Do you think overpopulation has limited the wire services ability to create success?

[duanermb]

Our city is an excellent example of this:

See Winnipeg map here.

Winnipeg is a bit of an island, with no urban sprawl. Anything inside the ring road is fair game for all florists who mostly deliver for $10 to anywhere inside that ring.

All florists deliver city wide. Really, the wires only need one florist to deliver for the entire city, but of course for outgoing, multiple locations are required to gather orders.

Looks at these 2! Both Teleflora, and you can literally throw a rock at one from the other, across the street.

Pawlyshyn's Academy Florist

1165 Henderson Highway


Edelweiss Florist

2-1110 Henderson Hwy

(They are also both FTD) There is another one at 817 Henderson Highway, also Teleflora.

 

[Mark Anderson]

Hey Duane

Shouldn't it balance out?

Twice as many member forists equals twice as many orders in the system being shared among......twice as many florists. It nets out the same. Unless of course you want them to solicit orders from non filling OGs.

 

[duanermb]

Hey Duane

Shouldn't it balance out?

Twice as many member forists equals twice as many orders in the system being shared among......twice as many florists. It nets out the same. Unless of course you want them to solicit orders from non filling OGs.

I think perhaps 10 years ago, but now the orders aren't coming from the florists any more, they are mostly coming from OGs already, and as we have read in many threads, people believe that will die even further as time passes.

Or, am I off? The more discussion the better!

 

[Mark Anderson]

I left the OG part out of my argument because it seems like those orders tend to be undervalued and/or florists don't want to fill them on principle.

Wire services try and build order volume by courting og's. They buy their orders by offering bigger rebates than the next guy. In many cases the rebate ends up being almost as big (if not as big or bigger) than the percentage the wire service gets to keep.

Why would they do that? Because lots of orders in the system means lots of members. Florists in general judge a service by the volume (not value) of orders they receive. The ws is less interested in the 7% or 8% than the fixed monthly fees.

The service is only interested in maximum revenue (more florists, more fees) and has no interest in helping create success for the members. Please don't ever think that anything that has happened in this industry over the last ten years is an honest mistake they are interested in correcting.

 

[duanermb]

The service is only interested in maximum revenue (more florists, more fees) and has no interest in helping create success for the members. Please don't ever think that anything that has happened in this industry over the last ten years is an honest mistake they are interested in correcting.

Exactly the point of the poll.

Further point to think about is, what kind of network would florists be happy with, then think about voting again...

I think it would be a network with good coverage, but less members, but....Opinions vary.

 

[Dorothy]

Something to keep you company while you ponder the poll question :drunk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxDT3s-z9i8

 

[Mark Anderson]

Exactly the point of the poll.

Further point to think about is, what kind of network would florists be happy with, then think about voting again...

I think it would be a network with good coverage, but less members, but....Opinions vary.

I don't think I'm understanding the question! It seems like you are asking if florists would like a service that had more orders (largely coming from og's) shared among fewer filling members. Many florists would say "Yes!" but the question is a contradiction.

In a florist-to-florist-with-the-help-of-a-wire-service model the number of florists (aside from coverage) is irrelevant. In other words as long as all the orders are generated by true member florists the number of members doesn't matter - there is no such thing as over-saturation because every member that receives also generates.

Over-saturation only becomes an issue if you are looking for OGs or the service itself (acting as an OG) to provide order volume. In that scenario every new member in an area means less orders for the existing members.

Buying order volumes from OGs is a money-losing proposition for the service. Take a $50 order. The wire service gets a $3.50 - $4.00 commission but they are giving the OG a rebate of at least $5. There have been situations (and may still be) where big OGs would get $7 or $8 an order. At this point the wire service has lost as much as $4 on the order! They only reason they will do that is because they know that the shop that gets to fill that order will be more willing to pay their membership fee, extra listing fees, etc.

Because it's a loss leader you can't expect a service to limit their chance to recoup their loss. I've been told that supermarkets sell milk at a break-even price because it's something every young family needs all the time. This is why they put it at the very back corner - so you have to walk past every other temptation before you get to it. It wouldn't make sense to say "I know you lose money on that milk but I'd like you to make it and it alone available in drive-through kiosk with no line at the same price so that I'm not inconvenienced or otherwise tempted by anything else".

