sending vs filling and the flower business

[jbarb]

On a regular basis we see posts about the fact that the money is in sending. Don't encourage filling. Don't support incoming orders by having ads in the directories, toll free numbers, etc.etc. And yet nearly every one of the posts talk about how well the do with either FTD keepsakes or TF keepsakes depending on their favorite. I think that this business is really getting turned up side down. If everyone is sending and no one (or at least no quality shops) are filling then at some point the whole concept is going to come crashing down.
I am curious as to why any one that is critical of filling wire orders would even carry the keepsakes?
Now don't get me wrong. I agree that there is no money in filling wire orders. I'm just find it interesting that so many of the big shops go on and on about how all the money is in sending. Well someone has to fill those orders so that the big senders can make money. I also have found it interesting that as soon as I call FTD or TF and tell them that I am dropping all directory advertising etc. They start wanting to make deals, which tells me that most of the WS members are paying more than they should for the services.
I personally think that this whole low send fee and low reciprocity fee is a total load of cr*p and something that I won't pay.
I won't even go into the whole selection guide nonsense again. But I still find it interesting that those shops that support the selection guides are the ones the are the most critical about incomings. Seems to me that the focus should be on making BOTH incoming and outgoing profitable.

I do know that they days of carrying keepsakes in my shop have come to an end. They just don't make sense to carry. You can not make any money on a keepsake that is a WS order. Just can't happen. So those are out the door.

Anyway just some thougts on the subject. I would like to see the florists in this business get together on this and start making it work for the shops that are filling. We do very little sending here. Most of the people that live here are retired and they just don't send flowers. I also don't do a tremendous amount of filling as a percentage of my total business but I do enough.

Jim

 

[theRKF]

Speaking from a sender's perspective:

We send about 3:1 over our incoming. That's a function of having a good-sized client base and 200 other shops in the city to dillute the incoming flow.

We carry the keepsakes because we advertise them, and sell them to our own customers, and because TF advertises them and people ask. We get very few incoming orders for keepsakes (most of those undervalued), and that's fine. We'll selling at 100% to our customers.

Filling is something we do happily, because people fill our orders. That's how it was supposed to work, once upon a time. Just don't ask me to send a Kinkade Village keepsake for $50 incl delivery. Our outgoing orders are generally high $$ and designer's choice. You know best what you have in store and what your store DOES best. Just make us look good, cuz we'll make YOU look good when you send to us.

Wire's will never make or break our shop, OUR customers will. We didn't pay FTD for the selection guide, we don't pay for directory ads - it's bad business to advertise for discounted orders - that's a sucker's play. We'll take what comes, and happily fill it.

It shouldn't get much more complicated than that, right?

 

[Tom]

The point is that it is counterproductive to spend money for directory advertising to get MORE incoming.
The "keepsakes"?
There is no Coca-Cola, Ford, Serta, or Frito-Lay in this business to do national advertising for the products we sell locally. The wire services do the best they can with the dollars available to promote the products they develop. It's up to us to follow through and supply those products for our customers. These are products that we can sell to our local customers for local delivery as well as for delivery far away.
We can mass-produce them. The customers recognize them.
The Selection Guide?
Much of the same applies. It's a great tool to have available, and certainly something that we could not produce for many times the price we pay the wire service. We use it for local orders as well as for wire-outs. A majority of our established customers just give us a price to work with and leave it up to us. We've earned the trust. The newer customer needs some idea of what's what. Today's consumer is not comfortable plunking down $40 or $50 and letting the florist choose what to send. They want to see something first. They need to know what they're buying. There are so many ripoffs out there today that I don't blame them!

 

[GFLORAL]

Our shop is not a big shop and we don't encourage wire ins either. That does not mean that we will not fill wire ins. Just because a shop does not encourage wire ins has nothing to do with if they will fill them or not.

Now about the selection guides. Well what is whong with them? If you have them use them. They help show the customer what is being sent on the other side. If used correctly they can be a great asset. By used correctly I mean that the customer should know about substitutions, time taken to get flowers in a particular arrangment if not avaliable, etc.

