Order Gatherers Exposed

[Dorothy]

Let's face it, a very real debate about OGs exists. In general: good vs bad; smart business extension vs fake online florist; skimmer vs "honestflorist" and the list goes on and on.

Flower shop - and I mean the real deal - owners need to ask themselves these questions:

1. When does an OG cross the line and become a DOG? (I think it has much more to do with business ethics, nevermind skimming which is a given).
2. How willing am I - either through naiveté or full knowledge - to support the OGs or DOGs (ie. receive orders from them, whether through commission-based WS or not)?
3. As a flower shop owner considering ways to really get back our own out-of-town orders, primarily coming into our community, via the Internet, to increase the bottom line, how far am I willing on the other hand to pursue orders that honestly (from a consumer perspective, if they knew better) should really be going to another fellow florist in the destined delivery location, which ultimately helps to support not only that florist but that community's local economic vibrancy/existence? (I am NOT talking here about orders passed on directly to florists without commissions).

My concern for the floral industry in general (ie. real flower shops) is that as more online businesses and even local florists jump on this bandwagon to become OGs, the more ghost towns we'll start to see across the US and in Canada. And, if we all adopted this surefire income generating "send" strategy - which, in effect over time, will most certainly cause flower shops to close their doors because they just don't have the revenue any longer to support their businesses - as many others have said in different posts, who will fill all these orders that are gathered? Is the alternative drop ship? If that became the norm then all the shops that jumped on the OG bandwagon and don't have warehouses will go out of business in the end anyway. Or maybe they'll just join WS OGs like Red Rose Floral, where the owner is based in Germany, with affiliates in their homes and on farmlands in the middle of nowhere (ironically they call the actual florist that fills the order an "affiliate" too, and a "chosen" one at that) anywhere in the world. Sure those affiliates are making money now, but realistically there's only so much $ floating around and the dividable amount will only decrease as more businesses startup or become OGs.

I wonder what it would be like to live in a nice house in Victoria, BC, in the guise of providing a 24-hr "floral" service by "Our Mom & Pop shop [that] continues to grow…" to consumers around the world. Sit back, press a button, make a phone call, and watch the money roll in.... Attractive visual/goal until and unless you think about the bigger picture. That is if you have conscience (Something that is sorely lacking in a capitalist society).

The real mom and pop shops are struggling. If they/we want to stay in business through this economic crisis we MUST find a way to work together and support one another, which will ultimately make it a little harder for the OGs (whether you think they're good guys or bad guys) to take over your territory. Kinda like the farmers who supported each other during the Great Depression....They didn't hesitate to help each other in whatever way they could so that they'd all have a better chance at surviving not only the crisis but in the long run as well. What a simple, do-able, notable concept. Win-Win? Hmmm...something to think about.

 

[theRKF]

And, if we all adopted this surefire income generating "send" strategy

who will fill all these orders that are gathered

the shops that jumped on the OG bandwagon and don't have warehouses will go out of business

Sit back, press a button, make a phone call, and watch the money roll in....

I'm just going to deal with a few of your points.

1. Surefire income: In what world is anything surefire income? Pls let Greg Katz and your neighbour from Urban Florist about this surefire income.
2. The OGs are already drop-shipping, or feeding their orders to drop-ship fulfilment houses. Those who do have a revenue stream are not going to just shutdown once fulfilment via florists becomes a problem.
3. See #2
4. You have a remarkably misguided view of the work involved in marketing floral orders.

 

[lizardqueen]

My belief is that the only way we as florists can overcome the OG is through customer education. I fill OG orders, but I spend the extra few minutes calling them and getting more $$$ for the order, whether for 'delivery fees' or not. They have it, so I ask for it. Most give it, some don't.

It is the downfall for the florist, although I do NOT want to sabatoge an OG order because it is BAD for the floral industry. Grapevine has it that one reason OG's went to drop-ship is because florists refused to fill cheap orders, rejected them, and OG's had to resort to drop-ship to stay competitive. It amazes me how many new OG's appear almost daily. The OG only sends out, and the wire rate is less than HALF of what we pay. No wonder there are so many.