It's the same thing here - the wire service needs as many members as possible to offset the cost of buying order volume. You can't ask them to supply orders at a loss and forego any chance of profit by also limiting membership.

It is my humble but firmly held opinion that - for most shops - success with wire service membership lies in looking at them only as a convenient way of sending orders. As soon as you look at them to provide anything else (especially success in the form of incoming wires) you will almost certainly have your heart (and wallet) broken.

The good news is that there are great services that make sending easy and affordable. They aren't going to be able to bring in countless high-value orders but they can provide all it is reasonable to expect.

 

[duanermb]

I don't think I'm understanding the question! It seems like you are asking if florists would like a service that had more orders (largely coming from og's) shared among fewer filling members. Many florists would say "Yes!" but the question is a contradiction.

In a florist-to-florist-with-the-help-of-a-wire-service model the number of florists (aside from coverage) is irrelevant. In other words as long as all the orders are generated by true member florists the number of members doesn't matter - there is no such thing as over-saturation because every member that receives also generates.

Over-saturation only becomes an issue if you are looking for OGs or the service itself (acting as an OG) to provide order volume. In that scenario every new member in an area means less orders for the existing members.

Buying order volumes from OGs is a money-losing proposition for the service. Take a $50 order. The wire service gets a $3.50 - $4.00 commission but they are giving the OG a rebate of at least $5. There have been situations (and may still be) where big OGs would get $7 or $8 an order. At this point the wire service has lost as much as $4 on the order! They only reason they will do that is because they know that the shop that gets to fill that order will be more willing to pay their membership fee, extra listing fees, etc.

Because it's a loss leader you can't expect a service to limit their chance to recoup their loss. I've been told that supermarkets sell milk at a break-even price because it's something every young family needs all the time. This is why they put it at the very back corner - so you have to walk past every other temptation before you get to it. It wouldn't make sense to say "I know you lose money on that milk but I'd like you to make it and it alone available in drive-through kiosk with no line at the same price so that I'm not inconvenienced or otherwise tempted by anything else".

It's the same thing here - the wire service needs as many members as possible to offset the cost of buying order volume. You can't ask them to supply orders at a loss and forego any chance of profit by also limiting membership.

It is my humble but firmly held opinion that - for most shops - success with wire service membership lies in looking at them only as a convenient way of sending orders. As soon as you look at them to provide anything else (especially success in the form of incoming wires) you will almost certainly have your heart (and wallet) broken.

The good news is that there are great services that make sending easy and affordable. They aren't going to be able to bring in countless high-value orders but they can provide all it is reasonable to expect.

Still on target here. I am not saying that limited membership won't create less orders for the system, it will.

What I am getting at, is that florists created the situation we are currently in by belonging to multiple systems. I even heard it said at one point that they would receive orders on one system and send it though another!

The idea is to have a system that you /we can promote freely and virally, vs. what the industry is currently sitting in. One that you could put on your delivery vehicle, and proudly drive around your delivery areas. One that made sense. One that we wouldn't fear showing up in our SERPs.

I am entirely willing to divide this city among 6 great florists that serve the 6 major areas of town.

It is not a big budget that is going to change the industry, it's a great idea that people can grab onto that will change it.

 

[Mark Anderson]

To me rebates are the root of all evil. Multiple memberships lead many shops to individual ruin but imho it's rebates that have damaged the relay model as a whole.

They enable OG's to do what they do but - even more insidiously - they also keep good florists from doing what would be better for the industry.

Over the past several years I have had the pleasure of talking to some wonderful people who loved the industry and wanted to change the relay business for the better. They were developing new relay models that were designed to be more florist friendly - the common threads being low or non-existent fixed monthly fees and low or non-existent rebates (that keeps out the OGs and with little or no membership revenue there is no way to pay for rebates anyway).

