I checked my wire orders for the past yr. and found I have 1 out to every 2 in. NOT good.. Thanks for opening my eyes, you florists have very good advice. Leona
about wire services
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Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
That is not necessarily bad.
Someone elses advice about a 5 to 1 ratio is flawed
You also need to factor in the volume of in and outs.
your current labor supply and demand
your pershiable inventory
and your fixed costs
before making statements like -- to paraphrase -- "you need a 5 out to 1 in" to be profitable in the WS's ALL aspects of the business must be evaluated.
If all you sent was 5 orders out and received one every month, the WS membership would still be unprofitable.
ie 5 orders avg price out $50 equals $50 commission and one $50 order filled at $36.50 AND $350 membership fee is a loser scenario.
Joe
My current boss wires out maybe 6 orders a month. She fills an average of 6 per day. No wonder she can't give me a raise!!
Beth :~/
Joe, you can spin those WS synarios every which way but Sunday. And the bottom line is more florists are not making enough money, and they want to know why. That whole WS model is being held together with spit and balling wire.
Lets talk about the DILUTED dollar. Because that is what has to happen to that 1$ before anyone else can take a piece of it.
If someone came into your shop and handed you 60 cents, and then he wanted you to hand him 1$, you would think he was crazy. I don't care if it is 1 time a month he comes in, or 100 times a month, you would still think he was crazy. Well if more florists don't find a way to hang on to that hard earned 1$, and all of it, times are going to get much tougher out there.
There is only one true percentage that keeps me on the way up, 100%. I've had 2 funeral directors approach me for 20% kick, I told them both just as soon as they agree to give me 20% of all referrals I provide for them. That was the end of the conversation. Hmmmmmm.
Not anti-WS, just anti-giving my money away to anyone. They just happen to be in the line of fire in this industry I chose to make my living in.
Lets talk about the DILUTED dollar. Because that is what has to happen to that 1$ before anyone else can take a piece of it.
If someone came into your shop and handed you 60 cents, and then he wanted you to hand him 1$, you would think he was crazy. I don't care if it is 1 time a month he comes in, or 100 times a month, you would still think he was crazy. Well if more florists don't find a way to hang on to that hard earned 1$, and all of it, times are going to get much tougher out there.
There is only one true percentage that keeps me on the way up, 100%. I've had 2 funeral directors approach me for 20% kick, I told them both just as soon as they agree to give me 20% of all referrals I provide for them. That was the end of the conversation. Hmmmmmm.
Not anti-WS, just anti-giving my money away to anyone. They just happen to be in the line of fire in this industry I chose to make my living in.
It's time to bump the thread and mention the Wire Service Profit Calculator.
One of our team members wrote that Excel spreadsheet. Rather than 'guessing, thinking or feeling' whether WS participation works, run the numbers. Use your own current or anticipated costs and ratios.
From that Profit Calculator thread:
One of our team members wrote that Excel spreadsheet. Rather than 'guessing, thinking or feeling' whether WS participation works, run the numbers. Use your own current or anticipated costs and ratios.
From that Profit Calculator thread:
Ask yourself why 1-800, FTD, TF and PF don't run their own same-day fulfillment operations nationally. Do you think they would if they felt it was a profitable part of the flower biz?
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
This is a very good time to clarify a statement I made in a previous thread.
In a previous thread I emphatically declared "I don't discount!" well that isn't true. I do discount under certain scenarios.
On Thursday, I gave the single largest discount in my businesses history to one customer.
I gave a $2100 discount. 50 pct off the retail price of flowers.
I still made over $1000.
It was an either or situation.... discounting certain sales is prudent and wise.
Joe
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
We have no disagreement with FD's. My Fd's know me too well and know better than to ask for 20 pct.
You have to look at your fixed costs of doing business and your excess capacity for production in order to make a smart business/production decision
this is all i am saying.
Joe
12BucksFor2Dozon
New Member
Joe, your situation is SO much different than they typical "new poster" here on FC as to be almost talking complete apples to oranges. I think you need to be very careful when you give advice to florist newcomers. Although your experience and knowledge of the industry is unmatched, you are so far removed from what its like to be a *new* industry player that I think your vision and understanding of the challenges of what it is like as a floral startup are skewed. Its almost like a grandfather trying to explain how to use MySpace to his 14 year old grandson, using his experience at the "50's Drive-In" as a reference...
