Direct Sending Discount Controversy

[Mark Anderson]

I'm hoping that some of you can clear up something that I have never completely understood. Please understand that I'm not promoting an opinion, policy or position here - I'm just trying to understand the feelings that are already out there.

There are a certain number of florists who are (or would like to try) getting along without membership in a wire service. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, something to emulate or something to avoid - it's just the way it is.

If these shops want to offer their local customers "full" service they may find themselves having to arrange for a florist in another town to prepare/deliver an order.

Since they don't belong to a wire service they have to send it directly - they contact a florist in the destination city and ask them if they would be interested in filling the order and be paid by the sending florist.

Sometimes the sending florist is met with outright hostility - the potential filling florist feels that the sender is somehow cheating and slams the phone down.

Why is that? Is it because of loyalty to the wire service model and/or a particular wire service? This is the first part of what I'm trying to understand.

If the potential filling florist is okay with working without a wire service it then seems that the sending florist can also get into trouble if they ask the filling florist for a discount.

As an outsider asking for a discount doesn't seem that outrageous to me. The idea of a professional discount between peers is not uncommon. It also makes good business sense - a portion of your retail prices are presumably intended for marketing to your local customers. If a florist from another city calls you up that business is essentially a gift - there was no cost involved in generating the sale. Is it unreasonable to pass along a discount?

It confuses me because a florist who pays hundreds of dollars a month just to belong to a wire service and advertise in their directory is happy to fill orders for about 70 cents on the dollar - even on orders that were generated by that wire service's website and did not come from another "real" florist. If however another florist asks them for a discount on a direct order they lose their mind.

Why is that? If I was a sending shop it seems like a pretty nice deal. On an order that comes through a wire service I'm going to get about 70% of the order value. If I get a direct order why not give some kind of discount - as long as it's less than 30% it seems like you're winning.

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious - I'm just trying to understand the business better.

Thanks!

 

[bloomz]

Mark - good question. But the sending receiving and discounts are based on a tit for tat relationship. If a shop uses a wire service - how would they ever find that florist when the need comes to send to that city?

Their discount is the several hundred dollars a month that they don't have to spend to be a part of this, so they aren't (IMO) deserving of the benefits of it.

I'll gladly take an order from a florist on a credit card - it would just be nuts not to, but no discount. And this is not to mention the sales tax stuff which doesn't happen to concern me since I am in a no sales tax state.

We pay a lot to be in a wire service - when you quit that, you give up the benefits, including discounts and access to directories, selection guides and images. You'll find even many of the anti wire service crusaders here have wire service images on their web sites. They want the benefits without paying the costs. And maybe that's why some nut up on them when they want to send a direct order at a discount?

 

[Joe Mioux]

Mark - good question. But the sending receiving and discounts are based on a tit for tat relationship. If a shop uses a wire service - how would they ever find that florist when the need comes to send to that city?

Their discount is the several hundred dollars a month that they don't have to spend to be a part of this, so they aren't (IMO) deserving of the benefits of it.

I'll gladly take an order from a florist on a credit card - it would just be nuts not to, but no discount. And this is not to mention the sales tax stuff which doesn't happen to concern me since I am in a no sales tax state.

We pay a lot to be in a wire service - when you quit that, you give up the benefits, including discounts and access to directories, selection guides and images. You'll find even many of the anti wire service crusaders here have wire service images on their web sites. They want the benefits without paying the costs. And maybe that's why some nut up on them when they want to send a direct order at a discount?

JB:

You are nuts on!....

Mark Anderson;


I welcome all business. All I want is full payment for a Florist to Florist transaction.

I do not understand why a florist just can not charge their customer for the cost of the transaction and ask for a reasonable profit.

Let the sending florist charge their customer.

Don't ask some stranger (receiving florist) for a commision.

Is that so much to ask for?

Consider this....

We all know the Funeral Home business is notrious for asking for a 20 pct commission for their referred business. And most every florist I know resents having to give a FD a 20 pct commission for sales directed towards the florist.

In my opinion, there is no difference.


Please provide commentary to these two scenarios, Mark.

Joe

 

[Mark Anderson]

Thanks for the feedback!

Please provide commentary to these two scenarios, Mark.