The problem is that nobody (except for a few deeply committed true believers) will put orders into these systems. Most members already belong to one of the other wire services and, every time they have an outgoing wire, they have to ask themselves "do I send this with my traditional service and get a rebate and avoid a low sending fee or do I do what I know is probably better for the industry, forego the rebate and incur low sending fees?" In most cases they go with the rebate and you certainly can't blame them.

Of course every other florist thinks almost the same way. So no orders go in the new alternative system. And the florist starts to get down on on the new system - they are so used to a steady stream of OG orders they don't consider that in a true florist-to-florist network you should really only receive as many as you send. Nothing in, nothing out. Eventually they give up on the new service and it dies on the vine.

Many florists are so mad at the traditional wire services that they want to see them burn down and be replaced with something entirely new. Personally I don't see either happening - the wire services will probably be around for a very long time and it is unlikely a completely new model will come along to replace one that already works well enough. There is a lot that is bad (as evidenced by so much of the talk on this board) but the model does work well enough (meaning there are lots of florists who will keep paying fees and filling orders) to keep going.

But there is another approach. It doesn't have to be the traditional wire services in their current form OR something completely new. There are other good alternative vendors for relay services already. You might not agree with every single one of their policies but they are doing a lot of things right.

By supporting them you send a message to their competition (the bigger offenders) that they should maybe sit up and pay attention. That may be a more practical way of effecting long-term change.

 

[sandytf]

I voted no, not because I really think we need "as many as possible" but because we often have a hard time finding a filling florist in the smaller towns we send to. (We're FTD only). Our customers often end up paying more because the closest FTD florist is one or two towns away and IF they accept the order, the delivery charge is hefty. There is often a florist in the town, but it's not FTD.

I think the WS is a really different animal depending on whether or not you are in a rural or metropolitan area.

 

[Rhonda]

I haven't voted because it boils down to - please excuse this "old adage" - "Quality Assurance". Yes, they will saturate an area ......
This is not a bash on the WS's (imagine that from me) BUT...
If the WS's want quality then they should inspect and trial test a shop before allowing them in. That being said, the inspector would have to know about design. There are a good many shops that have one person who can "copy" a one sided look from a selection guide but have no clue as to appropriate design aside from looking at a guide and following a recipe.
Back in the day (yeah, I know g r o a n ).........shops were inspected before they were given the "right" to join any wire service - this was true for all of them. IF there were no designs in the cooler, they were asked to make some. Some reps even required on site design just for the feel of the shop's capability. At that time, you could usually depend on getting an out of town order done well, delivered on time, and have very very few complaints.
Not too long after the rebates started, everyone who applied was signed up and some didn't even have to apply, they were called and signed up immediately. No inspections, no rep visits, no quality assurances. It came down to $$ and that my friends, is where it now sits. Reps became salespeople not floral reps.
In a town of less than 5,000 there is no need for 3 Teleflora shops (which was why I dropped them a few years ago).
rant over.........

 

[mcf]

I agree with Sandy & Rhonda...

We need less coverage in large cities (at one time my zip had 6 TF & 5 FTD florists) and more coverage in small towns. I also believe flower shops should be visited and ranked. Maybe a star system... 1-5.

For those who feel you are a five, how do I know you are a 5? When I look on the Dove/Eagle stating "best florist in xyz" doesn't influence my choice. Credentials such as TMFA & AIFD do. Are you a Top 500, 1000, 2000 member. Are you a member of your state organization? On the Teleflora unit board? If so, put it up there so I can see it. Things like this let me know I am selecting a florist who is serious about their career and likely approaches business in a way similar to how I approach business.

$35 plant...no problem, pick someone. $250 easel spray...you better believe we do a little research before we click send.

 

[leigsa]

I completely agree that testing of florists BEFORE they join the ws is critical in insuring quality and preserving the integrity of the ws and all of the florists that choose to be apart of the WS.
I am originally from New Zealand and when I was a Jr florist to be able to do any of the teleflora or interflora (ftd) orders I had to go through testing and once approved I got certificated to be an approved florist for these companies. Not only in floral design but also in their administration (shop admin) procedures.
Here in the US any Dick and Jane can open a florist shop and as long as they are willing to pay their fees, can be a part of these companies.

