer available to the consumer, they will HAVE to deal with only .coms and regional 800 numbers and the floral products will either be drop shipped or frabicated in a warehouse somewhere or substituted with candy or something else. You can verify this every day that you look at one of the big 3 websites and see how little is there for FLORISTS.

Many florists are placing their short term needs <making dollars today> in front of their long term needs which is preservation of their business. As the big 3 continue to run the local florist out of business, they still continue to collect more money from the ones that are left and tell them they are here only to help them. This is a fairy tale with a very bad ending.

Many of us understand ALL of this and we know why individuals take the positions that you do, but Tom and myself and others here would also like everyone to understand that even if we are no longer part of the WS problem, the ones that remain, for whatever reason, continue to financially support the ones that want to eliminate the vast majority of the local florist population. Forget about the passion. It is all our livelihoods at stake and this is not about just OG's and .coms. It is about NOT becoming extinct!!

 

[theRKF]

Tom - if they "tried" an online service, or your competitor across town - what makes them "your customer"? I'd say if they go elsewhere, we have lost them for one reason or another, wouldn't you?
So then we're gonna gripe about that other company marketing to them?

I always love the "my customer" or "our customer" logic. What makes a person your exclusive property? Do florists have some kind of unspoken geographical right to the business of certain customers, kind of like a little league sports team owns the players in a region? Or, is a customer bound to you for life after making a purchase?

Or is the person really a customer of the company they most recently ordered from? If your customer bought from a .com, maybe they aren't your customer any more?

The task here as I see it, is to keep them from straying, or at least find out why and plug that hole if we can?
Or - do it better than they do, as in fighting fire with fire?

It's simple, as Bloomz said: Florists need to market better. Get out of the "entitled to my backyard" mentality and remind the consumers why they started buying flowers in the first place.

Ryan

 

[12BucksFor2Dozon]

...
Would you prefer them staying as they are (members of WS), so that, according to you, they will go out of business? Or would you prefer them leaving WS as you did?

Now THAT'S a great question, and very insightful on this whole debate. Personally, I would *love* to see them keep with the wires because I really don't need more "local only" competition, but like I have postulated since most of the bucket TFTD shops are not really concerned about profit anyway, I can never really expect them to actually go out of business until, hopefully, someday they just tire of the "glamour" of being an floral ar-TIST...

 

[PhillyPhlorist]

Here we go again...

Quoting Tom "No one can refute the fact that IF THE CONSUMER DOES NOT NEED THE WIRE SERVICE ANYMORE, THEN THE FLORIST DOESN'T EITHER!!. "

Not correct. OK - said before, and I will say again (thinking that it MAY actually sink in) is that there is STILL a market for florists to send orders via the wires. Customers still desire this service. In some markets, AT THE CURRENT MOMENT, the only economical way to send orders out of town is via an electronic w/s. Let's see...this week we have sent nearly 100 orders out of town. 30+ a day.
Um, Tom, if you want me to drop FTD, then can you come over and call each and every one of these orders out for me? I'll pay you what it is costing me to do this - about $1.50 an hour?

Now, as far as OG's marketing to 'MY CUSTOMER BASE' - if you mean the customers in MY area, then, yes they do. They are free to do so. However, as mentioned above as well, it is the FLORIST'S duty to do marketing of his/her own! I think we can all agree the "loyality factor" of the flower-buying consumer is at an all time low. There may be NOTHING wrong with the service you provide to your customer, and he may just decide to try a .COM. Nothing you can do to prevent this, except keep offering the best service, product and KEEP REMINDING HIM that he is a VALUED customer to 'XYZ Florists"... People are experimenting via the web with MANY online stores, with ALL KINDS of products...

Let's all face it, the reason why this post is even here is because of FTD.COM, TEL.COM and 800. (NOT the w/s themselves, but the OG business they do...) ProFlowers is n/a since they are 100% drop ship. Yes they are a competitor, but not with the likes of the other 3 (for those 3 rely on the local florist to complete many of the orders). Dropping a w/s is NOT the answer. NOT filling any OG specific order IS. Trouble is, this is just not going to happen, too many florists rely on the inbound orders from FTD & TEL.com...

Back to work! There goes the 3rd line!!!!

- H.

 

[Dazeal]

Not going to get into anything here on this subject we've all beat it into the ground and someone new came along and asked and.... here we go again.

I want to take this moment and say, Thank YOU, for drop kicking me Jesus, through the goal posts of life!

You guys can all argue and point fingers, I'm going to eat a Steak, drink a Corona and make sweet sweet sweeeeeeet love to my wife. (not really, she's 6 months pregnant and wants to kill me right now) lol