Sympathy Design

[RWK]

I tried uploading these into the member gallery and it was not successful, So I am going to post them here.

I had to help out a shop today with a huge influx of sympathy work. One of the designs they needed was a pool/billards design. THe decedent was an avid nine-ball player.

This is the design I created for them.

I took a sheet of styrofoam, cut it into a rectangular shape, covered it with a peice of green felt cloth. I then edged it in a brown satin ribbon and placed black ribbon shapes on the corners and sides to represent the pockets.

I cut and glued wood-toned painted stryrofoam into a diamond rack shape and put nine carnations inside the rack....each carnation painted to represent the nine colors of the pool balls. A white carnation was placed for the cue ball.
The clusters at the top and bottom corners were composed of mixed foliages with green cymbiums and green hypericum. Finally, I used tape covered wire to attach the decedent's pool cue to the design.

 

[TGDragonfly]

You forgot to hot glue a beer mug!

Awesome work, that's hot.

 

[rsef]

What a great tribute!

 

[jamese]

Clever use of materials, I would give it a 5!
E.P.

 

[HeatherTuckey]

Great design - love it!

We have trouble making profits on designs like these. I was wondering how you all do? Just the other day we did an "eagles" logo in carnations. From the beginning the sales girl explained that the cheapest it could be was $350, and that would only be 24" long, not many carnations, that most of the value goes toward labor, as it is a very labor intensive item to design. She recommended we do a very large fireside basket, incorporating an eagles jersey or other eagles item. We told her for the $ it would be much more showy.
The customer insisted on a custom form, spelling out EAGLES.
As it turned out it was close to 36" (not 24"), exactly the same "font" of the Eagles logo, same green, edged in black ribbon. Took my brother (the art minor), a good hour to draw out and carve (hard to carve, almost a cursive looking font). Then another designer about an hour making. I would say about 120 carns, the stryofoam, ribbon, easel, etc.

We got a call that it "fell apart" and she was mortified. I knew this did not happen until the funeral director moved it. My driver set it up and told them not to move it, b/c it was quite fragile, due to the thinness of the style of the logo.

So after I determined that the funeral director attempted to move it to the graveside service - she said "well it was just not worth $400". I corrected her and said "$350 plus delivery and 6% sales tax". In the end, I gave her 25% back ($87.50)... so we made nothing. Not even sure we made anything before I had to credit her.

I would love to know how you all quote these custom jobs. And do you give the designer a time frame to complete?

 

[felicityflowers]

I would love to know how you all quote these custom jobs. And do you give the designer a time frame to complete?

I've only done a few of these detailed pieces and I tell the customer before we take payment that since it is a custom piece of floral art that we do not offer refunds or adjustments and due to the fragility of the piece there are problems that can occur that are BEYOND OUR CONTROL (*cough* heavy handed funeral directors *cough*) and because of this we will photograph the piece upon delivery and that is how we guarantee it.

Saves from after delivery issues like buyers remorse.

 

[Connie]

I've seen Rick work, and he is a very fast, clever designer!

Nice work, Rick! Enjoy GA!

 

[Tracy D'Amico]

Rick - nice job - I like the concept of it!



Heather - we have similar problems with the profitability of these desings. We don't buy box lots of flowers, so we're working on bunch pricing as well, another profit drainer for large set pieces. However, I don't/won't work with carns, unless I can get a tremendous deal. It will usually take an hour to make a simple design, like a large shamrock from 3 18"hearts; we did a Philly's "P" a couple of weeks ago, which also took an hour just for pomp-ing the styro. Then the ribbons, and add'l doo-dads another 30 minutes. Delicate designs like that, we put on a background of solid styro, not just the "P" to hang like a wreath would.

At best, it's a break-even, occasionally somewhat profitable (especially the shamrocks) but not "easy money". We offer it for the "art" of a custom piece, the admiration that can come from it, and the advertisement. I have had customers say they saw a lighthouse, maltese cross, poker chip, whatever we did & then proceeded to order something very simple. They may not have known of us otherwise since we're new & small.

Heather - great tip about the guarantee upon delivery & not longer if someone attempts to move it. thanks!