 

[Dorothy]

I'm just going to deal with a few of your points.

1. Surefire income: In what world is anything surefire income? Pls let Greg Katz and your neighbour from Urban Florist about this surefire income.
2. The OGs are already drop-shipping, or feeding their orders to drop-ship fulfilment houses. Those who do have a revenue stream are not going to just shutdown once fulfilment via florists becomes a problem.
3. See #2
4. You have a remarkably misguided view of the work involved in marketing floral orders.

Hopefully my posts will inspire others with so-called "misguided" thoughts/opinions to at least voice their concerns about things that matter to them. I really don't see anything wrong with the ideal of flower shops becoming a unified front, which was the main point of my post.

1. I should have put quotation marks around "surefire income" - that was a sarcastic remark
2. & 3. It's obvious that OGs are drop-shipping already and I was talking about the businesses that place their bet on becoming an OG but can't do dropship because they didn't plan for that and I think I did say that the alternative for them is to join bigger outfits like Red Rose
4. See intro above

 

[Eric S]

Hopefully my posts will inspire others with so-called "misguided" thoughts/opinions to at least voice their concerns about things that matter to them.

We are all here Dorthy.

Lets just call it the Underground of the Underground.

 

[Rhonda]

My belief is that the only way we as florists can overcome the OG is through customer education. I fill OG orders, but I spend the extra few minutes calling them and getting more $$$ for the order, whether for 'delivery fees' or not. They have it, so I ask for it. Most give it, some don't.

It is the downfall for the florist, although I do NOT want to sabatoge an OG order because it is BAD for the floral industry. Grapevine has it that one reason OG's went to drop-ship is because florists refused to fill cheap orders, rejected them, and OG's had to resort to drop-ship to stay competitive. It amazes me how many new OG's appear almost daily. The OG only sends out, and the wire rate is less than HALF of what we pay. No wonder there are so many.

But, those OG's that drop ship can not ever do same day delivery if it's to an area where they have been refused over and over again (like my little town). Same day delivery goes out the door. I do realize it's different for urban areas and you must adapt - if you can get the amount you need (and educate the recipient?) Great!

 

[bloomz]

I wonder what it would be like to live in a nice house in Victoria, BC, in the guise of providing a 24-hr "floral" service by "Our Mom & Pop shop [that] continues to grow…" to consumers around the world. Sit back, press a button, make a phone call, and watch the money roll in.... Attractive visual/goal until and unless you think about the bigger picture. That is if you have conscience (Something that is sorely lacking in a capitalist society).

No conscience huh?

Funny, I find mine intact and working.

Ryan covered the major points quite well.

But the rest of it is riddled with dreamy baloney

Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, just naive...but those "misguided" thoughts and opinions have been coming up ad nauseum for well over 10-15 years. (gee how would bloomz know that?)



Don't forget - "all we are saying, is give peace a chance."

 

[duanermb]

I'm just going to deal with a few of your points.

1. Surefire income: In what world is anything surefire income? Pls let Greg Katz and your neighbour from Urban Florist about this surefire income.
2. The OGs are already drop-shipping, or feeding their orders to drop-ship fulfilment houses. Those who do have a revenue stream are not going to just shutdown once fulfilment via florists becomes a problem.
3. See #2
4. You have a remarkably misguided view of the work involved in marketing floral orders.

1. Cmon, obviously she was being sarcastic.
2. And? Who cares, let them drop ship. Are Real Florists not better anyway, or do we not believe our own press releases? Drop ship customers are not our customers. If they are they will convert when they see what they sent to their mother.
3. The OGs will eventually get taken care of by solid internet and printed advertising and tax legislation. Consumers will also become aware.
4. I disagree. Dorothy is talking about the broken WS business model, not what it takes to market an order.

Vision:

Send out X amount of orders for 20% commission - Receive X amount of orders back less 20% commission. Provide a service to your customers.

The above vision is what the trailblazers had in mind when they started it. The business model broke when Order Gathering started outside of that vision.

Broken Model:

Send out X amount of orders for 20% commission - Receive X+Y amount of orders back less 20% commission. Provide a service to your customers at your expense.