You run a greenhouse, are a THIRD-GENERATION(!) florist who was taught the ropes at probably a very young age, and have a 80 year+ history in the industry! You are what I categorize as a "established filler", with an VERY entrenched clientèle of FDs and OOA senders who rely on you to fill their needs. Also, "established fillers" have a loyalty to the WSs and have a vested interest to make sure fresh, new blood is recruited into the collective, just in case a customer of theirs needs a arrangement sent to Dead Plains, AZ, and coverage there is non-existent...please no disrespect but just cold hard facts. Perhaps you individually do not think this but there are plenty of hard-core floral business people who see WS newbies are ripe pickings to make $$$ from, until they "learn the ropes".
These new posters here have no such background, and are basically working in an environment that is as different as yours as night is to day. Many of them are designers who, coming from "established WS" shops, saw how a nice steady flow of WS orders kept the other shop floating along. When *they* open a shop, they often pay the huge fees to become a "member", and then sit around for YEARS and never ever see order volume that makes them truly profitable. In the current flower buying environment, they will almost assuredly *never* see the WS as a profitable "partner", and will continue to be sucked dry with fees, container costs, and other WS "services" that the WS themselves tell analysts that is by far the most profitable segment of their business.
Anyway, I am really not trying to be disrespectful and personally value every comment you make here of FC...your industry knowledge is unmatched...I just think that you are somewhat out-of-touch about the realities of being a florist start-up in today's day and age.
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
12 I love reading your posts, but this one is garbage.
All my posts are directed at one point, Net Profit!
Learn it.
You dumb bastard! I don't spend my time here to glorify what i do. I come in here to share my experiences and hopefully help people.
For you to insinuate something is else is reprehensible!
Tell me how and what I said that isn't applicable to every florist old or new!
Lets review.
You have to take manageable risks with choosing to be affiliated with a WS or not being a memeber.
You have to cover your fixed costs and contribute to your overhead, ie contribution margins, and you have to maximize your labor's productivity.
BTW: you got the generations and the length of business tenure wrong.
Also, when i took the business over I grew the business, took risks and doubled its size in less than ten years.
Also, bought and paid for the business in 10 years. Just to be clear, nothing was given to me.
joe
prestonway
Well-Known Member
Emotional response vs. business response...hmmmm....
I know who I'm rooting for!!!
Signed
Prestonway, B.Comm., CFP, EcD
I know who I'm rooting for!!!
Signed
Prestonway, B.Comm., CFP, EcD
MANORVILLE
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- Oct 2, 2006
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The nice thing about FC is that opinions are expressed by some very knowledgeable members of the industry. Sometimes the information is easy to understand and sometimes it's a bit more complicated, but either way it is useful and helpful information.
I for one enjoy reading Joe's posts along with 12's and feel that they both make positive contributions, sometimes from both sides of the tracks, which when you think about it, makes sense to have " differring opinions " .
It mkes the reader think, and ask questions, geared toward finding the right advise or portions thereof to apply to their own business.
The other day I made reference to the necessity of both negatives and positives. This is the same thing, in the form of two different outlooks.
What works for one may not work for the other, but from the reader standpoint both opinions are very important to the decision making process of the individual reader.
Anyway, with that said, if we can take all the negative energy and use it to our advantage, the time may actually come that we can all survive in this wonderful business.
Joe & 12 Have a great Sunday !
Joe Keep me posted on the Lady Bugs !
I for one enjoy reading Joe's posts along with 12's and feel that they both make positive contributions, sometimes from both sides of the tracks, which when you think about it, makes sense to have " differring opinions " .
It mkes the reader think, and ask questions, geared toward finding the right advise or portions thereof to apply to their own business.
The other day I made reference to the necessity of both negatives and positives. This is the same thing, in the form of two different outlooks.
What works for one may not work for the other, but from the reader standpoint both opinions are very important to the decision making process of the individual reader.
Anyway, with that said, if we can take all the negative energy and use it to our advantage, the time may actually come that we can all survive in this wonderful business.
Joe & 12 Have a great Sunday !
Joe Keep me posted on the Lady Bugs !
carol
New Member
I mean no disrespect to you..but in previous posts you have complained bitterly that you did not make money with Ws and you have also complained that your wife is not making money without the WS. and I believe you have gotten a 'real job out of the florist industry' ..so I am a little stumped as to why your advise should be followed (since you say your flower shop is not making money) and Joe's advice is wrong (when his company is apparently making money).
It goes back to the fact that readers need to be careful as to whose advice they follow and whose advice they don't.. maybe we all need to review our credentials before posting??