 

[Dee Dee]

Great work Ricky ....as always

 

[TGDragonfly]

Great design - love it!

We have trouble making profits on designs like these. I was wondering how you all do? Just the other day we did an "eagles" logo in carnations. From the beginning the sales girl explained that the cheapest it could be was $350, and that would only be 24" long, not many carnations, that most of the value goes toward labor, as it is a very labor intensive item to design. She recommended we do a very large fireside basket, incorporating an eagles jersey or other eagles item. We told her for the $ it would be much more showy.
The customer insisted on a custom form, spelling out EAGLES.
As it turned out it was close to 36" (not 24"), exactly the same "font" of the Eagles logo, same green, edged in black ribbon. Took my brother (the art minor), a good hour to draw out and carve (hard to carve, almost a cursive looking font). Then another designer about an hour making. I would say about 120 carns, the stryofoam, ribbon, easel, etc.

We got a call that it "fell apart" and she was mortified. I knew this did not happen until the funeral director moved it. My driver set it up and told them not to move it, b/c it was quite fragile, due to the thinness of the style of the logo.

So after I determined that the funeral director attempted to move it to the graveside service - she said "well it was just not worth $400". I corrected her and said "$350 plus delivery and 6% sales tax". In the end, I gave her 25% back ($87.50)... so we made nothing. Not even sure we made anything before I had to credit her.

I would love to know how you all quote these custom jobs. And do you give the designer a time frame to complete?

Heather don't you use the Thortan technique?

 

[HeatherTuckey]

Heather don't you use the Thortan technique?

I'm scared to ask...

 

[RWK]

Whenever somebody requests a design in this vein ( a custom logo, set peice, form, etc ), automatically figure that 50 percent of your quoted retail price is LABOR.

Additionally - You should always OVER-estimate the quantity of flowers needed.

In this particular case.....I knew that the design would take 10 flowers to represent the ten balls used during a game of nine-ball. The fact that I too am a pool/billiards player did make coming up with the concept easier.

In most cases.......I tend to price a design realistically.....so that I make the levels of profits that I should. This usually is out of the budget range for people. Consequently, I don't do very many of them.

As far as delivery - I always photograph the design in several stage of completion and before it leaves the shop. In this particular case, I knew that the family was due to come back into the shop to order some additional designs....so I had this peice ready for them to see it BEFORE it left the shop.

 

[RWK]

To continue the pricing aspect discusssion of the pool table design and similar type designs.

I charged 100.00 for that design ( Since that was the decedent's pool cue used, that feature was NOT included in the pricing aspect )

I took a styrofoam pillow form.....shaved the edges to give me the rectangular shape ( 10.00 retail for the form ) ....then pinned the green felt onto the foam - 1 yard of felt was trimmed to fit ( 2.78 per yard retail at Walmart - charged 5.00 for the material ).....then trimmed styrrofoam scraps to make the diamond shaped rack.....( accounted 2.00 retail for scraps )........ then cut the satin #9 ribbon ( 1.25 retail a yard - 2.5 yards used ).......6 inches of black satin #40 trimmed into the pocket shapes ( accounted 25 cents for 6 inches of ribbon )......10 stems of carnations toothpicked into the foam surface ( 2.25 per stem price of flower and paint )

Assembly time ( 1 hour, 10 minutes ) - I always measure my time spent with a small stopwatch.....I pause the watch for things like phone, bathroom, customer, etc.

So.......total retail cost of design - 43.00 in retail cost of product -

Retail selling price - 100.00

Did I price that design profitably, accurately ?????

Armed with this information......How would you have priced this design?

Hopefully, this will help to illustrate and show some of the thought processes in pricing a customized design.

 

[thebloomcloset]

To continue the pricing aspect discusssion of the pool table design and similar type designs.