It just doesn't make that much business sense to spend money every month to advertise discounted orders when that money could be used to generate 100% orders.

As far as the keepsakes are concerned you should always make money on them? I know lots of florist will blindly sell the keepsake arrangments for their suggested retail price and that is just wrong. You have to sell them for what will make you a profit. Like our Golden Angel Hurricales from Tel was Suggested for $50. 00 but for use to make a decent profit we sold them for $57.95.

Again it just makes no sense to pay money to get more discounted orders

 

[jbarb]

The problem that I have with the selection guide is that it does not pay for itself. This only refers to FTD since I don't pay for the TF one. Since the new FTD selection guide came out I have recieved 3 orders that were guide specific and I have not sent a single one. The TF sends are about 50% out of the book but my customers look at the FTD book and close it, then go pick something out of the TF book. The point here is that we pay a lot of money for something that is geared around sending and filling wire service orders. At the rate that I send out selection guide specific orders I will not have paid for this book by the time the new one comes out in two years. We spend so much time focusing on the discounted flowers yet we let the ws's get away with things like the selection guide, the monthly directory charge (yes, FTD charges a monthly fee of $4.95 for the directory) the international directory which is really a joke since all of that information is already in the regular directory and on and on. It seems to me that the least of the problems are the discounted orders.
I agree that you should never sell a keepsake if you are not making money on it. But I don't have time to send an ASK for every single keepsake order that comes over the system saying that I want more money. It's not worth the bother. Even at $57.50 for the hurricane, the margin is so low that it is hardly worth taking the time to do it. Not when you figure that the retail on just the hard goods alone not even including flowers, greens and labor is $21. Back out the perishables, the labor and the disount on a WS order and your maybe pulling in what $5?

I'm not trying to get into a debate here on the pros and cons of keepsakes, selection guides etc. I'm really speaking more to the point of what we as florists are doing to the industry. Senders can only send if there are fillers willing to fill and if the fillers that are filling are not doing a good job then eventually the whole thing will come crashing down. I for one do believe that we get business from the fills that we do. Our direct orders were up this month by 37% over last year. We keep track of the orders that are repeat and/or orders that we have made a delivery to from the WS's. So far we are getting a good return on our money by filling these orders. I am sure that at some point the curve will top out and the majority of the local customer base will know we are here and then the numbers will change, but as it is right now filling incoming orders is paying off.
And yes I totally agree that it does not pay to advertise for the discounted orders. I don't advertise in the FTD directory and the one that is in the TF book was a freebie that will end the next time around. Nearly all of our TF orders are done on the Dove anyway. I let them put the ad in because it was free and I wanted to see what would happen. And as was expected, there was no significant change in the numbers but I wanted to track that anyway.

 

[Tom]

Jim... you really don't think that you're paying for the TF Selection Guide? Really??

 

[jbarb]

well let's put it this way, I don't get a bill for $300 for the selection guide. But all in all, I pay the same monthly fee for both TF and FTD. I do not get charged a monthly fee for the directory. I do not get a separate charge for the international directory, I do not have to fight with TF about low send fees. So apples to apples, no I do not pay for the selection guide.

Jim

 

[BOSS]

How often is the TF SG updated ?? every 5-7 years ??

FTD produces a new one every 2 years....

Costs a bunch, to keep designs current...yes, perhaps it works better in different parts of the country...I just got mine in August, like everyone else, and have already had to have a new cover shipped, as it was already worn out....

Go figure....

 

[GFLORAL]

At $57.95 we made a nice profit on the hurricanes. Of course I am talking about 100% orders not wire ins. I believe that the profit margin is too low on ANY wire ins and that is what the wire outs are supposed to help off set.

If you don't have ads and such (or soon will not) are you not also doing the sames things that the "Big Senders" are doing to help not get as many wire ins. That must mean you are not gonna fill any orders and if you do it will not be quality work????? I know that is not true but that is what you seem to be implying.

The first post you seem to want to put down the "big senders" because they don't make it easy for other florists to wire to them because they don't publish their 1-800-numbers or have big ads. Then you seem to be upset about the fact that they like their selection guides and use them and that they carry keepsakes (which 90% of ours are local 100% orders not wire ins).


