I don't understand something...A Whole new can of worms!

[Luc]

"Incoming orders are one of the biggest problems within this industry today. Why can't others realize that $5000 in incoming orders translates into such a small profit margin and only continues to enable 800 flowers. "Enf of quote

Here is just one of many quotes on Flower chat about filling incoming orders. Seems when you fill you don't make much money. If you send and don't fill you make money. A easy 20%.

SO here are my questions:
1. If you send $5,000.00 worth of orders out and receive $5,000.00 worth in, is'nt that almost like doing $5,000.00 worth of work from customers in your store. You loose 20% and you gain 20%, the only extra % you loose is the 7% marketing. If you do that 5,000.00 worth of orders in your store, you would still have to carry product, containers, labors etc.

2. If we want to send only orders to make money, than Who fills those orders??? THe fairy flower arranger?

I think we object to what the industry has become. A tug of war between wire service and we are right in the middle. DO you feel your hands being pulled by them? Don't you feel your body being stretch by them.
It's a wire service war. THey try to outdo themselves. THey are the one signing the Walmarts and grocery store. THey are the one who are looking to sign anyone that will send with them. They are the one that are causing these low sending amounts to entice consumers their way. THey are like a big box store.
Can't you say to me that those holidays containers they are offering and made in China and mexico etc. that they really cost them lots of money.
I mean, do they think we are stupid. I get product from those countries andthey are as equal or even superior for a fraction of the costs they sell it to us with a profit factored in.
When Teleflora called this week to book Valentine, Easter and Secretaries Day, I did not buy one thing. Neta, Zip, Zero. And I told the guy, that for the price of the containers they are offering, they are too expensive. He tried to BS me about Exclusivity, and style and colors and how it is made. What a load of crap. Now I won't say that I don't always says no to their containers. It is now that some consumers want them and that some are useful enough.
See, i am caught up in the freaking middle again. WE are all....
When your rep calls to sell you somethiing, remember you and the tug of war between service and Hit them back in their bocket book by saying no!

I also like Connie way of thinking....COngrats COnnie to be wire service free and if they need YOU and YOUR WORK...it's time for THEM TO PAY YOU!!!!! a monthly service fee to fill their orders. I dare you to mention to them this:
Sure I will fill your order, THat will be $79,95 monthly fee and how will you be paying for this?

Have fun with it...
Luc

 

[sfox]

What's there not to understand

Luc, what's there not to understand. The idea of sending and recieving the same and only losing the 7% is the ideal way a wire service should work. If every florist had this kind of sending and recieving all would make money.

Over time though many florists came to like the idea of getting a check every month instead of sending a check every month. This wasn't all that bad at first because the business was all between florists. We all had mostly the same overhead structure and most flowers were purchased in a florist shop.

But with the arrival of ordergatherers the equation changed for most florists. There was more recieving and not enough sending and at the same time the wire services began raising fees and dues. The caused the equation to change for most.

But what is happening now is that florists like yourself, who have realized that the numbers weren't adding up left. Good move. But at the same time florists like yourself began criticizing any florist who didn't follow your lead. For some the wire service provides some benefits, not many, still some.

And as to why wire services are trying to add supermarkets and others to the ranks, they want to increase the sending side of their business. Think about it. You can't sell the receiving side to a business that understands filling is a losing proposition. They need sending because florists are retreating from sending becuase most look at the wire service as a totally losing proposition when in fact it is the sending where the money is made.

And if you only fill for real florists and are still sending orders the wire service is still a tool needed to make your shop a full service florists to your customers. Not all florists ever were or are today full service. There are all kinds of shades of differences between business models.

My personal feeling is that the wire service model will be around for many years to come. What will change is that it will only be available in a small percentage of florist shops. There will always be a segment of the population willing to pay for a service. Look at lawn cutting. Not so long ago, most people would never think of paying to have someone cut their lawn. Today is very common. Those people paying to have theri lawn cut could save the money, but instead feel it's worth the money.

If for you the wire service model didn't work, God bless. Many other will come to realize it will not work for them. But quit making it seem that those that choose to stay don't know what their doing.

And lastly, ordergatherers will never go away. Look at FTD and 800FLOWERS. Both realize that they need good florists to make their business models work and both realize that a ever growing number of florists are not willing to fill for them, thus making satisifying their customer very uncertain at best. So what are both of them doing. They are marketing to the flower buying consumer and trying to switch them to a non floral gift as a way of controlling the sale. That will not change.

