UK model for independent F2F sending - would it work here?

[CHR]

http://www.florist2florist.com/

This is not a traditional wire service/relay organization in that florists are paid the day they fill the orders - via credit card payment from sending shops. It's a true 80/20 with no commission and no rebates.

The service charges a flat fee for order transmissions: 3.0 GBP or $5.26 USD with no monthly or recurring fees.

If a shop sends 50 orders a month, their cost would be $263.00 vs base fees of $339 for FTD (dues, merc and QA) or $250 for TF (dues, dove, QA, directory)

How do they guarantee quality?

We operate a database of 95% of all the UK’s shops and have passed orders to nearly all of them. As a result of our experience in dealing with shops over the years, and passing huge volumes of orders to them, non-members have been given star ratings on performance and value for money. Some shops who have failed to execute orders properly or have consistently given poor value for money have been removed from the database, and this is an ongoing process. The result of this is that we receive very few complaints.

Wouldn't it be great to read ratings and reviews of other florists by florists? (Of course the comments could be subject to spam and competitor sabotage so there's a definite down side.)

Definitely a better deal for smaller senders and all filling shops compared to the current North American WS scheme but it's doubtful that large senders would find this program appealing.

Are you OVERSEAS from the UK? Bookmark this page, full international version of the software available soon!

None of these dollars go to support organizations competing against your business. Now that I find most appealing.

 

[Griff]

I assume you know....

why it won't work in this country. Cathy, are we just looking for conversation or do we need to get to specifics??

 

[TOTO]

Re: It most definetely WILL WORK and IT DOO!

The Independent Florist's Association has that model already in place and cheaper too!

http://www.myifa.org

The model which I like is the customary 80% / 20% which converts to 80% for the filler and 20% for the sender.

And, their monthly fee is only $20 when you SEND OUT ORDERS through them which is paid for by your shop's credit card, preferably the one which gives you the most returns.

According to Russ Schmitt, IFA's president, their order volume is increasing in leaps and bounds.

It appears that, more and more REAL FLORISTS are leaving the traditional wire services since they can no longer afford the high costs associated with being a member of them.

All US WEE BEES really need is a dependable highway to send out our customer's Intra and Inter State floral orders coupled with HARD COPY and professional florists on each end.

Back in the Spring of 2001 and when we turned in our papers with the NEW FTDI, there was a short BLACKOUT PERIOD in which, we had to call out our orders F2F DIRECT using our company credit card.

It was a hassle, in as much as, many clerks and FLORISTS TOO were still STUCK ON STUPID!

Sure, eventually we were always able to find A REAL FLORIST WITH A BRAIN, but the two or three before reaching that one, was the problem.

Can any of us imagine a FLORIST turning down a F2F order at net 80% with immediate payment in favor of the old WS order at net 70% while waiting 30 to 45 days for payment?

Then again, PT BARNUM said it best!

However, things have gotten a lot different now as more and more shops have gotten the BIGGER PROFIT PICTURE TOO!

A REAL FLORIST friend of mine just tested IFA as he has turned in his papers (finally). He was a holdout still hoping that, the leopard might change its spots.

He's now happy and confident that, IFA is his new way to go.

As FORE MEE? Well, I'll bee drafting my FARE THEE WELL papers this week as wee too move over to the IFA Highway!

It's all about DA NUMBERS and according to OUR NUMBERS, they no longer have the ability to MOVE OUR NEEDLE by bringing 100% sale NEW customers into our shop with either their PRODUCTS or their $ERVICES.

And since it was those customers with their 100% SALE DOLLARS which begot PROFITS which BEGOT our ability to justify their COSTS TO US, the FAT LADY HAS SUNG!

 

[CHR]

I'm glad to hear IFA is working out well and gaining momentum.

The F2F effort described above is somewhat different because it's electronic and web-based. The start-up cost (for the software) is low and can run on any PC. Tracking and subsequent communications would be much easier than transmission by fax or phone.

why it won't work in this country.

During the last two weeks, virtually every florist with which I've spoken has said 'I'm ready to quit ____WS.' No, none of them are top WS members but all are excellent florists.

We used to swap direct billing with a shop in the south part of our county until a new owner (long-time florist) took over last summer. She informed me that all orders would come through a WS since she wanted the rebates. Our average orders back and forth are around $100. I pointed out that she was willing to give up $7 (7%) average on our incoming orders to gain $3 rebates on outgoings. Um...OK.

Imagine my surprise last week when she called to place an order using a CC saying she'd had enough of the WS competing against her and was tired of being fee'd to death. 'They do nothing to bring us customers. I'm not giving them another penny.' This is a well respected store with the best quality flowers in her area.

Bill, there are plenty of reasons to believe nothing new will work. There are also plenty of reasons to believe a chunk of career florists are fed up and would welcome a viable alternative.