Like I said I'm only trying to understand the prevailing attitudes. I know that I don't understand all of the issues here and really don't have an opinion of my own. And, since I'm not a florist, I don't feel I'm entitled to have one - much less inflict it on those of you that are!

Thanks again!

 

[Michelle McMichael]

Whenever we discuss sending orders without a wire service, we keep coming back to one instance a few years back. We are TF and one of our best customers ordered a $750 funeral piece to go back to the midwest. The receiving florist had the order several days in advance. For some reason, the florist did not send the item to the service, but to THE HOME the next day, after all the family had left. They said it was a decision based upon one of the family members. Our customer was obviously upset, but the florist refused to do anything about it. TF went to bat for us and completely refunded us and we refunded our customer. If we had sent this direct, I don't know how we would have recovered that $750.

In the end, I agree with the previous posters. We pay for the privileges that come with TF. If another shop wants to call us an order and pay for it with a credit card, that's fine, but I assume that they have collected a service charge from their customer and we do not offer discounts. (We don't even give discounts to funeral homes!) If I get a little nuts (which I usually don't) it's because the person requesting the discount is completely unknown to me and is often rude in demanding a discount, telling me that they are a real florist and have been in business for 184 1/2 years in the same location.

By the way, we have also had a florist call in with a credit card at a holiday - credit card declined, ask for a second one, authorized, then claim filed against us the following month saying they never ordered anything from us. So I guess we can be a little skittish!

 

[bloomz]

I forgot to toss this in. Do a bit of math - I think I've heard the average florist sends 30-50 orders a month. The savings of around $500 a month (full boat everything wire service membership) means they are saving/making (apenny saved is penny earned?) $10-16.60 per order! Plus whatever they charge for a service/relay fee.

How's that for some pretzel logic fer ya?

 

[Jerry]

Short and sweet

I forgot to toss this in. Do a bit of math - I think I've heard the average florist sends 30-50 orders a month. The savings of around $500 a month (full boat everything wire service membership) means they are saving/making (apenny saved is penny earned?) $10-16.60 per order! Plus whatever they charge for a service/relay fee.

How's that for some pretzel logic fer ya?

For Mark...........Florists are designers or hobbiests, not number crunchers. Simple as that. Once you figure out that there is no logic in this industry, then you will have figured it all out.

For Bloomz........ Exactly, spot on. But don't forget about our rebate program, you know the one. You have made my point, that I have said for years now. If a florist only sends out 60 or less orders per month, they are crazy to belong in a service that does FUZZY MATH.

Numbers don't lie, but people do.

 

[Jerry]

I forgot one of the most important reason that I have learned WHY most florists can not get out of the WS system. Are you ready for this profound statement.

They either have no credit cards(maxed out), or they do not have a high enough limit to send out 60 orders per mth x $50 average = $3000. They are maxed, no credit any mo. But wait, the WS is set up to carry them thru the month without having to pay for anything till the end. They have figured it out long before I.

And that alone will keep the florists out of making money being WS free. Quite amazing but it's the truth.

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Florists are wacko....literally!!
Why florists have to complicate things so badly is really beyond me!!
Mark......simply put, IF your goal is to send AND receive orders from other jurisdictions, you need to belong to a "club" of florists!!
IF your goal is to "send" your orders wire service free, it's simple.....charge your customer your "sending fee" if you have one, lop 10% (or whatever) off the order...keep in nominal, and make sure you send the entire balance to the florist by way of direct payment with a credit card!!
It's no wonder so many potential "fill florists" slam down their phones...when the sending florist starts "negotiating" for a discount of some sort...does that REALLY MEAN that the filling florist is stupid enough to fill a 100 dollar order, with 90 dollars payment, with NO chance of reciprocation??
There's a TON of florists that just don't get it...they need to GET OUT!!:soapbox:

 

[Connie]

OK, here goes. I feel that I'm repeating myself again and again.

We are WS free simply because we were losing money having a WS. We are small enough that we only received rebates once, maybe twice in the entire 5+ years that we were members of WSs. Even when we stopped buying containers, ads, websites, etc., etc., we found that we simply were not making money. In fact, for us, the WS seemed to be a regular money pit. We had some very negative problems with WS, particularly with TF at one time, but even those were not the real reason we left them. It was simply that we were tired of losing money every month.