1990 - 50,000 florists
2000 - 30,000 florists
2009 - 16,000 florists and dropping...

I wish the OG she is talking about would get the F&%$ out of my town too. Business is business, but the false advertising and misleading localities really get me uptight, and you know for a fact that florists don't want to be listed on your web pages without proper contact information. (Great, you told them what postal code they are in...)

(I see that bloomz just posted, and is in complete agreement with me) :rofl:

Thinking on this lately, I am not really sure if my RAGE is brought on by being in this business, or being a consumer myself. I am actually starting to think that its the latter. (Of course not in flowers, but perhaps we have all been duped at one time or another...)

Anyway, the clock is ticking, and we will be here long after they are wiped out of the SERPs.

 

[Dorothy]

Thank you Duane. Nice to see you and others have the guts to stick up for what you believe in.

My hubby and I have been talking about this – a lot. He’s in the entertainment industry so he has a take on this from that perspective, which can also be applied to the floral industry.

An agent is an agent is an agent. Nothing wrong with being an agent – they’re a necessary evil for many entertainers who require their services on a regular basis. They pay a price for using agents to get jobs but they know that upfront.

If a consumer calls to hire any old magician – they just want A MAGICIAN – that’s fine, their expectations are not that they’ll get Criss Angel for $700 bucks. A good agent conveys this to the person they’re selling the contract to.

What can and does happen, though, is that agent may negotiate the ‘gig’ at a higher price and then in turn hire the entertainer for much less than he should be. But the hired entertainer doesn’t know anything about it. The entertainer provides what he knows is the value of the gig based on what he is getting paid (before the agent’s fee), “a suitcase” gig,. Trouble happens when the person/company who actually paid for the performance is irate when he sees what he got (with the entertainer right there onsite, not the agent): “I paid $1500 bucks for this! What is this crap?!” Now it’s the entertainer’s reputation on the line. Does the agent care? Not really.

However, once the entertainer’s reputation is on the line, the entertainer will choose to drop the agent, move to another reputable agent or he may become a “free agent” and not use any agent ever again.

This is where the floral industry is facing the fork in the road – now that consumers and florists are finally catching on to this Internet “thing”. The agents all over the Internet are allowing – no, not just allowing, they’re banking on - consumers believing that whoever they are placing the order with is 1. also providing the product/delivery, or 2. the agent has a ‘network of hand-picked florists who will take care of their order EXACTLY like what they ordered’. There are too many agents out there not advertising true value to begin with, they charge too much for service fees, they don’t disclose the real value received for the order, and they’re not giving the proper value to the florist who is required to create this “great” product for Aunt Nellie or Grandma Pearl. And the agents don’t really care about the complaints that come rolling in afterwards because they still have another billion unsuspecting consumers to take advantage of.

Local, reputable real florists don’t run their businesses that way. In any medium, print, radio/tv or Internet, a real florist always advertises truthfully: Where they are located; What they will do; How they will do it; When they’ll deliver; and most importantly Why they always guarantee their product/service (because that’s how they run their business). Until the OGs, DOGs came along, this business model worked fine. Build up a solid business and clientele and be around for years to come.

Just because OGs have bent all the rules - mostly because governments all over the world are still playing catch up with the Internet and florists have been sucked in by the OGs - doesn’t mean that florists have to play the OGs’ game forever, which only helps them to line their pockets at the expense of not only florists but the general public at large. Nor should they.

Customers are worth way more than that!

 

[bloomz]

. Does the agent care? Not really.

And the agents don’t really care about the complaints that come rolling in afterwards because they still have another billion unsuspecting consumers to take advantage of.

Customers are worth way more than that!

Those first two statements are just, well, silly::BS

And totally negated by that closing line.

Sorry, just gotta stick up for what I believe in....

 

[Bigted]

Dorothy, you seem to have thought a lot about this--like most of us. The reality is, none of us knows where this industry is going. The number of shops is declining. While the WS don't think it is a problem as long as they have coverage, I believe it hurts a lot. Get rid of the little town shops that provide that great local service, and you hurt the industry. Same with drop ship. Yes, people can still get flowers. The point is, they will want them less and less because the emotion is gone--and that's what we sell.