 

[theRKF]

Don't forget the most common complaint - I hear it EVERY week: "I don't get enough incoming orders from XX Wire Service."

Why sign grocery & Wally? The service with most volume to offer wins.

 

[CHR]

Sfox, great reply and Infinite is right in that the majority of shops quit WSs due to lack of incoming orders.

Luc, ideally the even ins to outs can work. More sending than receiving is still better - but that's unlikely to happen for most florists.

Time to re-read the Prince Brothers' report on order gathering.

In our survey, some florists are heavy "senders" and others are heavy "receivers", but the industry average of out-wire transactions should equal 50% in a closed florist system. But "order gatherers" have now changed the equation. Order gatherers comprise business entities that collect floral orders from consumers and businesses and transmit those orders to florists for order fulfillment, but entities that generally do not receive and fulfill floral orders. Since our survey indicates that the industry average of florists’ out-wires is now only 26%, this suggests that florists, on average, have lost about 48% of out-wire transactions to these "order gatherers" (50% - 26%/50% = 48%). This is a substantial portion of florists’ out-going wire transactions that have been commandeered by the "order gatherers". In addition, florist out-wires have declined significantly since 2003 (Table 5), suggesting that these order gatherers have recently made in-roads on florists’ wire sends.

I wholeheartedly agree with their conclusion:

While one can make the argument that the marketing activities of the "order gatherers" actually generate more wire-order sales for florists to fulfill, that argument is not supported by the declining trend in florists’ wire-order sales since 1998. If "order gatherers" were truly generating much more wire orders than the typical florist, then wire-order sales as a percentage of florists’ total sales should show increases across the US florist industry, not declines.

The Prince Brothers are one of the most respected consulting teams in the industry. That last paragraph is in direct contrast to the lines fed to florists and the media by the likes of SAF and the WS flacks.

 

[Joe Mioux]

The OG influence is a problem, but another part of the problem is the excessive fees placed on member florists.

Luc, using your in/out $5000 example, a typical WS florist must send out and additional $1250 outgoing orders, just to break-even on the WS membership.

Here is my reasoning for the $1250...

If you have $250 worth of membership fees, (dues, quality assurance, merc, taxes, etc) and outgoing commission is 20 pct. You need to send an additional $1250 worth of outgoing wires to cover the costs of membship fees. ($250/.20).

However, some WS's (one in particular) strategy is to punish the low sending florist.

Seems just completely backwards.

Last year I dropped FTD at the main store, given these last two months of horrible incoming, 11 orders for Sept, 11 incoming for Oct. I can't see how its possible to remain with FTD at the other store.

The last statement showed 11 incoming orders for @$500. After fees and commissions were subtracted FTD sent me a check for $58!!!!

The days of multiple WS memberships is over.

 

[12BucksFor2Dozon]

.... But at the same time florists like yourself began criticizing any florist who didn't follow your lead. For some the wire service provides some benefits, not many, still some.
...

Just for the record, and although it has been construed otherwise, I *never* intended to criticize any particular florists' decision to be a WS member. My venom is intended for only one group, and that is the actual bloodsucking WSs themselves. THEY, NOT ANY PARTICULAR FLORIST, are 100% to blame for the OOA mess we all find ourselves in...

BACKSTAB #1. They should have NEVER allowed OGs to advertise in other members yellowpages and gather orders that should have stayed local. Them knowingly allowing company XYZ to take an order in (sorry BOSS) Kalamazoo , skim it, and then send it to a Kalamazoo local florist (that otherwise would have got the order and filled it at 100%) minus 27% was bad business and disrespectful to all its members. This, to my own shame, was something I did not know they allowed when I joined TFTD, and can still remember my boiling rage when I saw 3 full-page ads from national OGs when our book first came out, dwarfing my $450/month effort.

What type of BS operation would allow something like that to occur? I seethed...

BACKSTAB #2. As direct shippers have come in to play, instead of working with its loyal members to try to combat this disruptive technology, the wires are abandoning them with their own DS options, at price points THEY KNOW are more appealing to consumers.

What's to like about these guys? The images and self-promoting material they send to make YOUR brand look like theirs? The overpriced technology "solutions" that lock into tech jail, with them as the key holder?

So whatever, people...stop taking my attacks as some personal vendetta against YOUR particular situation. I don't care if you are WS or not.

 

[slcummins]

I'm with you Luc!!! The same tug of war questions I have had for a few years.