I charged 100.00 for that design ( Since that was the decedent's pool cue used, that feature was NOT included in the pricing aspect )

I took a styrofoam pillow form.....shaved the edges to give me the rectangular shape ( 10.00 retail for the form ) ....then pinned the green felt onto the foam - 1 yard of felt was trimmed to fit ( 2.78 per yard retail at Walmart - charged 5.00 for the material ).....then trimmed styrrofoam scraps to make the diamond shaped rack.....( accounted 2.00 retail for scraps )........ then cut the satin #9 ribbon ( 1.25 retail a yard - 2.5 yards used ).......6 inches of black satin #40 trimmed into the pocket shapes ( accounted 25 cents for 6 inches of ribbon )......10 stems of carnations toothpicked into the foam surface ( 2.25 per stem price of flower and paint )

Assembly time ( 1 hour, 10 minutes ) - I always measure my time spent with a small stopwatch.....I pause the watch for things like phone, bathroom, customer, etc.

So.......total retail cost of design - 43.00 in retail cost of product -

Retail selling price - 100.00

Did I price that design profitably, accurately ?????

Armed with this information......How would you have priced this design?

Hopefully, this will help to illustrate and show some of the thought processes in pricing a customized design.

I think you priced it accurately, eventhough I know that it was a ton of labor involved, my downfall personally when I price items out like this, is I want to do it, because I love to be creative, and that has a lot to do with how I price items. I think you did a great job on it, and I know the family was thrilled.

I am curious on how you sell the items, I always sketch it out and grab my color guide to show the flowers, I am still amazed at how many people don't know what a carnation or mum is....

 

[RWK]

I have found the best method for selling something like that is to ask open-ended questions during the sympathy consultation.

In this particular case.....I had asked if the decedent enjoyed any pastimes, hobbies, sports, or anything like that. The family replied that he was an avid pool player......would it be possible to do something with that mind? Of course, I told them yes.......Did he have a custommade cue or a favorite shooting glove, or something special that he always used when he played?

Open ended questions.......Not questions that can be answered yes or no......are the key to selling designs that capture the spirit, personality, persona, or pay homage to a decedent are the best ways to sell such a design.

Had it been a lady and the family told me that she loved to crochet and had won awards for her skill. I might would have aksed of they had an afghan that they would want me to incorporate into a design......or if he was an avid hunter and outdoorsman......deer antlers, branchy pines, tree limbs, etc.

The two biggest problems when designing a custom peice like this is.......

Number 1) If it is a logo, or a particular shape, or even something like a truck, or a vehicle, or whatever.......making sure you secure several pictures of the item. MAKE SURE THE FAMILY KNOWS THAY HAVE TO SECURE THIS FOR YOU.

If you don;t have some type of illustration to go by....You can run into real trouble.

The second real trouble item is accurate pricing. - It is important to keep several things top of mind.....1st of all - at least 50 percent of your selling price needs to go for labor. secondly.......always over-estimate the number or type of flowers you will need by a good 10 to 20 percent.......lastly - make sure that you keep your profit margins in line.......sometimes this can result in the item being priced out of the families budget.......and that IS OK. You can always offer them a more reasonable alternative.

In the example posted by Heather in which the item fell apart.....due to fragility of the particular logo and design........I would have priced it at least 400 dollars in order to allow for a greater use of material to strengthen the logo. I recall an incident a number of years ago in which I had to do an old style cross anchor.

This design combines a ships anchor with a cross........and I ended up getting a 4' by 4' sheet of plywood, using a jigsaw to cut out the shape, then attaching shaped peices of Smithers-Oasis Sculptsheet onto the wood form. I used about 18 screw in eye hooks into the wood and wired each one onto the stand.

In general, the more intricate the design, the higher the price in order to allow for greater control over the mechanics.

 

[treen]

It seems very alien to me to read this debate. We do A LOT of these sorts of designs in the UK and I would say it's one of the easiest most profitable parts of the business for me.

There are a few pics in my albums ...... 7 foot long block letter tributes are not unusual orders and one off designs (picture type tributes) are real money spinners for me.

I suppose that's what makes us all different:thumbsup

 

[RWK]

Treen - A large part of it is the simple fact that we here in the states do not have access to some of the forms and materials that you do in the UK.

For instance......Smithers Oasis makes for the UK a syrofoam sheet with a layer of oasis glue to the top of it.....in a 2 foot by 4 foot size ( I have seen this on the Smithers UK site ) and our only choice is a 22 inch square.