12BucksFor2Dozon
New Member
No insinuation here, Joe..I came out and said exactly what I meant to say.
You speak of "net profit" as the be all, end of of business decision making...ok then, lets say that in case 1., you fill 15 WS orders a week, and send 7...you are busy all week, and even make a "net profit", after paying ALL the WS fees, dues, add-on, tech crap, web site etc etc stuff, of $100. In your world, this $100, I guess, makes fantastic business sense and is the cut-n-dried bottom line. $100, whooptidoo!!!!
However, this "dumb bastard" sees it differently...this same business has spent all this time, costs, aggravation of waiting to get paid, etc etc for a measly $100 profit. All the time spent *could* have been spent marketing, calling around, taking web pics. Dumb Bastard thinks, AS A NEW BUSINESS OWNER AND NOT AN ESTABLISHED WS FILLER/SENDER, that, over time, the marketing efforts will be *vastly* more profitable then the $100.
I am sorry that you felt the need to start calling me names in this thread...for me it is officially closed. Have a great day, Joe, and keep rah-rahing for your beloved wire services.
12BucksFor2Dozon
New Member
Carol...credentials? Sure, here goes...
Opened shop in 2002 with about $100k...did not know a @@@@ thing about the industry...was sold a total load of dung by slimly WS reps, and was lied to and cheated out of 1000's of dollars. Tried to work the WS game but realized. a little too late in my book, I had been bamboozled with a shell game, and got out.
Worked hard 3 years, and my SHOP IS PROFITABLE, tyvm...something no other new shop in a 50 mile radius can say. At least 5 have started and failed since 2002. You may have heard of the real estate boom? Well, in my neck of the woods it hit hard, with beachside property values tripling in 3 years. The shop does not make enough profit for my wife and I to afford to live here now, so I went back to work. Financially, things are looking fantastic nowadays, with both net and gross profit at the shop exceeding goals.
So, my shop has grown 20+%/year for the last three years. We now have over 8 local vendors referring to us as "the ONLY florist is Brevard county to consider using"...not convinced? Call *any* resort hotel within a 10 mile radius of my shop, ask for the event or banquet manager, and start talking flowers. Please, do!
Just because, IMO, I think Joe is out of touch with the realities of being a new shop owner shouldn't make me some type of FC Neanderthal...
I wish I had a $1 for every student who has taken a class from my husband after they bought/opened a flower shop. They only decided to get a deeper understanding of the business after they'd sunk tremendous amounts of money into it and realized (sometimes too late) that passion wasn't enough to sustain their stores.
New stores have some very different issues than older ones. Start-ups need to establish brand identity in a much more crowded marketplace. They often rely on location, which usually saddles them with incredibly high overhead. To help with product rotation until they gain more local customers, some will look to WSs as a source of orders - but without fully understanding the true cost of buying orders (yes, buying) from the WSs.
Additionally, metro florists have some very different issues than rural ones. In a metro area, a florist has a much larger pool of customers and can profit by specialization. Rural stores generally need to offer a much larger array of services to diversify their opportunities fr sales.
12Bucks, why is it so hard to understand that the various types of florists - old, new, large, small, city, suburb, rural, traditional, contemporary, bread & butter, couture, etc... have different issues, opportunities and solutions?
It's not Joe's (or any other florist's) fault that you were taken in by promises from a WS rep. Had you called him then, he probably could have saved you a bunch of money and heartache. To vent on him now because his company continues to generate income from WS participation - because he has a deep understanding of the floral industry and his own business' place in it - is misdirected anger.
He's not advocating anything more than each florists doing their own homework and number crunching. That's sound advice - and more florists should do it before they leap into reationships with WSs or any other vendor.
New stores have some very different issues than older ones. Start-ups need to establish brand identity in a much more crowded marketplace. They often rely on location, which usually saddles them with incredibly high overhead. To help with product rotation until they gain more local customers, some will look to WSs as a source of orders - but without fully understanding the true cost of buying orders (yes, buying) from the WSs.
Additionally, metro florists have some very different issues than rural ones. In a metro area, a florist has a much larger pool of customers and can profit by specialization. Rural stores generally need to offer a much larger array of services to diversify their opportunities fr sales.
12Bucks, why is it so hard to understand that the various types of florists - old, new, large, small, city, suburb, rural, traditional, contemporary, bread & butter, couture, etc... have different issues, opportunities and solutions?