 

[Bigted]

Ifa

I don't think that getting rid of FTD/Tele WS addresses one of the biggest problems: "Let's make a deal" with the customer's money. I get pretty tired of florists calling and saying "would you take a so and so for $50?, even though you know they charged the customer $65. I believe it's this kind of cavalier attitude about the consumer's money that will eventually spell the end of the wire service system.

I don't view the 27% (actually closer to 30% with fees) as the big issue, especially when you net out your wire ins and outs (for which you really do nothing).

Local customers are everything. Keep them happy and the bad guys will eventually go away.

Big Ted in Anaheim

 

[Griff]

I don't mean to be negitive

Sorry Cathy, but I don't mean to be negitive on this subject, but nothing changes. Yes, every month we hear florists talk over and over again about leaving the WS and next month they are still there. It has been going on for over 5 years now.

The only alternatives offered for florists to leave the WS are other 20/80 programs and they don't seem to work for some very obvious reasons. The big senders are not going to leave the WS because of REBATES. Even the florist OG's are not willing to leave either WS as long as rebates are available. There's never a shortage of florists that are willing to fill these orders because no one is willing to make it a competive situation on the receiving end and you get less than quality work in many cases. For the smart florists that have figured out that there is no money in filling incoming, they're not willing to compete with "filling" florists and therefore the best florist isn't always doing the work and the customers aren't benefiting from the system, hence everyone loses. And lastly we have the florists that are willing to leave but for one reason or another <electronic sending system isn't compatible or irreplaceable cc rates or whatever, or the moon is never going to be in the right alignment with Mercury or Mars for them they are unwilling to take that "big step". For many of these reasons you are unable to convince the right number of florists to go with any one system so you create many small fragmented programs. We continue to create copies of programs that no longer work and try to convince each other that THIS NEW PROGRAM will be different. The problem is as long as you continue to follow the same path, you all end up at the same destination.

Now, Cathy, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to pick on you. The Wire Servcies have done such a job on spinning very large spider webs and have captured so many florists in so many ways, most can not see any other choices. The WS have these florists wrapped up tightly on their web and are proceeding to snack on each florist indivually whenever they need to, one bite at a time. The simple fact is that it is going to take some special florists to step up and change the direction that wire business is headed. Here is one possibility.

Create a private directory that is internet based and allows f2f business and only for 0-100 business. No the big guys are not going to come or OGs! Promote the idea that everyone that joins this program will have to include pictures of there own work which will accompany any pricing for mimimums. In other words, show the other florists what you are going to provide for your mimimums - delivery not included. List the florists only for the zip codes they are actually located in. This is truely for the benefit of the customer, and not the florist. If you want to increase the quality of this business, you are going to have to create some incentives to do so. The current 80/20 doesn't do that. The current 80/20 program has proven to inflat the minimum prices by florists which discourages consumer sending of flowers. A 0-100% program will also change that. If you want to build traffic on a system, you are going to have to do it without large senders.

If florists have learned anything over the last couple of years. it is scary sending out orders no matter whose network you are using. If florists are willing to step up to the plate and honestly look at what is the source of the problem, they will find that a great many florists will be willing to send orders on a system that is 0-100 if they can only find good florists that will do the job right! But those good florists are going to have to be paid accordingly and not with 20% discounted business. As been pointed out many time before on these boards, 20/80 on a cc isn't really that much better than 20/73/7. Many of the cc being used today by florists have special programs attached and the discount rate hovers around the 3% or higher level.

There was a system developed 5 years ago that was a 0-100% program and incorpaorated many of the things that I just mentioned. It also included the capability to send the physical orders through to a fax and the cc information was sent separately to an e-mail address for security after acknowledgement of receipt of the order. However, many of the same people on these boards squashed this whole idea because they considered it harmful to the outbound business. Little did they know how many other forces are now threatening the whole industry.

 

[fairfield]

80/20 is better than 73/7/20 for florist...

We have been a member of flowershopnetwork.com for 4 years. We have always used it just for it's website directory. It sends more traffic our way than any other we have. They have recently introduced a sending and receiving system called F2F. I think the membership is $250 a year. It is a $7 fee if you phone your order to them and $4 if you use the internet form. You pay 80% with a CC when you send and if you choose to recieve, they send checks out once a week for 80%.

As for 80/20 not being much different than 73/7/20. Teleflora charges $140 membership fee, $1 PER ORDER transmission fee, and $20 quality assurance fee PER MONTH basic service. Throw in the dove for $80, a decent directory listing for $60-$120, $70 for web services and CC processing fee with high rates and you're set baby. Remember to add the TF logo to your local and web advertisements with your new slogan: [your shop name], Now a Teleflora Minion.

ADD IT UP!!! $5000 per year!!! Do you PROFIT free and clear $5000 just from your WS in a year? If not, then THEY ARE NOT WORKING FOR YOU!!! Don't put your WS business in the same column as your local business when you do your books. Separate ALL of your wire service business from the rest of your business. Don't forget to add in all of the flowers, vases, greens, LABOR etc. it took to make those incoming orders. I'll bet you see that you end up doing a lot of work for no more money. Are you in business to make money or to employ personnel in a coattail business.

