FTD is bleeding me dry and won't let me out

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

I find as florist we often lose focus of just what a wire service is to our business, it is simply that, a service that we offer our customers. No need for two, why would we duplicate any service, and depending on the demand from your customers for out of town orders, there may be no need at all. A membership to a wire service I would argue is never going to grow your business. Like all the services, they are in the business to make money, to provide you a means to send flowers worldwide easliy, again, just a service. Inwires are a penalty of membership to me. No more should any shop be bullied by these services. The need for these services is going to decline for sure as the majority of the population ages and our buyers become more savy to ordering over the internet. We all need to be careful that as the need for FTD etc declines, we don't let it take our business with it in the mean time. Go forward and if the use of a wire service doesn't fit your business, get rid of them, pay it out, in the long run you will be better off.

here's the WORST PROBLEM......
what's the likelihood we'll hear from our "newbie" free trial members again??...they've been very quiet!!

 

[Missy]

followed by


Just clarifying: When you say inwires are a penalty of membership, how is that compatible with you sending orders easily through the WS?

Either you're then penalizing the receiving shop by creating an inwire (doubt that, since I know your shop!)
or
You were referring more to OG/HQ orders, in which case it should be clarified

Penalty is perhaps the wrong word, I guess I am trying to say it would be nice financially to just send and not have to fill as far as providing the service to your customer at a profit. But thats not the way a wire service works

 

[lori042499]

Melissa, for some it does...Just ask Just flowers how it works for them...

You don't have to fill, just list your minimums at 99.00 and delivery at 20.00 that way you are sure to only reap the best orders offered on the wire ins...

 

[BOSS]

Penalty is perhaps the wrong word, I guess I am trying to say it would be nice financially to just send and not have to fill as far as providing the service to your customer at a profit. But thats not the way a wire service works

That's exactly "how" the wires services work for many. None of the gatherers fill, or even touch a single stem... Many of the biggest shops in the US send many many orders, yet reject every incoming order sent to them...

If you don't complain to the wires that "I'm not getting enough incoming orders", and you have some to send, they will gladly let you play the game that way because they are trying to get orders for all the filler fools that do complain. Sending orders is the profitable side, filling is not. Personally I feel that if you don't fill, you should not send...but that's not the way a wire service works...

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

I Hate OG's.....(HOGs)

 

[jamie]

I have seen several people state that sending orders is the profitable side. Technically, yes it is profitable, but it is only pennies on the dollar. Unless you become an aggressive order gatherer there is never going to be enough profit to justify the PITA of dealing with out of town orders. The OG services charge stupid back end fees that are only going to piss off customers if they ever see what they actually get. They also use cheap labor in other countries, or work-from-home "contract" commission labor that actually pay "for the business oppurtunity". Furthermore, many of these companies (ftd included) are owned by larger conglomerates who use the client list for other marketing, so they make more money off of those contacts (sometimes legally grey area dealings, I might add).

I firmly believe that camera phones spell the end of days for OGs. People spend roughly $60.00 on a tiny $30.00+$9.99 delivery arrangement, and better cameraphones are letting people actually see what they paid for. That's great for legitimate florists whose reputations rely on quality work, but it is very very bad for the Precious Heart Bouquet.

I fill for FTD and FTD.com is the only OG I knowingly fill for. The WS gives me a nice little bonus income every month and covers my outgoing order comissions, but I will be dropping them this year because I am getting more and more complaints that "my friends/husband/children would never send me a puny short arrangement like that!" Even though I filled it well over value.

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

I have seen several people state that sending orders is the profitable side. Technically, yes it is profitable, but it is only pennies on the dollar. Unless you become an aggressive order gatherer there is never going to be enough profit to justify the PITA of dealing with out of town orders. The OG services charge stupid back end fees that are only going to piss off customers if they ever see what they actually get. They also use cheap labor in other countries, or work-from-home "contract" commission labor that actually pay "for the business oppurtunity". Furthermore, many of these companies (ftd included) are owned by larger conglomerates who use the client list for other marketing, so they make more money off of those contacts (sometimes legally grey area dealings, I might add).

I firmly believe that camera phones spell the end of days for OGs. People spend roughly $60.00 on a tiny $30.00+$9.99 delivery arrangement, and better cameraphones are letting people actually see what they paid for. That's great for legitimate florists whose reputations rely on quality work, but it is very very bad for the Precious Heart Bouquet.

