WS's and brand recognition nonsense..

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jbarb

jbarb

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Oct 31, 2002
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I'm posting this question here because I know the FTD fan club would roast me on the FTD board and the all wire services are evil fan club would roast me on the FB so here is my question...

I read a post on the FTD board from a new member questioning when they would start getting orders etc. One of the responses was that no one should belong to a ws for the benefit of incoming orders. That one should be a member of FTD for the benefit of the "brand" and what it can do for you. Ok, now what I really do not get is if recieving orders is such a bad thing then why on earth would any one belong to a ws other than to just send? And assuming that this is the case, any form of outgoing sending service would be adequate, there should be no need what so ever for "brand recognition" because your customer could care less how the order is sent (usually).
As far as using the "brand" for any other purpose, this is where I really get confused. Why would you want to promote any "brand" but your own? I sure as heck don't promote the fact that I'm FTD considering the trash shops in the area that are also FTD. What am I supposed to be proud of? OH all ye public people!! come buy flowers from me because I am FTD!!! and then put in fine print - and so are all the other shops with in a three days drive of us-
I see no value at all in being a member of either of the WS's if what your looking for is "brand"

This is not a slam ftd post, I use them as an example because the question originally started at the FTD board.

Jim
 
Jim,

I had a big long post over a year ago on the FTD board about the same thing. Brand recognition is crap, unless the brand is "MY FLOWER SHOP." We are the brand - each his/her own brand.

Ryan
 
Jbarb, you're correct on the point that if there is more than one FTD florist in the area, that the "Brand" recognition isn't the same; BUT if there are a small number of FTD florists in an area (or province, like here in Newfoundland) then intelligent use of the "Brand" can be advantageous. We promote our shop and every now and then mention FTD or FTD products. Every now and then someone asks if we are FTD but in 18 years I've never been asked if we are TF!
Ryan, have you EVER gone into a supermarket and asked for a Pepsi; a computer retailer and ordered an Intel chip; a restaurant and asked for a "Blue" with your dinner??? Brand recognition is far from crap which thousands of businesses around the world can tell you; I agree that we should promote OUR brand BUT sometimes it's to our advantage to promote some brands that we sell too. Most flower shops sell plush but some consumers ask for Ty, Russ, Gund etc for various reasons and sometimes won't accept others. Rock on................
 
Yep Yep Yep My BRAND!

So true...Teleflora is SO OVER SATURATED in my TOWN..I think the Directory shows about 5-6 Local and 28 ASB (also served by's). One of the ASB's is located 40 miles away. When BN(ftd) started play charades with our FTD membership I pulled the PLUG! May 2000.

Now I wonder if I need to do the same thing with TF? We have been with TF since 1964 only to be :buttkick for trying to survive. Our REP is living off the "sign them up mode" not realizing that FOOD is being taken off the Tables of us FLORISTS who were working to get a "Brand out".

It's a no-brainer today....ME ME ME. I don't like it in todays Floral Economy but that is the FACTS..

Free enterprize..USE IT!
 
Originally posted by Rock
Ryan, have you EVER gone into a supermarket and asked for a Pepsi; a computer retailer and ordered an Intel chip; a restaurant and asked for a "Blue" with your dinner??? Brand recognition is far from crap which thousands of businesses around the world can tell you; I agree that we should promote OUR brand BUT sometimes it's to our advantage to promote some brands that we sell too. Most flower shops sell plush but some consumers ask for Ty, Russ, Gund etc for various reasons and sometimes won't accept others. Rock on................
Click to expand...

This is too good to pass up.

1) I hate Pepsi - Coke drinker, here
2) I hate Intel - AMD all the way
3) I hate Blue - Stella Artois or Rickards, please

Hugh, you're on an apples to oranges comparison. I don't walk into a restaurant and ask for KD. I ask for a pasta dish prepared by the chef on the premesis.

A computer shop selling Intel or AMD adds ZERO to the product. It leaves the door in the same box it arrived in. If we did that, I could put Funza on all my doors and vehicles, to say we've got the best carns.

more in a minute ...
 
Sorry ... had to reboot.

Difference is pure retailing of a manufactured product, where the faith of the consumer is in the product, not the store versus design, assembly and sale of a uniquely crafted gift where the faith of the consumer is in the retailer.