Steph

"Incoming orders are one of the biggest problems within this industry today. Why can't others realize that $5000 in incoming orders translates into such a small profit margin and only continues to enable 800 flowers. "Enf of quote

Here is just one of many quotes on Flower chat about filling incoming orders. Seems when you fill you don't make much money. If you send and don't fill you make money. A easy 20%.

SO here are my questions:
1. If you send $5,000.00 worth of orders out and receive $5,000.00 worth in, is'nt that almost like doing $5,000.00 worth of work from customers in your store. You loose 20% and you gain 20%, the only extra % you loose is the 7% marketing. If you do that 5,000.00 worth of orders in your store, you would still have to carry product, containers, labors etc.

2. If we want to send only orders to make money, than Who fills those orders??? THe fairy flower arranger?

I think we object to what the industry has become. A tug of war between wire service and we are right in the middle. DO you feel your hands being pulled by them? Don't you feel your body being stretch by them.
It's a wire service war. THey try to outdo themselves. THey are the one signing the Walmarts and grocery store. THey are the one who are looking to sign anyone that will send with them. They are the one that are causing these low sending amounts to entice consumers their way. THey are like a big box store.
Can't you say to me that those holidays containers they are offering and made in China and mexico etc. that they really cost them lots of money.
I mean, do they think we are stupid. I get product from those countries andthey are as equal or even superior for a fraction of the costs they sell it to us with a profit factored in.
When Teleflora called this week to book Valentine, Easter and Secretaries Day, I did not buy one thing. Neta, Zip, Zero. And I told the guy, that for the price of the containers they are offering, they are too expensive. He tried to BS me about Exclusivity, and style and colors and how it is made. What a load of crap. Now I won't say that I don't always says no to their containers. It is now that some consumers want them and that some are useful enough.
See, i am caught up in the freaking middle again. WE are all....
When your rep calls to sell you somethiing, remember you and the tug of war between service and Hit them back in their bocket book by saying no!

I also like Connie way of thinking....COngrats COnnie to be wire service free and if they need YOU and YOUR WORK...it's time for THEM TO PAY YOU!!!!! a monthly service fee to fill their orders. I dare you to mention to them this:
Sure I will fill your order, THat will be $79,95 monthly fee and how will you be paying for this?

Have fun with it...
Luc

 

[BOSS]

This, to my own shame, was something I did not know they allowed when I joined TFTD, and can still remember my boiling rage when I saw 3 full-page ads from national OGs when our book first came out, dwarfing my $450/month effort.

What type of BS operation would allow something like that to occur? I seethed...

Mark, in all fairness, IMHO it's the YP's fault that THEY allow this type of advertising. We are the ONLY industry in the world (except maybe the pharmacuticles) where this scam can work. I was just offered if I was to buy a full page in the florist catagory, either a free 1/2 or two 1/4's in the same book. Also, I was offered, if I went into a new book I am currently not in, a full page for $151.00/mo, PLUS two FREE 1/2 page or four 1/4 pages ads in any OTHER book I'd like...even yours!

The YP's are the guilty ones, yes the WS's could have stopped it too.

What's to like about these guys? The images and self-promoting material they send to make YOUR brand look like theirs? T

So...I don;t use it...it goes into the dumpster. If a florist is dumb enuf to use it, I hope they are my competitor!

And no buddy...I don;t take your thoughts personally...have a good day!

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Lo and behold.....

after battling with our local YP books for the last 5 years...FINALLY, they have seen the light!!...NO LONGER are national/international OG's in the limelight, and most have been banished permanently IF they don't meet the B&M criteria, AND if they are NOT in our geographical area.
No longer will OUR YP efforts be meaningless behind pages of dOG sites, and false advertisers, and we are guaranteed a spot in the top 5 listings of localized shops!!
We stopped doing business PERIOD with YP, and we continually harassed the vendors, and periodical advertising agencies with OUR side of the story, and CONTINUALLY DEMANDED that OUR issues be "addressed" BEFORE they got our business!!
We are back in.......

 

[12BucksFor2Dozon]

...
No longer will OUR YP efforts be meaningless behind pages of dOG sites, and false advertisers, and we are guaranteed a spot in the top 5 listings of localized shops!!
...

Congrats on fighting a good fight and winning, Mikey...although I still don't exonerate the WS for allowing this to happen.

I mean, really, since you used a pizza analogy before I'll give it a spin...could anyone imagine Pizza Hut allowing a big, established franchisee from, say, Chicago, to advertise in an Orlando YP, take the order, and then send the Orlando shop 73% of the money????