Then in your next post you say we need people willing to fill and do a good job when they fill an order. Well, I believe anyone that posts on this or other messageboard will fill your order and I hope they will do a good job. Now, if your order is not fillable because it is too inexpensve or has particualt flowers with no second choice then I must forward or reject that order but I would do the same with a customer also, I would not be able to fill their order either if the want too much for too little or something I couldn't get in the time frame avaliable.

I don't know of you mean what seem to come out of your post but it seems like you think that if a florist is critical of the wire ins than they just don't do them or do a bad job of it.

 

[jbarb]

Gfloral, I think that you are missing my point. Or I'm just not doing a very good job of making it. I'm not being critical of the big senders or the fillers. All I am saying is that in the current culture of wire services we seem to have created an out of balance situation with the send vs fill situation. Everyone talks about send, send, send and in many cases there have been posts on some of the boards that go so far as to call fillers stupid because they fill. So what I was talking about is the fact that the people that feel this way have no problem sending out orders but they can only send them if there is someone to fill them. My point about the advertising was agreeing with most everyone that the advertising does not pay for it self. Not that I am discouraging fill orders. It is that the directory ads do not pay for themselves. As you can see from my post, I feel that the wire ins that we get are beneficial.
And No I do not think that if you discourage wire ins, that you do not do a good job. I'm simply stating that we need to turn this around so that it is equally profitable from both sides. As an industry it should not be more profitable to send than to fill. It should be equal.

 

[URememberd]

I'm probably gonna get yelled at a lot for this, but I believe it should be a 90/10 split rather than 80/20 to give the filling florist a little more to work with. It would mean less money for the big senders, but they would also be making a little more on the incomings that they hate so much (due to no $) If they charge a wire fee, which I believe most do, that added to the 10% would still all be profit for all of us, as well as making at least enough to cover our a**es on the incoming. Just my opinion

 

[theRKF]

Cue Mr Plumley ...

 

[Peter1]

...

Originally posted by Infinite
Cue Mr Plumley ...

Thanks Ryan,

Blossoms Network has supported the 90/10 option for quite some time, and believe it or not, it's not been a popular idea out there. Currently we have remained with the 80-20, since the majority of shops aren't open to the idea. (Ever try to reinvent the wheel?) We would be happy to support the 90/10 option if more people would support us in this concept. With a clearing house fee (ours is 5%). Which is better than TF's at 7-10%

 

[bloomz]

I send way more than I fill, fill only for real florists, but do nothing to encourage ins. I USE the selectin guide and probably 90% of my sends are from the selection guide. (granted that is what is on my web site, so...) But a picture tells a thousand words and I encourage walkin customers to look at it and choose, that way they also can be left alone to their sticker shock AND get a realistic view of prices of flowers nowadays. But they choose from it more often than not.
I don't DIScourage wire ins and much as I don't ENcourage them. If you send one to me, we will do a good job and fill to value, BECAUSE we don't encourage them, I don't have to worry about a bad balance and be a COGS wizard.
But this being sad but true, people join wire services to GET ORDERS. As they drop from filling too many or burning out, another comes along to fill their place, and the ws's are right there to sign them at (for FREE sometimes? at least that's what they say)
I don't think we are going to run out of fillers just because I can see that is not where my bread is buttered. The shop down the street from me fills any and all (while complaining about it), and sometimes when I don't have pink roses say - I can send the order to them (they do do a good job) and they thank me for the order. If I run out of a keepsake, the other shops in town are happy for me to send them the order. I get enuf to fill for my local customers but when I run out I am out, and they would rather have the order than sell me the keepsake to fill myself, so...(don't worry, I am not losing the "chance to get my product into homes" - I don't buy that bull anyway)
The balance is ALL scrude up, granted, but there are more every day to fill them...and the most asked question to a wire service rep? "How do I get more orders?" go figure!
bloomz

 

[Peter1]

....