 

[CHR]

Ted -

Welcome to FlowerChat. Nice to see you posting.

I believe it's this kind of cavalier attitude about the consumer's money that will eventually spell the end of the wire service system.

Gets my vote for quote of the day. Well said. Unfortunately traditional florists are so wrapped in the same packaging/persona/logos that many risk the same fate.

Local customers are everything. Keep them happy and the bad guys will eventually go away.

Hope you're right about the bad guys. It was a consistent quality and value across the country that helped build the industry. The lack thereof can only have a reverse effect.

 

[CHR]

Create a private directory that is internet based and allows f2f business and only for 0-100 business.

Why not a free market directory where florists can name their commissions? You like 100%, others may feel comfortable with 25%. Only two numbers should truly matter - the one that measures florists' profitability and the one that measures consumer satisfaction. If and when both groups are satisfied, then the business model can be considered a success.

Right now, neither group is happy AFAICT.

show the other florists what you are going to provide for your minimums - delivery not included.

Gee, if we could only get 50% of florists to do that for consumers then I'd be happy. Instead, it's more like 5% right now. IMO the effort should be directed to direct buyers instead of towards more discounted business.

Now, Cathy, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to pick on you.

We just don't always agree on the road map but I'm certain our goal is toward the same de$tination.

 

[Connie]

We also are members of IFA, and it has worked very well for us. We usually do the 80-20 split.

 

[CHR]

We have been a member of flowershopnetwork.com for 4 years. We have always used it just for it's website directory. It sends more traffic our way than any other we have. They have recently introduced a sending and receiving system called F2F. I think the membership is $250 a year. It is a $7 fee if you phone your order to them and $4 if you use the internet form. You pay 80% with a CC when you send and if you choose to recieve, they send checks out once a week for 80%.

I don't know much at all about Flower Shop Network. The fee schedule you quote sounds very much like the UK model - except for the annual fee. Does the $250 include a listing in their directory? If so, then it sounds like a very good deal for both consumer marketing and F2F capabilities.

The one important element lacking in both the UK F2F group as well as IFA is the place to connect consumers direct to their real florist members. The same can be said for many florist groups including state associations. Squandered opportunities IMO.

BTW, the new FSN website templates are quite attractive but I'm not sure how well they place in search results yet.

 

[theflowersmith]

FSN Website

We have a website with FSN and I'm quite pleased with the results. We have only been with them a short time, but have gained quite a few orders. Also, the really do mail out their checks every Monday. They must market the site quite well, because we really haven't had a chance.

In contrast, our TF site doesn't do well at all and we've had it a long time. What's interesting is that both sites are listed with FSN's directory w/the TF site listed first. Still, the FSN site is out performing. Tells me the FSN is on the right track with something!

Next up for me--explore putting more of our own products on the FSN site. Have a look: http://www.theflowersmith.net/

 

[fairfield]

Fsn

Yes, the $250 includes the directory listing. The listing is the main component of FSN. Search the web for your city, your state and flowers or florist just like a customer would do. You will most likely see FSN at the top of the first page. Click on the link and you will see the shops in that town in FSN. Customers will call your shop directly using the phone number shown on that page 90% of the time without even clicking the link to your website. This is where FSN pays for itself many times over. I know. I use it. They have expanded services to include website templates with online shopping, but I don't know much about it. It's worth the call to find out if you're interested. They are very helpful and not pushy. It is the best money spent to bring in 100% orders in my opinion.

 

[goldfish]

This is not a traditional wire service/relay organization in that florists are paid the day they fill the orders - via credit card payment from sending shops. It's a true 80/20 with no commission and no rebates.

I thik it will (eventually) work, because

(1) TF/FTD won't correct themselves and will continue to hurt the businesses of real florists, and therefore...

(2) those florists who can't get out of TF/FTD trap will disappear, replaced by super-efficient "order fillers", and/or possibly by FTD retail stores which may be associated with big retail chain-stores.

I don't think anyone really knows when this change, which is already occurring, will finally settle. I just hope that we will be still standing when it does.

Anycase, as to the new order-trasnfer system which we do need, I would prefer some kind of bidding system in which potential filler florists can bid (1) minimum order amount and (2) what percentage of discount they will accept for a given day. For instance...

Today you have a big funeral order; you bid (1) $100 minimum and (2) 100/0 for the morning, to screen out all those cheap crap orders.

Next day, now the funeral is over; it started raining and no customer is coming in. It's time to update your bid to a whopping (1) $25 and (2) 75/25 super discount, so that at least your employees stop playing a stupid computer game.

Of course, for this bidding system to work, we would need a lot of florists to survive and join the system. Will enough of us survive?