That sort of thing in the franchise world would be completely and totally unfair, probably illegal, yet the members of TFTD find nothing wrong with it.

Duh. Hey its your nickel...

 

[bloomz]

Here's a partially true theoretical scenario.

We long have known the inequity in sending vs filling. We decided some time ago to let incoming go to the other shops in town who want them and went totally after the outgoing.

We have the lion's share of outgoing orders in this town (Free Sending-no relay charge was a great hook when the rest charge $5-10) I would bet we get 90% of them while filling we get 10%. So it's worked.

Forget for a moment that we strive to have a natiowide presence and think locally.

I'm sure the other shops in town think what we do locally is OG-ing (if they even know what that is which I honestly doubt cuz they love filling those incoming) It is.

So is that a negative thing or is it smart?

there will be a quiz at midnite.

 

[goldfish]

WS simulation

Here is just one of many quotes on Flower chat about filling incoming orders. Seems when you fill you don't make much money. If you send and don't fill you make money. A easy 20%.

As a matter of income calculation, the main reasons for the profit disparity between incoming and outgoing orders seem to be: (1) rebate and (2) reciprocity surcharge.

I made a simple Excel simulation (attached) for interested people to play with. In this simulation, I compare the "Gross Profit" in two scenarios: send-only shop and fill-only shop. The "gross Profit" (GP) is defined as follows:

For fill-only shops:
GP = Sales - COGS - reciprocity_fee - low_sending_fee - monthly_fee

For send-only shops:
GP = Sales + rebate + Service_charge - monthly_fee

You may change any of these variables (indicated by red) to see the effect on the chart.

Note that 'labor' is NOT included in this simulation, which is valid when labor is already "paid for" (i.e., your shop didn't hire any extra employees to fill for incoming orders). To see the effect of labor, however, you can simply increase the COGS from 35% (default) to, say, 60%.

With the default setting, you can see that you need about 15 orders to send to break-even while you need about 20 incoming orders to break even (without considering the labor).

If the rebate is $0 and reciprocity surcharge is 0%, you will see the disparity will be gone.

It looks like WS compsnies need a rebate to attract big senders, and are charging the filling florists to pay for the rebate. I think they shoud look for other ways to finance the rebate program, rather than penalizing the filling florists.

 

[NH Floral]

Not All Order Gatherers Are Deceptive

If a "national" advertiser choses to advertise in your Yellow Pages (or anywhere else for that matter), he rightfully and legally can do so - as long as he does not imply that he is a local business.​

To disallow or banish these ads would be to stifle legitimate competition.​

800-Flowers advertises in my Yellow Pages; although they are a national company competing with local florists for market share- there is nothing unfair or deceptive about their Yellow Pages ad.​

Ditto for "bloomstoday" (flowers sent today), "americanblooms" -they have full (and double) page ads.​

I don't LIKE the practice of these businesses advertising in my area, but they are using an 800 phone number (not a "local appearing" phone number that is forwarded without the customer's knowledge).​

They are not using a fictitious "geographic" business name, (i.e. "Concord Florist", "New Hampshire Florist") so I have no leg to stand on to have them banished from my Yellow Pages.​

The OG's who claim to actually deliver in our areas, or misrepresent their physical locations or advertise "Never a Delivery Fee!" are the Order Gatherers we should ask the wire services to shut down ...​

I hope that florists remember to make this distinction when discussing "Order Gatherers". Please don't be too rough on me :buttkick but we need to keep that in mind!​

Valerie​

 

[CHR]

Excellent points, Valerie.

I keep saying the OGs that have their location right on their home page and/or clearly identify that they forward their orders to local florists (and don't hide it in small print on a distant page) are usually legit and legal businesses unless they're skimming delivery charges and order values.

What I do find deceptive in some of the YP ads are 'we serve' followed by a list of local towns. WS rules (unless they've quietly changed) say their affiliates must clearly identify their physical locations if they advertise in areas where they don't directly deliver.

Saying 'we deliver to' specific cities when the orders are really wired to those towns would seem to be clear violations of US trade laws.

 

[fairfield]

Saying 'we deliver to' specific cities when the orders are really wired to those towns would seem to be clear violations of US trade laws.