Originally posted by bloomz
But this being sad but true, people join wire services to GET ORDERS. As they drop from filling too many or burning out, another comes along to fill their place, and the ws's are right there to sign them at (for FREE sometimes? at least that's what they say)

The balance is ALL scrude up, granted, but there are more every day to fill them...and the most asked question to a wire service rep? "How do I get more orders?" go figure!
bloomz

Yes many people sign up for those reasons, and of course it's a service for their customers to be able to send flowers out of town, this was before people started using the Internet to send their orders. There still remains a large group of the population that doesn't "trust" the net to do business. This will change over time as the Internet age kids grow up and feel at ease with it (the children who grew up with it in their homes)

(We don't charge shops for signing up, we feel shops have been paying enough already). Too many other companies believe in punishing Florists for not sending enough orders, well it's not their fault if their local market doesn't have a lot of orders to send out etc, that to me is STUPID. (The Florist shouldn't be punished for trying) Of course Urban shops will send more orders most of the time because there are more people to send.

Many shops have lost the whole point of WS's and as you put it, they want the "how do I get more orders" , many shops out there need to be focusing on building their local "brand" first. If they successfully market to their local customers they won't have to worry about high Incoming numbers, because they will have more local sales. A WS is simply another service a shop can provide their local customer with in my opinion. It's all about shops doing more to market to the local man and woman on the street. In my humble opinion anyway.

 

[BOSS]

If no body fills, NO BODY can send...simple as that...

What is needed is a return to parity within the membership, and "Qualification" for membership, ala 1975....

IMHO....of course....

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Oh yea SURE BOSS...

let's re-instate the TELEX machine too!!
This is a run and hide business!! many shop owners/operators "hide" in the florist biz, because, it takes little to become part of the industry, never mind you're no ****ed good at it!!
I agree with the above, and am expecting self governing changes in the next 20 years, where, you HAVE to be qualified to represent the industry...those against this concept, shouldn't be IN the business!!
In my very humble and determined opinion!!...
Mike

 

[Peter1]

......

Originally posted by BOSS
If no body fills, NO BODY can send...simple as that...

What is needed is a return to parity within the membership, and "Qualification" for membership, ala 1975....

IMHO....of course....

There needs to be a Qualification required for shops to belong to a WS's of choice, and as I've said in the past in some cases, depending on your area the qualification can be different, it has to be judged on a case by case basis. When doing shop vist, we have a standard grading system.

We've had all kinds of people who want to sign up, people like who run skimmer web sites, and realtors who want to run a website and be a member, my question was to that person was, how will you fill a incoming order, the person didn't have a answer, if you dont' have any product etc kinda hard to be a Real Florist. I refuse to sign supermarkets,regardless even if they have a full size shop located in the market. More companies should say NO to them also, but seem to lack the courage to do the right thing opposed to the easy thing.

 

[Peter1]

Re: Oh yea SURE BOSS...

Originally posted by Mikey the Flower Guy
let's re-instate the TELEX machine too!!
This is a run and hide business!! many shop owners/operators "hide" in the florist biz, because, it takes little to become part of the industry, never mind you're no ****ed good at it!!
I agree with the above, and am expecting self governing changes in the next 20 years, where, you HAVE to be qualified to represent the industry...those against this concept, shouldn't be IN the business!!
In my very humble and determined opinion!!...
Mike

Awww yes the Telex machine, I remember those big nasty things.

If shops are qualified in each State and Province, you would see a HUGE reduction in unhappy customers, happier shop owners, and more profitable shops, and less of those in lieu of flower statements for funerals. For my obit or for family members, I'm going to have In lieu of donations, SEND FLOWERS!

 

[BBJ (Big Bad John)]

Re: Re: Oh yea SURE BOSS...

Originally posted by Peter1
For my obit or for family members, I'm going to have In lieu of donations, SEND FLOWERS!

You won't be the first......I've seen it before and as a matter of fact the Obituary for the Late Margaret Goddard (Allen's Flowers by les etes) December 28th Ottawa Citizen reads "Although flowers are preffered, those who wish may make memorial donations to the Kemptville district hospital Tribute Fund."