Now that we order directly, or via IFA, we are quite happy. We have not encountered any rudeness on the part of any florist except the occasional one who will not accept an order unless it comes through their wire service. Sometimes we are even subjected to a lecture from them concerning how the WS has worked for the industry all these years and deserves our support, etc. We do not lecture in return, we simply move on and consider them unenlightened.

As for the discount issue. If a florist asks for that discount, we give it. It is our feeling that, as Mark said (sort of), the order is one for which we did not work to acquire. I feel they have worked harder for that money than the other customers who demand discounts, including certain business, churches, and schools. Perhaps it is a throw-back to our WS days, but I really have no problem giving that discount. And we do fill the order to 100%. Even if that is a loss, it is not as much of a loss as we were seeing with the WS. We do not skim on either end of this issue.

We also ask, when wiring out an order, if the florist gives the 80-20 discount. Some say no but offer 10%. Some say just no. Whatever is fine with us. If the florist demands the 100% or whatever, we give it. The important thing to us is getting the order filled for our customer.

I have absolutely no hard feelings toward anyone who is still in WS. It is the choice of each shop to run that business as is best for that business. I do try to enlighten my fellow florists, many of whom are even smaller than we are, to the fallacy of believing that the receiving of a check from the WS is an indication of success (making money) and of believing that the WS are helping to build business and our industry.

My frustration comes from those florists who are constantly whining about not making any money and they refuse to even consider giving up even one of their WS, refusing to even hear criticism of those beloved services. I have also come to understand that some of these same florists depend on those incoming orders in order to have any/many orders. They are afraid of the affect of the loss of that number of orders on their staffing and their appearance of success (as in number of deliveries each day).

Our website, as far as I know, is free of any WS images. We do have some IFA and SAF images. We are trying to fill our site with our own images, but since I'm the only one who does that, it is a slow and sometimes painful process.

I do resent being lumped together with sending only florists, with skimmers, with rude people, and other types of name calling simply because we have chosen to be free of the entanglements of being a member of a WS. I do, however, try not to take it too personally, but to look for the learning that can be had even in criticism.

The bottom line for us the exactly that. The bottom line is blacker than when we we in the WS. No hints of red in that line.

 

[Carrington]

Thanks for the feedback!

since I'm not a florist, I don't feel I'm entitled to have one - much less inflict it on those of you that are!
!

Mark

I'm not a florist either but sometimes it is better to look at things from a non florist position simply because - to quote a ghastly phrase - you can look outside the box.

My personal feeling is that the whole attitude to order transmission charges needs to be changed. Florist have to get out of the mind set that they will earn 20% of everything and instead view any order transmission as a service which is charge to the consumer at a flat rate charge - say, $10 (we are recommending £5 in the UK) with the price of the order itself and delivery sent through 100% to the executing florist.

While I accept that may result in a less than 20% earn on some orders, it is still better value for the customer and, quite frankly, with technology today, it needn't take as long to take/transmit an order.

I have had this debate with some British florists who are adamant that 20% of everything is fair and the absolute minimum they need/deserve because they have to cover overhead, wages, telephone time, credit card charges etc.

However I personally think that's a little shortsighted and given it is possible for customers to go direct there is an argument that actually you're lucky to get anything on sending out an order and at least that person has come into your shop or called you in order to maintain a relationship.

To me order transmission should be viewed as a service or CRM .... not a major money making excercise in the same way incoming orders should be viewed as icing on the cake ... not a way of propping your business up.

Local business - from the area you are based in must form the lions share of business not anything that is dependent on a third party.

Just a thought!

 

[MANORVILLE]

Too many potential quotes here, so here it goes without them :

I personally know at least 30 to 40 shop owners that hate...........the WS,
and complain constantly.
Heck, I complain too !
They, as I, know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the WS must go.
However, until each respective business can sustain without them, every shop is locked in, or can quit and lose their business.
Now some may dispute what I've just said. I expect that !
However, if the shop has little walk-in, phone in or FTF direct, there could be a problem.
If the shop does not use the customer info. from WS orders to their advantage, there could be a problem.
So, until all the criteria is met to warrant being WS free, people will continue to complain and " Whine ".
Been there, still here, and got the scars to prove it.