I fill for FTD and FTD.com is the only OG I knowingly fill for. The WS gives me a nice little bonus income every month and covers my outgoing order comissions, but I will be dropping them this year because I am getting more and more complaints that "my friends/husband/children would never send me a puny short arrangement like that!" Even though I filled it well over value.

this IS the "trend" but, let me "refresh" your memory......when you SEND orders, you get a 20% commission (a used car salesman's dream) for taking a person's money, less membership "overheads", and YES, it IS becoming more troublesome to get "quality" at the other end!!
When you "receive" orders. you get paid around 63 cents on the dollar PLUS your membership "overheads".....
Hmmm. so let me ask you this.......a bride walks in, books a wedding for $1000.00 dollars, puts down the deposit, YOU do the work, she comes in to pay, a week ahead of the wedding, gives you a TOTAL of $630.00, and THAT makes you "happy"??....<exact analogy>

 

[jamie]

It is technically profitable, but I have a feeling most traditional shops similar to my size are like mine and only send around 20 or so orders a month out of town. It's not worth the membership dues (about $300.00 for FTD) plus the $99.00 mercury fee. My average order value is $65.00, so that means my whopping 20% pure profit is $260.00 plus $60.00 in sending bonuses per month minus $399.00 a month in fees, and if I want to do an honest job because this is a good client, I will call the shop when I place the order to clarify what I want then call again to make sure it got delivered on time. Yes, I will take a modest wire fee $7.95 per order which nets me $159.00, so now I am up about $80 (minus CC percentages/invoicing costs) for the month.... I hope there was no problem collecting payment from my client, finding a filling florist in Pigfart, AR, or getting a filling florist who does shoddy work.

Whereas, the wedding analogy is really a poor example because it is a VERY bad idea to pay for labor to fill WS orders. WS orders pay 73% minus fees. If you run a 30% CoGS and have to pay extra labor, there is nothing left over. However, if you want to pay me $730.00 for a $1000.00 wedding order that I can do myself, I will actually jump on that if I don't have my own wedding booked AND as long as you do the marketing, consultation, sales and pay the taxes on it. I'll put $430.00 dollars in my pocket for one day's work.

The truth is your and my wedding analogies oversimplify things. I firmly believe that the future of brick and mortar florists lie in the past. We need to reposition ourselves as a niche luxury expense, start competing on value and stop competing on price. Wire services are a 20th century technology that is being cleverly abused in the 21st century. We all need to stop using them, but until I get out of my contract, I will be doing my best to maximize my WS profits (as little as they are)

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

aha Jamie......eventually you'll catch on that the "compromising" part of this whole recurring "debate" is ONE florist trying to convince ANOTHER florist his or her "comprehensive reasons" to retain membership in companies that DON'T see you as "members"....just stats and milk!
Taken from YOUR "context".....your "fees/taxes/extortion" charges from a wire service remain the same, REGARDLESS if you send or recieve...so, simply put, retention of membership means you'd be FAR more "profitable" sending as many orders as possible, and turning AWAY as many orders as is possible...even if you gotta STEAL them!
May God Bless those that are willing to do a thousand dollar wedding for $630.00........it's very clever marketing....you "almost "sound like an OG already! <kidding>
The "TRUTH IS", there is NOTHING GOOD left for you, the florist, in retaining membership, at the rates YOU are paying for them!!
I would SUGGEST STRONGLY that you NEGOTIATE those blood charges down a little...or put, your ws on notice, that you're NOT gonna take it anymore!!...THEN, we'll "re-examine" the parallels of our analogies!

 

[roysecityfloristand gifts]

I'm sorry Jamie, but there's no way I'd take $630.00 for a $1,000.00 anything!
That's just silly.
If your sitting around bored out of your mind then go ahead lose money.

I'm WS free and glad of it. No more going crazy making the Bums look good at the expense of my pocketbook.
With the time and money I'm saving, I'm marketing MY business and that's where an owners efforts should be directed.

JMHO

 

[roysecityfloristand gifts]

Jamie, I checked out Killians website, says business has been around for 50+ years.

I'm wondering now are you the owner or an employee? I ask because that would explain your post to me. Owners have really different opinions than employees do, I think.

Thanks.

 

[jamie]

Yes, I am an owner. I don't see how that would explain anything about my post. Teleflora has a 10" thick directory of filling florists and FTD has an 8" thick directory of filling florists. All of those shops have owners. Everyone who deals with a WS knows that the profit margins are not that great.

It seems to me that everytime someone mentions a WS a handful of the members on this forum see RED and more or less copy and paste the same refrain. I think it is more important to read the entire post, and respond with helpful advice specific to the questions being asked. The Wire Services forum should be renamed the Quit Wire Services Now forum unless we start to bring a little objectivity to our responses.

The original poster claims that FTD is bleeding her dry, but the truth is her lack of critical business acumen is bleeding her dry. I have not seen her monthly statements, but from hearing the testimony, she is losing all of her filling comission payments to punitive fees for accepting mercury orders(by default) but not filling them. FTD charges you double the value of an arrangement if you accept the order and do not deliver it.