Unfortunately, laws mean nothing to many without enforcement and the longer the violation goes unpunished, the more acceptable it becomes.

http://www.wesleyberryflowers.com/flowers_anaheim_CA.html

How on earth does a florist like this succeed? Must be doing the right thing.:dunno:

 

[BOSS]

How on earth does a florist like this succeed? Must be doing the right thing.:dunno:

Because in this case in particular, like that of the newly reconstituted Urban Florist the BIG2 are so greedy for volume they allow, encourage and ASSIST it to happen...last I checked 'Ole Wesley had a FTD Template with a TF Shopping Cart....figure that one out!

Wesley is LYING on every web page he has...and the wires continue to help him...he is at the top of my DO NOT FILL FOR list!

 

[CHR]

Fairfield, that Wesley Berry page is a perfect example of pictures of flowers wrapped in Anaheim spam. The term 'Anaheim' is repeated no less than 40 times.

"Top FTD Florist: Anaheim, California Flower Delivery | Anaheim Flower Shops. Send flowers through a local Florist to Anaheim, CA California ! Anaheim , CA California Same day Anaheim , CA California flower delivery. Guaranteed satisfaction and fresh flowers, bouquets, plants, balloons for Valentine's Day delivered directly from a Anaheim, CA California flower shop. Our flower shops send flowers and offer delivery service for birthdays, anniversaries, sympathy and more.Top quality family owned florist since 1946, fast Anaheim , CA California delivery today. We are simply the best and most reliable for flower delivery and freshness. Voted Best Florist!"

To the florists who think the industry would be better off if only 'real florists' could sell wire outs - I think Wesley Berry's site is a perfect example of why that's simple not true. It would just shift more dollars to the 'real florist dOGs'.

(Sorry for the bold. The cut & paste from his site won't stop screaming.)

 

[12BucksFor2Dozon]

{...still patiently waiting for an example of another national franchise chain that not only allows but PROMOTES other franchisees to advertise in other franchisee "regions", and then skim 27% (+ rebate, no less) and gives the leftovers for the local franchisee (same brand name) to fill...}

I think I'll be waiting a long, long time. Valerie I guess I am glad someone here on FC is competing on that level but it still disgusts me that TFTD allows this despicable, anti-competitive practice to occur.

 

[Kristine]

If a "national" advertiser choses to advertise in your Yellow Pages (or anywhere else for that matter), he rightfully and legally can do so - as long as he does not imply that he is a local business.​

In our local yellow pages we see in LITTLE BITTY print where they are located such as: sc, ca where is THAT?

To disallow or banish these ads would be to stifle legitimate competition.​

800-Flowers advertises in my Yellow Pages; although they are a national company competing with local florists for market share- there is nothing unfair or deceptive about their Yellow Pages ad.​

Ditto for "bloomstoday" (flowers sent today), "americanblooms" -they have full (and double) page ads.​

I don't LIKE the practice of these businesses advertising in my area, but they are using an 800 phone number (not a "local appearing" phone number that is forwarded without the customer's knowledge).​

They are not using a fictitious "geographic" business name, (i.e. "Concord Florist", "New Hampshire Florist") so I have no leg to stand on to have them banished from my Yellow Pages.​

The OG's who claim to actually deliver in our areas, or misrepresent their physical locations or advertise "Never a Delivery Fee!" are the Order Gatherers we should ask the wire services to shut down ...​

I hope that florists remember to make this distinction when discussing "Order Gatherers". Please don't be too rough on me :buttkick but we need to keep that in mind!​

Valerie​

Most big OG's don't even list where they are located and now we see FTD and TF with their own yp ad pushing their web sites.

I also draw the line on the major OG saying we're in your neighborhood. where is that?

One yellow book is blatantly pushing the bounds of our deceptive listings law, but nothing is done.

 

[NH Floral]

Inka

In our local yellow pages we see in LITTLE BITTY print where they are located such as: sc, ca where is THAT?

I would consider those ads deceptive because:

Accurate information in the text may not remedy a false headline because reasonable consumers may glance only at the headline. Written disclosures or fine print may be insufficient to correct a misleading representation.

I also draw the line on the major OG saying we're in your neighborhood. where is that?

I view those as deceptive and misleading also. Under the Federal Consumer Protection Act, a consumer need not actually be confused or misled if the ad is found to have the capacity to mislead or deceive.

It may seem like slow progress, but I think we are finally getting the wire services to understand that they can also be liable for deceptive advertisements, because they are helping disseminate the false information. I should have more information on that shortly.

It is well established that companies can be held liable if they provide others with the "means and instrumentalities" for engaging in deceptive conduct.

It IS frustrating, but maybe the tables are turning - keep tuned....

Valerie