As far as orders:
When we started the WS sucked us in.
Bombarded us with orders.
One Mother's Day, our first, they dumped over 700 orders on us on the last day, Saturday, before MD.
What a nightmare ! We were new and finally finished the orders two days after. Lost appx. 183 for late delivery, after the smoke cleared.
Since then, costs to WS went up, orders in dropped down.
Upgraded, modified, re-thought, and played the game according to our well trusted partners in the WS.
" Sucked us in time and time again".

Check you maps ! We are the only shop, only shop, only shop, ( smack ), & only 7 day shop in our town. ( Huge geographical area ).
We deliver from Yaphank through the Hamptons, and everywhere in-between, every day, up to 4 times per day.
We are the only shop, open 7 days per week, extended hours, using the highest quality product money can buy. Even have customers and florists that call us during off hours, on our cell phones when they need something late or in an emergency.
Why then would you say that 70% of our own towns WS business goes to other florists, sometimes in areas 10 to 15 miles away ? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
FTD is the worst with this by far, and yes we have allowed it because we built our walkin, call in, email in 1,000% over what they are screwing us for.
TF on the other hand has never produced, and if you're not on TF's " A List ", you will not get the orders. TF is favoritism and manipulation at it's finest.
To combat the TF issues we found ways to use them to our adavntage as well.
( So about now everyone is asking why we still belong ? )

It's called building a business ! You can never stop building !
Finding ways to take the WS customer and then succeeding was one of the " most rewarding " things I've done yet.
They do it, so why couldn't I ?

And.......after years of playing the game.... and taking their sender, senders wife, mother, other family members, friends...and so on...., we are just about ready to tell them where to go.
Then we can be assurred that we can sustain.

( P.S. ) The favoritism is not limited to the two aforementioned WS, as you probably all know anyway !
But that's another story that may unfold when and if the time is right.
( Every inch of our shop, and adjoining buildings, along with the property, is fully wired, with video & audio, and captures all of those " special moments " ).
Can you read between the lines here ? Nuff said on that issue !

A lot of other things were reflected upon in this thread. Some I agree with, some I don't.
It doesn't make anyone right or wrong, because all of us have our own opinions,..........and issues.

One day, hopefully soon, maybe everyone can be be on the same page, so that we can survive the changes that are definately headed our way.

 

[Kristine]

Thank you Connie,
You hit the nail on the head for us too.

As a small shop, I charge a service/convience fee for providing to my customer the ability to send to any geographic area where I don't deliver. I give 100% and don't ask for a discount.
I have a couple of florists with whom we send back and forth with frequently and we give each other a small courtesy discount.

What ticks me off is when I call and a FWOAC will not even take my order at 100% or they suddenly need to jack up the price of the requested item even when we have accessed their web site and found the item we need for X price and suddenly it becomes XX price because we are a florist and not john q public.

For the most part reputable florists are very accomidating and we keep those listed as prefered. Those hobby florists who agravate quickly make the do not use list.......

 

[CHERYL BAKIN]

Mark,
I have to agree with what several posters said (JB, Michelle, Joe).
Belonging to a WS costs money & brings with it certain priviledges. When you become WS free, you lose the costs, and certainly should lose the expectation of priviledges!

Taking an order via CC at 100% is something that we are ready, willing & able to do -- directly or thru IFA. When we have been called by an IFA member, and have stated that we do not give a f2f discount of 20%, WE have be hung up on! What's up with that??? We joined IFA as a 100% member only -- !!!

I have had florists call me & give me up to 3 (yes 3) cc, which were all declined!! The ideas expressed above of the WS being a "lending institution" is indeed true.

I agree that the florists could collect from its customer a "reasonable" service fee for transmitting the order to me.....then transmit the order at 100%, including the delivery fee. We have a number of shops that we do business with on a regular, monthly basis. The service fee they generally collect from their customer is around $12 to $15.00 per order.

Also keep in mind that a F2F CC order does cost ME, the filling florist, a fee -- it's the 2+% credit card processing fee that we pay for processing the CC. And keep in mind that since this order was called in (or faxed) to me, should the sender decide to dispute the charges with his/her CC company, I DO NOT HAVE MUCH OF A LEG TO STAND ON. In other words, I, the Filler, have borne all the risk here!!