If I buy a Coke, it's because it's a Coke. I can go to ANY corner store (except in Newf???) and get one.

If I want a GOOD Lasagna, I go down the street to Vesuvio's, because I trust them to make it. I don't care at all what the name of their wholesaler is.

Ryan
 
Ryan,
Re-read my post; you missed the entire point(s),
good night
 
I've long said that I don't NEED any logo on my window, a sign saying Nationwide Flower Delivery would do just as well.

There are other tangible benefits to membership that I find however.

But I saw that post on the FTD board and I pretty much agree with the poster that said there's no money to be made on incoming. There are exceptions but it takes a cogs wizard to do it, IMHO. I just don't care to roll the wheels to make a buck an order and I don't care to do cogs sold that tight. I think most think if you get a check you made money but the exact opposite I find to be true. They don't add up the checks they wrote to get that check. One holiday one fellow florist nearby told me they got a check from FTD for $300 that they figured cost them over $2000 to get. If you pay the ws, you made money.

Just like taxes, paying taxes means you made money. High taxes usually means you made high money, until it gets too high, then it means your Republican President gave you a break cuz you're rich. One of them nice things he do for rich people.
 
Occasionally,

a shop/shop owner will admit, that they are a member of a wire service for the "incoming", but, in MOST cases, those SAME members, or more, hope to recieve that all encompassing "cheque" (check in US speak), to help pay their monthly expense sheet, and we all realize that!!
However, as Ryan so kindly pointed out, "branding" is NOT important to HIM, so he dropped the 3rd largest MOST RECOGNIZABLE logo in the world, because few people noticed the logo on the door!
That very same poster, from the FTD board, has NO experience at the floral wire service level, and is experiencing a slow season, so, the NEXT reason for the question IS, "when do I start getting BUSY with incoming orders??" along with my local business!
It is relatively EASY for us to stab a "brand" because we are established, maybe paid off our houses, maybe our kids are done college, HOWEVER, branding WILL STILL BE, the dominant reason why customers will come to your store.
I think ALL the wire services have learned some valuable lessons...they DO NOT control the local marketplace...YOU DO STILL, and THEY are using YOU, to bypass YOUR brand, to push theirs, and how do they do it??....
Back in a few, to complete this post.....
Mike
 
I look at this way,
I AM THE BRAND IN Elliot Lake, but i also have go-brand and they are Teleflora and FTD and any other company I deal with and bring their product in my store. THey all help me make me who I am aside from the service, quality I offer to MY CUSTOMER.
I do believe that brand exsist and more people will come to my store and say are you FTD than Teleflora. I do educate people that teleflora is a wire service similar to FTD.
Luc
 
I don't give a hoot....

if you are a member of TF or FTD, or some other, however, let's solidify this thread....
Ryan jumped in right away, when ROCK posted his opinion...apples and orange, Coke and Pepsi...my impression he's trying to justify HIS decision to drop FTD...most florists DO THAT, when THEY want to justify THEIR decisions to make a change....too bad!!
It's EXACTLY what ws's want to see happen...a "polarization" of members, a "division" of the rank and file, a "split" in the true "consensus" of what WE DO!!
Ryan is still young...HIS advantage is that Martin's is now a 5th generation florist business, and he would SURE change his tune, if he was FIRST generation, just starting out, finding his "own" way!!
IF Ryan had STARTED, from scratch, with HIS name on the "shingle" he might understand.....he's missed that point.
My opinion is this....you only need ONE service...make a choice!! Ask the questions, make the choice....Coke and Pepsi is irrelevant!
If you are fairly NEW to the business, you NEED branding support, and TF doesn't have it...hands down!!
Not that FTD really does that much better, HOWEVER, a "better" analogy would be, when you have a BOOBAH on your finger, you reach for a "Band Aid", regardless of manufacturer, and IF you believe that "branding" still works, then FTD IS the brand, TF is just another wire service.
Mike
 
Originally posted by jbarb
I read a post on the FTD board from a new member questioning when they would start getting orders etc. One of the responses was that no one should belong to a ws for the benefit of incoming orders. That one should be a member of FTD for the benefit of the "brand" and what it can do for you. Ok, now what I really do not get is if recieving orders is such a bad thing then why on earth would any one belong to a ws other than to just send?
Click to expand...