Now take a deep breath and count backwards from 10 because I want you to get this part:

I do not propose that FTD is a huge moneymaker. I think, like I said earlier, that WSs are going the way of the dodo. The fees are going up, and filling florists will only pay so much. Also, the back end "processing fee" that OGs charge put a bad taste in the mouth of consumers. I am seeing many more people call me directly because they are old JustFlowers customers, but they are tired of getting arrangments that look nothing like what they ordered. Then when they realize my delivery fee is half their processing fee they are ecstatic. Without OGs, the WS have no allure for 95% of the shops.

This year I will be leaving all wire services because most of my WS orders come from online purchases. The customers get overcharged and have unreasonable expectations because of dishonest photos and selections of 200+ unique arrangements. This is not honest marketing, and is hurting my reputation in the long run.

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Yes, I am an owner. I don't see how that would explain anything about my post. Teleflora has a 10" thick directory of filling florists and FTD has an 8" thick directory of filling florists. All of those shops have owners. Everyone who deals with a WS knows that the profit margins are not that great.

It seems to me that everytime someone mentions a WS a handful of the members on this forum see RED and more or less copy and paste the same refrain. I think it is more important to read the entire post, and respond with helpful advice specific to the questions being asked. The Wire Services forum should be renamed the Quit Wire Services Now forum unless we start to bring a little objectivity to our responses.

The original poster claims that FTD is bleeding her dry, but the truth is her lack of critical business acumen is bleeding her dry. I have not seen her monthly statements, but from hearing the testimony, she is losing all of her filling comission payments to punitive fees for accepting mercury orders(by default) but not filling them. FTD charges you double the value of an arrangement if you accept the order and do not deliver it.

Now take a deep breath and count backwards from 10 because I want you to get this part:

I do not propose that FTD is a huge moneymaker. I think, like I said earlier, that WSs are going the way of the dodo. The fees are going up, and filling florists will only pay so much. Also, the back end "processing fee" that OGs charge put a bad taste in the mouth of consumers. I am seeing many more people call me directly because they are old JustFlowers customers, but they are tired of getting arrangments that look nothing like what they ordered. Then when they realize my delivery fee is half their processing fee they are ecstatic. Without OGs, the WS have no allure for 95% of the shops.

This year I will be leaving all wire services because most of my WS orders come from online purchases. The customers get overcharged and have unreasonable expectations because of dishonest photos and selections of 200+ unique arrangements. This is not honest marketing, and is hurting my reputation in the long run.

We are ALWAYS thrilled when a shop owner like yourself tells it like it is, and because you are "new", I think I'd like to bring you up to speed about how many clashes we've had here, over the years, over a useless "topic" like wire services!!...I started laughing, actually about your suggestion, that the forum should be re-named...that was VERY well presented!!
And YES, you ARE correct about part of what you've said, but, IF you follow BACK along this thread(or maybe another), several more "newbies" jumped in, beaching about the insatiable appetite of a/any wire service fines, and overheads, that obviously ARE of their own DOING!!
We've ALL taken a deep breath, many times, MANY MANY times, and just wanted to make sure we were dealing with the owner operator of your shop, as we've ALSO had many impostors trying to "divide" the membership on this site!!
I think you're a "breath" of fresh air, but, I think you've come to realize that your statement "I do not propose that FTD is a huge moneymaker", sets off alarm bells each and every time!!

 

[BOSS]

It seems to me that every time someone mentions a WS a handful of the members on this forum see RED and more or less copy and paste the same refrain.

I never have figured out how to copy and paste, so everything I put out there is original...

Jamie, the topic of wire services is perhaps the hottest topic in the industry, and our community is no different. FlowerChat adds many new members every week, and is growing steadily, thus sometimes topics need to be revisited often for those new to the forums and those new to the industry, or those old timers like myself who's eyes have finally been opened to the realities of today's floral game.

Wire services can work for a shop, but today, I would say they only work for those doing better than $600K+ or if your getting the single member town rate of $29.95/mo with no technology. For some of us (me) it's all about the deception they foster, encourage and depend on to make the sale that put the nail in the cofin, ethics are more important than dollars...

Stick around, I'm sure you'll enjoy the fireworks from time to time...

 

[anytimeflowers]

Hi Jamie,

I first want to say welcome to the zoo, I'm glad to see you posting.

Many new free members come in and spew vitriol or, even worse, give a story such as Meish did. You'd better believe I saw red. But not in the way you imply.

I think you misunderstand a couple of her problems. She is not "missing orders" as in not filling them, she's "missing orders" the same as we all are, to the og. She is getting punitive fees because she is getting charged for services she disputes, such as double listings. When she refuses to pay for those double listings, she gets hammered with late fees. That being said, there are certainly more issues than just FTD.

As Boss suggested, and as you probably know, the floral industry is ever changing. Had this forum existed 20 years ago, the wire services thread would have a completely different theme to it. Everybody would be debating which services were the best to join.