 

[treen]

Treen - A large part of it is the simple fact that we here in the states do not have access to some of the forms and materials that you do in the UK.

For instance......Smithers Oasis makes for the UK a syrofoam sheet with a layer of oasis glue to the top of it.....in a 2 foot by 4 foot size ( I have seen this on the Smithers UK site ) and our only choice is a 22 inch square.

I understand that is the case but where there's a demand then surely there is a market to supply?

I know you guys have some weight issues too
The caravan was made from 11 x separate blocks which were joined together. It was over 3ft high and nearly 4ft long. Even at that immense size it was stable enough to put on the roof of a truck and sturdy enough that it could be lifted up there. It did take a lot of planning from both a mechanical and design perspective ...... this wouldn't be for everyone but is something I particularly enjoy. With this design I left the oasis almost dry to keep the weight down and it worked a treat. I'd tested the flower material in the conditions I was storing it at for 3 days prior to making this tribute and it was absolutely fine. For that reason I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work in the styrofoam you use?

I also do a lot of "board joining" for large designs and have some techniques which make them very sturdy. The large block letter tributes are always made from at least 2 pieces of designer board.

I suppose it's a case of developing these techniques when you have a demand for these sorts of tributes...... if there's no demand there's little opportunity to develop ways of designing them. I have clients from all over the place come to me because I'm willing to rise to the challenge ..... that's all good for me I guess.

 

[HeatherTuckey]

I suppose our biggest challenge is that many customers have a visual in their mind, but the price they "think" it should cost is almost always half of our quote. If we agree to downscale it slightly, they are disappointed by the amount of flowers or size EVEN if we gave them dimensions and the finished design is larger than what was quoted on their order. More than half of our sympathy customers order over the phone, even larger family jobs. I suppose putting some of these customs on our site could be a helpful tool in selling on the phone (giving them a more accurate visual).

Not many of these custom items are dissatisfied with the result, but possibly 15%. The ones that don't bat an eye at $400 or $500 are usually very happy with the finished design.

The other challenge is profitability. Now if the design has a lot of flowers ...150 plus stems, we are making 3-4 x's on each flower PLUS the labor, so even if it takes longer than expected, we still make out ok. I still this most florists totally underestimate the labor involved. For example..

~ Did one person do all the work or did someone spray flowers, cut the form, etc. Did you charge for the TOTAL labor?

~ Did they come in late and was anyone was forced to work later on overtime?

~ Did they really quote the accurate labor time....

We try to quote $1 per minute to make our labor profitable. If you're paying a designer $15, plus your other overhead involved (and the time for the consult, ordering, processing the flowers, etc... you need to be charging $60 / hr). If you have a more expensive free lance designer, you may need to charge more OR they better be completing the job in less time that was allotted. If a plumber charges $60/hr to fix your toilet, why shouldn't an accredited floral professional designer??!!

In Ricky's example, 70 minutes is 1.16 hrs = $70. So I would have liked to have quoted that in labor. He had $57 in labor, so that was not far off, but I think 70 minutes is VERY fast for that design (that would have take most designers two hours. I would quote an avg designers speed and if I paid my best, fastest designer to do this, I might have to pay her a little more per hr, but she made it up in time, not to mention creativity.

Either my design mgr or myself usually calculate how long it should take them and the max amount of materials they have the $ for. Often it takes longer than expected.... and I think - "that was a waste... in the time she did that and the other designer made a $350 casket spray and two $200 head baskets. For those three items thats $225 in labor, plus 3-4 's mark up in the $525 retail in flowers. Way more profitable to do the casket spray, head and foot baskets."

Scares the hell out of me when they do a custom form on the weekend. Probably lost $ on it big time if no on was really aware of their time to design.

 

[RWK]

Time and Labor in doing a design like the caravan or some of the other designs that treen showcased is a great question Heather.

Looking at the caravan, I would estimate that the entire design....from concept, to making the form, to inserting the florals.......took at least two days time with more than one designer working on the design.

Bearing that the rate of exchange between the euro, pound, and dollars makes a difference, I would estimate that design would need to be at least 1,000 dollars US currency.