Receiving orders is not a bad thing in and of itself. Depending on them is, IMHO. We don't belong to ws because of the specials (and with Teleflora, who would?) but because the service aspect. We live in a community where a large block of our youth has moved away but they have family here and vice versa. For our customer's convenience we offer the service, yes, we make money on it but that's only because we manage it for all it's worth.

As far as using the "brand" for any other purpose, this is where I really get confused. Why would you want to promote any "brand" but your own? I sure as heck don't promote the fact that I'm FTD considering the trash shops in the area that are also FTD. What am I supposed to be proud of?
Click to expand...

This is going to sound like sacrilege to some - but Brand is what you make it. FTD has a good name locally, TF so-so, the reason for that falls to the florists.
As of this week, there are now only 2 FTD shops in town. We've been FTD for years, our name is synonymous with quality in town. The other FTD shop's designer use to have his own place that was FTD. The third FTD shop closed and that designer is rejoining our shop family. FTD here has always had higher standards in the Sault. The same can not be said for Teleflora - the shops mostly come and go at a rate that's blinding, some of those fly-bys have hurt the Teleflora reputation. It's all public perception.

I see no value at all in being a member of either of the WS's if what your looking for is "brand"
Click to expand...

Others here have said it, I agree - the most important 'Brand' you sell is your own. Ultimately, only you can truly know your market.

We've built our reputation on our guarantees, our product and our willingness to go the extra yard for our customers. As a brand, I think it's a good one.

Audra
 
Mikey, I agree with some of what you said, but the brand recognition as far as the WS go is also very localized in nature. We NEVER have a customer come in and ask for FTD products. However during the holidays we frequently get asked for the TF containers. Last year I did not sell a single FTD branded container from a request. Not one. I sold out of everything that I carried from TF with the exception of the bronze bowl. I'm sure that most of this has to do with advertising. TF does a way better job of advertising than FTD does. As you probably know FTD is modeling the TF program for advertising this holiday season to see if they can pick up some of the business.
There is a reason that FTD only does 1/3 of the orders that TF does. If the "brand" was all that terrific then the numbers would not be so out of whack.
I am currently a member of both for one reason and one reason only, and I know that there are boardiees here that will disagree with me on this but my numbers work for me, and that reason is for the exposure. Every order that goes out the door is advertising for us. We get way more return customers from this than from any media advertising we can do in this little one goat town. I just did a $1000 worth of flowers to one event on Monday because we had delivered an order to this person. I would never have reached this person other wise. Two weeks ago we did a memorial for a woman to the tune of $600. This customer sent flowers to her mom through her local florist. The order came to us, we delivered the flowers and the sender was there to see them. She did not know us from any other shop but because she liked what she saw, she ordered the flowers from us. None of this had anything to do with the FTD or TF "brand" It had to do with the exposure that the WS gave us through an incoming order. At some point we will reach the point of diminishing returns on this and that is when we will drop one of the WS's most likely FTD. I don't think that one is better than the other per say, but TF has never lied to my face like FTD has.


Jim
 
Well said Jim....

however, time will tell whether your opinion of TF will change over the next little while or not.
Both FTD and TF are starting to look very much the same as each other, and TF is now starting to "force" the issue, and raising prices without warning, to pay for those "freebies" that won so many florists over!
I too, loved being a member of both services, along with a couple of others...the more the merrier, when the costs and order volumes warranted it, and even though we were processing MOST of TF's orders in our delivery area, AND experiencing the SAME fluid results as YOu have, the truth IS, the "cost per order" with TF was higher than FTD's,and to be frank, I already KNEW that TF was raising it's "Quack" support costs, and I TRIED to tell you all...little belief came from it.
TF has NOT "developed" ANYTHING that has cost them significant R&D, and it WILL be their achilles heel down the line.
TF's container sales have zoomed, BUT, then again, many of us DON'T want loads of containers to deal with, and the FTD product "advisory board" delivered what was asked of them....FEWER CODIFIED CONTAINERS
Eh....it's a choice, a pricey choice.
We dropped TF..our profit margins jumped 9%...you figure it out!!
Mike
 
Re: I don't give a hoot....