I have been in this business for many years, and have found that florists seem to follow the "that's the way it has always been done" rules. The rules don't always make sense any more....and many florists do not know how or do not want to adapt.

Just my 2 cents!

Cheryl

 

[Jerry]

What the hay

Florists are wacko....literally!!
Why florists have to complicate things so badly is really beyond me!!
Mark......simply put, IF your goal is to send AND receive orders from other jurisdictions, you need to belong to a "club" of florists!!
IF your goal is to "send" your orders wire service free, it's simple.....charge your customer your "sending fee" if you have one, lop 10% (or whatever) off the order...keep in nominal, and make sure you send the entire balance to the florist by way of direct payment with a credit card!!
It's no wonder so many potential "fill florists" slam down their phones...when the sending florist starts "negotiating" for a discount of some sort...does that REALLY MEAN that the filling florist is stupid enough to fill a 100 dollar order, with 90 dollars payment, with NO chance of reciprocation??
There's a TON of florists that just don't get it...they need to GET OUT!!:soapbox:

Why not just LOP off the customers head while your at it.

Charge a fee and then LOP off a %, Mikey you should stay with the WS, it will be cheaper for your outgoing customers.

 

[Buzz]

who's carrying who?

I forgot one of the most important reason that I have learned WHY most florists can not get out of the WS system. Are you ready for this profound statement.

They either have no credit cards(maxed out), or they do not have a high enough limit to send out 60 orders per mth x $50 average = $3000. They are maxed, no credit any mo. But wait, the WS is set up to carry them thru the month without having to pay for anything till the end. They have figured it out long before I.

And that alone will keep the florists out of making money being WS free. Quite amazing but it's the truth.

Most florist that belong to the wire services just look at the check they recieve for filling orders. What they don't think about is who is really carrying who? It's true that if a shop sends 60 orders at $50 each, they would need a credit line of $3000. However, the problem is that there are so many successfull dOG's that most real shops receive more than they send. In comparision if a shop sends 60 orders per month, they might receive 100 orders per month. 100 orders X $50 each = $5000. If the filling shop recieves approximately 73% of that they get $3650 from the wire service 30-45 days later! The florist is carrying the wire service, not the other way around! And this is not to mention the monthy charges for the directory, dove/merc and COGS, etc. It's like paying someone to take your money and pay you back at a discounted rate at a later date. By simply taking a 80/20 florist-to-florist CC order your already coming out ahead in two areas. You get 80% of the order instead of 73%. And you get payment right away instead of waiting over a month for the WS to cut you a check. Third, your also saving by avoiding the monthy membership fees to the WS, including all of the transmission fees, directory fees etc. It is true that the filling shop takes on a little more risk due to possible CC chargebacks, but what you save will likely make greater difference vs. an occasional CC chargeback. :hammer:

 

[12BucksFor2Dozon]

.,..
My personal feeling is that the whole attitude to order transmission charges needs to be changed.
...

You said a mouthful there!

 

[Joe Mioux]

The florist is carrying the wire service, not the other way around! And this is not to mention the monthy charges for the directory, dove/merc and COGS, etc.

I just want to clarify a minor point.

The WS is the clearing house..They take no owneship of orders. The receiving florist is carrying the sending florist.

 

[MANORVILLE]

I just want to clarify a minor point.

The WS is the clearing house..They take no owneship of orders. The receiving florist is carrying the sending florist.

Seems like a major point to me Joe !:beer

 

[Bigted]

We don't like to take discounted orders from other florists, and we never ask for discounts. It's called SKIMMING! Charging the customer $100 but telling the other florist "Oh just make it for $80" is just plain wrong. It's stealing from the customer and you can try and justify it any way you want.

Now, you say, what about the WS? Ok, frankly, what they are doing is also wrong, but they have an agreement with florists to make the exact arrangement for 73% of the money. THEORETICALLY, they are not stealing from the customer but from the filling florist.

The whole 20/80 rebate system needs to go away and be replaced by charging a wireservice fee that the customer can see. This would solve a ton of problems in this industry, including getting rid of some undesirables.