I do hope you realize that there is a lot more going on in this forum than what you are seeing as a free member, it isn't just about wire services. I am very glad to have your opinions, it's extremely refreshing to see a slightly different take on the issue.

 

[MEISH]

I think it is more important to read the entire post, and respond with helpful advice specific to the questions being asked. The Wire Services forum should be renamed the Quit Wire Services Now forum unless we start to bring a little objectivity to our responses.

The original poster claims that FTD is bleeding her dry, but the truth is her lack of critical business acumen is bleeding her dry. I have not seen her monthly statements, but from hearing the testimony, she is losing all of her filling comission payments to punitive fees for accepting mercury orders(by default) but not filling them. FTD charges you double the value of an arrangement if you accept the order and do not deliver it.

ok...so I'm the original poster and I have never been charged twice for not filling an order... I don't know where you got that impression from. I am currently filling orders because I missed the deadline to cancel. I posted on here to see if anyone had a similar situation and gotten a satisfactory resolution from FTD.

this is the problem: The orders they send me don't cover the fees, for a really long time. I am buying flowers and filling orders and not getting anyting. I think they should be like " oh, that's awful... i understand how you would be upset.... let's go over your statement to see if there is anything we can do to make FTD profitable for YOU"
instead they are like " we don't care, buy more of our products then you'll get more orders"

Originally I was thinking that someone here would have the name of someone at FTD who would care and who could help my situation... that's all

I can't beleive people are still posting to this. OH MY, what have I started. Everyone has a different perception of what the heck I was writing about in the first place.

Thank you to everyone who has been helping me. I'm sorry I have been busy I haven't had time to check in a while.

 

[BOSS]

Originally I was thinking that someone here would have the name of someone at FTD who would care and who could help my situation... that's all

The problem is, there is no one at FTD that cares (except Charlesetta). The only thing they care about is keeping florists tied to the mother ship, selling them stuff, and taking their money.<period

FTD is NOT any florists friend. Understandably they are out to make money, they have stockholders to keep happy. However they are, IMO doing it unethically.

Again, IMO the best course of action is to get out as soon as possible, and any way you can.

 

[Rhonda]

I'm sure that we've all stated this time and time again also but if someone feels they "need" to be a member of a wire service, consider the following:
Basic listings.. don't pay for all the little areas you service.
Ads.... don't let the reps say "I'll give you a red ad for 6 mos for free".... then YOU have to remember to cancel that ad before it starts charging you...
Just Say No.... undervalued orders, over the top flower orders, any NON real flower shop (online shops, OGs, etc get a list at floristdetective.com to help) and tell even headquarters orders (could be "cloaked" order gatherer orders).. Designer's Choice only, I will not order bunches of flowers for 2 stems of anything...
Make sure to confirm delivery if you have mercury... takes $0.50 off (could be more) each incoming charge
If you're a small shop and don't want to pay into them each month (some say that is making money)... keep a log of in/out orders... weigh in your monthly/service charges and call out with a credit card after ... or as I do if the customer is willing.. offer a phone number or two of shops you would possibly use. Google shops, see if they show their own work or cookie cutter FSN/TF/FTD/800 websites...
Do not pay SAF dues through the WS.... Refuse to pay for FTD "University" or other stupid fees for something you do not ever use..
Do not run your credit cards through them... find a local bank and get direct deposit (usually within 36-48 hours)..
And yes, if you're small town you can negotiate the monthly charges.. DO So... Or if there is no other FTD shop in your area...
And if/when you do lose all WS, they will send you orders and you are in charge.. 100% on a credit card .... Disclaimer: will probably not work in an urban/city setting... That's my 2 cents.... (actual worth $0.00)

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

I need to start anther thread in this section......

 

[dale911]

It is technically profitable, but ......

Whereas, the wedding analogy is really a poor example because it is a VERY bad idea to pay for labor to fill WS orders. WS orders pay 73% minus fees. If you run a 30% CoGS and have to pay extra labor, there is nothing left over. However, if you want to pay me $730.00 for a $1000.00 wedding order that I can do myself, I will actually jump on that if I don't have my own wedding booked AND as long as you do the marketing, consultation, sales and pay the taxes on it. I'll put $430.00 dollars in my pocket for one day's work.

How could you not pay labor to create the wire-ins? Are you talking about doing them yourself? Do you not pay yourself? That's the worst math equation I've ever heard. I'm running 10-15% profit overall on my business plan. If I get 73% of the order value, I just lost 12% on a good day and 17% on a bad day before I even get started. I am already out of TF and I stayed with FTD through Vday because they talked me into it. I'm putting in my quitting papers tomorrow, or else I might be out of the flower business altogether if I keep taking orders that I lose money on before I get it in the computer.