Originally posted by Mikey the Flower Guy
if you are a member of TF or FTD, or some other, however, let's solidify this thread....
Ryan jumped in right away, when ROCK posted his opinion...apples and orange, Coke and Pepsi...my impression he's trying to justify HIS decision to drop FTD...most florists DO THAT, when THEY want to justify THEIR decisions to make a change....too bad!!
It's EXACTLY what ws's want to see happen...a "polarization" of members, a "division" of the rank and file, a "split" in the true "consensus" of what WE DO!!
Ryan is still young...HIS advantage is that Martin's is now a 5th generation florist business, and he would SURE change his tune, if he was FIRST generation, just starting out, finding his "own" way!!
IF Ryan had STARTED, from scratch, with HIS name on the "shingle" he might understand.....he's missed that point.
My opinion is this....you only need ONE service...make a choice!! Ask the questions, make the choice....Coke and Pepsi is irrelevant!
If you are fairly NEW to the business, you NEED branding support, and TF doesn't have it...hands down!!
Not that FTD really does that much better, HOWEVER, a "better" analogy would be, when you have a BOOBAH on your finger, you reach for a "Band Aid", regardless of manufacturer, and IF you believe that "branding" still works, then FTD IS the brand, TF is just another wire service.
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,

Sorry you have such a low opinion of my experience (20+ yrs), and I'm sorry I was born into an existing, profitable shop.

It doesn't change my point.

You can buy a Band Aid at any store. You can only buy one of Sandie's designs, handled with Mikey's service at Holden's. You can't compare FTD or TF with Coke or Kleenex. Nothing to do with justifying my decision - our jump in profits does that. Dropping either one of the big 2 will produce that result.

Ryan
 
This is probably getting off the point, but I don't understand how you guys that are FTD only figure that the cost per order FTD is lower than the cost per order TF?
Looking at my accounting ledger there is virtually no difference. The membership fees are the same, the FTo fees are the same, the directory subscription is the same the dove is $10 higher but FTD charges that stupid QA fee so actually FTD is higher over all by about ten bucks. Other than that there is no difference that I can tell. So enlighten me, how do you figure that FTD is a better value?
Jim
 
I have the same question as Jim. I know for Mikey it came down to a few service issues, and the "next one to raise fees." But he can speak to his situation better than I.

For us, the $$ were almost equal, FTD a bit more expensive ($10-20??). Not enough to sway the decision on it's own. Service to us, service to our customers - that's where the dividing line was struck, without contest.
 
Ryan, I was obviously mistaken; I thought we were talking about BRAND RECOGNITION.
Whether you drink Pepsi or Coke etc (your personal preferences) are not the issue. The issue is that some prefer one brand, some another BUT they are asking for a product by brand name and if you have it you could advertise that you have it and get that person into your store!!!
Some brands are only available in only one store like Holden's or Martin's or Atkinson's and obviously that is what we are promoting BUT these 3 stores who have an EXCLUSIVE on the sale of their own creations CAN IF THEY SO WISH SELL OTHER ITEMS like GUND plush or TELEFLORA (or FTD) "keepsakes" AS WELL AS their own creations WITHOUT losing the value of their own BRAND...
My 27+ years experience in sales and management tells me very clearly I wasn't discussing oranges, just apples.
The reason we decided to go with FTD instead of TF came down to a number of LITTLE issues; nothing major either way. I've had issues with TF the same as I've had with FTD over the years but FTD just had more to offer my business at this time. I've had time to reflect on my decision and have nothing to justify to anyone.
Hugh A.
PS Ryan, I thought you were 27 years old??
 