It's not Joe's (or any other florist's) fault that you were taken in by promises from a WS rep. Had you called him then, he probably could have saved you a bunch of money and heartache. To vent on him now because his company continues to generate income from WS participation - because he has a deep understanding of the floral industry and his own business' place in it - is misdirected anger.
He's not advocating anything more than each florists doing their own homework and number crunching. That's sound advice - and more florists should do it before they leap into reationships with WSs or any other vendor.
How does the above statement warrant the following emotional response?
Why should anyone take advice from someone that will refer to them as a "dumb bastard"?
Eric S
Demoted Webmaster
No winners and no losers here.
The wire service sucks for some and yet for others it is an intricate part of their business.
I think many of us that have been burned and learned from our own mistakes related to the wire service don't want it to happen to anyone else. Just like myself I have learned from my own mistakes with doing business with the wire service. We don't want to wait for 20 years to make money we want it now!!!
Mark you and I figured it out (listening to the ones that really know) and our business will continue to grow much faster than the shop struggling with filling the junk that is passed down from the Wire Service.
They will figure it out on their own.
The wire service sucks for some and yet for others it is an intricate part of their business.
I think many of us that have been burned and learned from our own mistakes related to the wire service don't want it to happen to anyone else. Just like myself I have learned from my own mistakes with doing business with the wire service. We don't want to wait for 20 years to make money we want it now!!!
Mark you and I figured it out (listening to the ones that really know) and our business will continue to grow much faster than the shop struggling with filling the junk that is passed down from the Wire Service.
They will figure it out on their own.
MANORVILLE
New Member
- Oct 2, 2006
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I wish I had a $1 for every student who has taken a class from my husband after they bought/opened a flower shop. They only decided to get a deeper understanding of the business after they'd sunk tremendous amounts of money into it and realized (sometimes too late) that passion wasn't enough to sustain their stores.
New stores have some very different issues than older ones. Start-ups need to establish brand identity in a much more crowded marketplace. They often rely on location, which usually saddles them with incredibly high overhead. To help with product rotation until they gain more local customers, some will look to WSs as a source of orders - but without fully understanding the true cost of buying orders (yes, buying) from the WSs.
Additionally, metro florists have some very different issues than rural ones. In a metro area, a florist has a much larger pool of customers and can profit by specialization. Rural stores generally need to offer a much larger array of services to diversify their opportunities fr sales.
12Bucks, why is it so hard to understand that the various types of florists - old, new, large, small, city, suburb, rural, traditional, contemporary, bread & butter, couture, etc... have different issues, opportunities and solutions?
It's not Joe's (or any other florist's) fault that you were taken in by promises from a WS rep. Had you called him then, he probably could have saved you a bunch of money and heartache. To vent on him now because his company continues to generate income from WS participation - because he has a deep understanding of the floral industry and his own business' place in it - is misdirected anger.
He's not advocating anything more than each florists doing their own homework and number crunching. That's sound advice - and more florists should do it before they leap into reationships with WSs or any other vendor.
If I knew 4 1/2 years ago, what I've learned here at FC, and because of FC, I would have been down in Daytona for the week.
Relating to 12's anger and frustration comes easy to us as we were definately on the receiving end of a WS enema from the get go.
As we've become more knowledgeable and built the business away from them the anger and frustration has continued to grow. It will never go away, nor will the memories of very lean times while we grew as avid supporters of our "partners" !
If the WS is really working for a shop, for whatever reason, then the shop will stay with them. If not they will either quit, wait it out in the hope that things will change, or lose the business eventually. The WS does work for shops that have worked them into their business plan, but for many others
12 , as you yourself know, it just ain't happenin' !
You, 12, and Joe, kick some serious butt in your respective markets and have both found what works for you individually. That's great for you guys!
While your ways may work great for you both, neither may work for us, and visaversa. It's the same with anyone.
The key is for all of us to stay united, while still holding on to our individuality " or we'll be ordering that Big Mac with the funeral spray at the drive through window before we know it ".
****Off to the local watering hole now. Having a Chile Harley Run today !
On the way back from the Wedding Showcase must have seen 500 bikes.
Hope everyone has a better day !
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
When you want someone to hear and understand what you are saying when they aren't listening.
You give it to them loud and dirty.
12, I haven't even come close to giving you or anyone else here at FC the emotional rollercoaster rides or financials issues that I have experienced with my business!
Flower shop issues are nothing compared to the greenhouse side of my business.
Joe.
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