 

[Johan]

In the UK it is slightly different. As a rule the BIG wire services only allow you to be part of one organisation. They can't stop you from accepting orders from OG who ring direct and pay by CC. But they still will allow several shops in a small area to have membership for just one organisation. Which is rediculous. Saying that Iif I was in an area that had say teleflorist there I would choose if I so wished a different wire service. So the UK seems to a greater extent to be almost self governed by the florists choosing the WS. I do however feel that the WS are being watered down all the time as OG make gains. I receive very few orders that are trying to be placed by OG. If I accept them, I send a notice out with the order asking the recipient to past our details and website address onto the sender. We let them know that they can order online and will receive 100% of the value of the order value + a nominal delivery charge. I'm hoping this way I can encourage more people to come to us direct.

 

[Palms]

Johan, just out of curiosity which order gatherers are in the UK, i have one in mind but not sure if she is a dishonest one or honest one. Only there is someone on introductions who links to them and it confused me. So sorry to hijak thread, hope you dont mind me just asking this quick question..

 

[inferno63]

When I was with wire services, the bloomnet rep came to my building and my cooler was empty with not one design in it. He whipped out the papers and I signed. He didn't look at any pics or ask me to show him anything. I was a new shop in the area without being widely known yet. Conclusion? He wanted my money.

FTD didn't even visit, it was all done via fax and mail. I could have been a horrible florist and they would have never known.

Quality assurance fees? BALONEY! They just wanted my money.

WS FREE and loving it.

 

[Dorothy]

The equation(s)

Goldies example:

$40K wire-ins (20% of $200,000)
discount = $10.8K
membership fee = $4,8K
Total WS expense = $10.8K + $4,8K = $15.6K

~

In Goldie’s example total revenue equals $24,400 from WS. This Wire In revenue should be separated in the books from locally derived revenue (that's been mentioned before). The “profit” generated from Wire Ins could then be used for the Advertising/Marketing Budget to the local/Internet target market. Not only does this keep the business owner on top of what the Wire In part of the business is doing, if there is in fact revenue generating from it and it was earmarked for advertising, then the advertising/marketing budget is also kept in check. That’s the only win I can see….

The main problem is, even with this detailed breakdown of which I’m quite sure many business owners appreciate (thank you Goldfish), is that the 27% discount on OG orders is often more than that, especially so at busy holidays, because typically in a small shop the owner is the only one who really pays attention to the price of the order received in the first place.

A designer’s first thought – and I know there are exceptions – is not, “Can I do this for that?” This is what's really on their minds: Is it a vase or container arrangement or a plant or dishgarden? Where's the recipe? Where's the picture? I have to look on the Internet? How do I do that again? Who is it for? Do we/will we have the flowers? Do we have the plants? Ooooh, I'll have fun with this one! These are all questions/thoughts that must be taken into consideration, in order to fulfill the sender’s request (local or wire). Price is the last thing on their minds, until they go to make the thing and only then if you, as a business owner, has communicated the importance of paying attention to the price and what is asked for. Requesting a price increase or rejecting the order, even when a price problem is recognized, is most often the owner’s responsibility (in a small shop) and really this problem shouldn’t happen in the first place but it must be taken care of ideally before the order even gets to the worktable.

So the owner is busy with wire orders that increasingly need to be analyzed order by order, because of heavily discounted or specific - no substitution - online OG senders, including Teleflora, FTD, 1-800 and all the rest that offer discounts on their websites, which ultimately takes the focus off other important business decisions. Every time an OG sends an order to a florist that is too specific, under priced, and most often does not factor in a delivery charge, precious time is taken away [stolen] from the business owner who already has limited time to spare.

IMO this is a huge reason why owners are turned off and PO-ed at WS. If OGs and florists alike checked their directories for min. pricing, availability, delivery charges, etc., and sent the correct/reasonable amount in the first place, the whole process would run more efficiently. Then the owner would have more time to spend on analyzing and marketing the business, ensuring quality assurance and generally keeping everybody happy instead of heading off and solving problems that shouldn’t even be part of the equation in the first place!