You're both right, Jim and Ryan....

the decison for any of us to have ONLY ONE WIRE service, can be a real tough thing to do!!
JIM, you first....where IS IT, that I said FTD OR TF was cheaper than the other?? You implied that BECAUSE I chose to become FTD ONLY, meant that forever more, FTD would be cheaper....ummm show me where I said you SHOULD become FTD ONLY, that membership in FTD is cheaper, or more/less efficient, or customer friendly.
Show me where in ANY of my posts, I steered ANYBODY towards one service or the other, other than "make a choice" because it is BETTER ( read my lips) for YOUR business model!!
Show me where I've steered you to believe that FTD was TRULY better than TF, or Blossom's Network, or Bloomnet, or anyone else.
For SURE, you WILL FIND evidence that "duplication" of ws's, is no longer profitable, that keeping ONE, and discarding the rest, is by FARRRRR more profiable than keeping MORE than one, and trying to justify duplication of expenses, since they are virtually the same, at this current time...SHOW ME!!
And to YOU Ryan....what IS it with you??? You think that I (as in ME) have a low opinion of you??...in ANY form or fashion?? You've REALLY got to be kidding me!!...WHERE on EARTH did you EVER deduce THAT from??
You and I Ryan, both made choices, as will many more florists, to INCREASE our bottom lines, a reduce the "welfare role" of the wire services, to INCREASE the direct consumer and florist to florist orders in the very near future!!
When I made MY decision, as stated many times in the past...BOTH FTD and TF were neck and neck...and the VERY FIRST ONE to raise their prices was out the door.
The Duck system is DIAL UP, for heaven's sake...a glorified fax machine, with a pretty interface!! It worked GREAT, inbound AND outbound...probably a nicer interface than MD will EVER be, BUT, it's now outdated, needs love, and that lovin AIN'T in the cards from the Duck system, and it appears to need a VERY HEAVY SUPPORT SYSTEM in place, to pacify those that have limited PC experience, and prefer the "extra" stroking that Teleflora supplies...so BE IT, it's FINE, it does a good job!!
Seems to ME, that I'm ONE of those characters, that DOES NOT REQUIRE an "athletic" supporter ( yea, go ahead and laugh) to hold up my tools of choice, which through FTD, is FULLY internet based, is "OPEN PLATFORM", available EVEN to Peter at Blossom's Network, should he choose that route, and has been developed, AND redeveloped over time, and TOTALLY REVAMPED with FULL directory online updates.
The interface clunks at times, so did TerraSYS when it was new, BUT, the MERC NETWORK, is by FAR more capable of handling holiday volume pressure, than DOVE is at this time.
Jim said that Duck handles THREE TIMES as many orders as Merc, and not too long ago, MERC was handling THREE TIMES as many orders as DOVE, and probably soon, Blossom's Network MAY BE handling THREE TIMES as many orders as BOTH...I don't know, BUT, what I DO KNOW, is that I HAD TO HAVE large staffing to handle all the TF orders I was getting, the containers, the product differences, the customer confusion, and the "pressure" to keep codified containers from BOTH, I analyzed the worth of it all, the cost to maintain it, and the VALUE TO ME, as the filling florist right down to looking at the piddly size of MANY on the inbound from DUCK, and the number of "handles"per, right down to the value per order INBOUND from FTD members that trust our shop to fill for THEM, and GUESS WHAT???my "cost per order" inbound from FTD was lower that that of Teleflora...ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, and AGAIN, TF was the odd WS out!
Still, I have MANY friends...I DO NOT SIZE THEM by their athletic supporter wire service, I DO NOT GRADE THEM on their "choice(s) of wire service, I DO NOT GRADE THEM by size, or colour, or shape, or language...I'm NOT entitled to, nor WILL I.
This divison of this one is better than THAT one has to stop, right here, right now!!
CHOOSE...lay in the bed that you make for yourself, and your business....you're getting SLEEEEPY.:smurf
 
Good grief Mikey, get a grip. THE ONLY reference that I was asking about is to quote you

"YOu have, the truth IS, the "cost per order" with TF was higher than FTD's"

I was just asking how you came to that figure. I was'nt implying anything. I was'nt questioning your choices. I was simply asking a question and that was " how does the math work that FTD is cheaper than TF?"
My reference to the dove handling three times the volume had nothing to do with the tech, I was simply stating that if you are considering "BRAND" recognition, then why is it that TF is selling more product than FTD? These are not my words, these numbers came straight from Bob Norton.

I could not care less who belongs to which wire service. Heck I have a friend that is a member of Bloomnet (1800flowers) and I still like her :>

If Ryan, being TF only had made the same comment that TF was cheaper/more expensive than FTD I would have asked him the same question...that is, show me the math. Nothing more, nothing implied, no questions of judgement, just a simple math question.....

Jim
 
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