I think that point is important--call centers, ordering online, direct ship, big box stores strip out the very essence of why we exist. It can't continue forever.

The next generation prefers to order online because they are so familiar with it. Unfortunately, they lose the whole experience of going in the shop and getting that warm feeling when you're ordering flowers.

I know I'm rambling. I guess what I am saying is that you have to do what's necessary to keep your orders, but most importantly, keep giving your customers the good experience that they really want. The OG's will sort themselves out as the public becomes more aware.

 

[goldfish]

1. When does an OG cross the line and become a DOG? (I think it has much more to do with business ethics, nevermind skimming which is a given).

An OG crosses the line when it violates certain written rules. But even then, there are a lot of gray areas, because people interpret written rules differently.

"Ethics" is not a good guideline, as everyone's ethics is different.

2. How willing am I - either through naiveté or full knowledge - to support the OGs or DOGs (ie. receive orders from them, whether through commission-based WS or not)?

We don't discriminate against certain senders (we used to). All we do is to make sure, if we can, that an order hasn't been skimmed. Paradoxically, it's easier to do this with OG orders on the Internet, than orders from independent florists.

For example, Cambridge Flowers advertises "Free delivery." We demand they must add back our delivery charge before wiring an order to us, or we will reject it. They comply most of the time.

The real mom and pop shops are struggling. If they/we want to stay in business through this economic crisis we MUST find a way to work together and support one another, which will ultimately make it a little harder for the OGs (whether you think they're good guys or bad guys) to take over your territory.

"Territory"? We are located in Huntington NY. I never considered our town as our "territory" though. If a florist 20-miles away can market in our town (and they do), OGs can do that, too, as long as they don't deceive customers. I think that's just the rule of the game. No local business should be protected just because we are local.

 

[duanermb]

"Territory"? We are located in Huntington NY. I never considered our town as our "territory" though. If a florist 20-miles away can market in our town (and they do), OGs can do that, too, as long as they don't deceive customers. I think that's just the rule of the game. No local business should be protected just because we are local.

There will always be competition - deceiving customers is the issue.

 

[kt4ye]

Those first two statements are just, well, silly::BS

And totally negated by that closing line.

Sorry, just gotta stick up for what I believe in....

OK...

The statement you feel is silly was just a paraphrase of the PT Barnum (?) statement that "a sucker's born every minute." You have also alluded to similar things when you've noted how many customers are "asleep at the wheel."

According to Yahoo and Google customer satisfaction scores, FTD, TF and 1800FLOWERS (the biggest players with the best known names and largest advertising expenditures) all have scores hovering around 1 1/2 stars (out of 5.) Since I started monitoring them 3 years ago, the scores have DROPPED a full star.

The implication of these thoughts seems to be that , "Anything goes as long as I can make a buck. And if I don't do it, somebody else will. And there's an infinite number of customers to draw upon, so it doesn't matter if I cut a few corners."

So order gathering entities keep on truckin' with no discernable (positive) change in their business practices.

Well, there IS one discernable chamge. After a century of growth, the market size of the ENTIRE US floral market is shrinking. Here's why I believe this is happening:

An average US consumer buys flowers 1.7 times per year. He/She has no established preference. So, the consumer -- like most of us -- chooses a "brand name" for his floral source.

When the results are poorer than expected, he may choose another "brand name" and, perhaps one more. At the end of this purchasing pattern, the consumer thinks, "Well, I tried ALL THE BEST FLOWER SOURCES and got 'ripped off' each time. I guess flowers just aren't a good idea for gift giving."

And they stop buying flowers.

If enough folks do that, the market size shrinks.

Recognize that flowers are purchased using discretionary dollars, and add in a crummy economy and we have the makings of an economic cleansing whose size may be difficult to imagine.

Teleflora will have an ad on TV for the Superbowl today. This may be the modern day floral equivalent of re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Opinions may vary. Ethics shouldn't.

All the best,

Bill

 

[BOSS]

as long as they don't deceive customers.

And there in lies the cruxt of the matter.