FTD vs. ProFlowers

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12BucksFor2Dozon said:
...remember rule #1 in marketing "there is almost NO such thing as bad publicity"

Hmmm...really...OK - Tell that to Merck...

12BucksFor2Dozon said:
Those of us not "blessed" with a kissy-kissy relationship with the wires see ALL of it as threats...perhaps you don't care to understand that because, hey, FTD is paying *your* bills, but to me and others who struggle to recapture the local order business, this is at the forefront of my concern.

Our relationship is like ANY professional florist - I use them for what I need them for. Just because I know how to make a w/s work for ME doesn't give me a "kissy-kissy" relationship with them...

12BucksFor2Dozon said:
Maybe it's time to start my own phpBB, where only REAL "Real Florists" (those who have NO wire affiliations at all) can go to discuss how to whip ALL of ya...<roar!> <chuckle>[/font]

Go ahead...what's stopping you - see ya!

- H.
 
I hear what you are saying, and if BFB is pulling the same crap-o-la, then FTD top Brass will have to answer to it.

First of all - let me straighten you out on a couple things - I am NOOO FTD 'robot' - SEVERAL on this board can attest to that.
Second, my family & I run a 4th generation, 97 year old biz - *IT* comes first. I choose FTD as a wire service because they CURRENTLY provide me with some of the tools I need to run the biz, at a price I believe is right, and it was ME who chose those tools. Yea, there are some florists out there who bleed the black and gold, reading FTD P/R with blinders on and do not read b/t the lines. You opinion is valid - FTD *may* indeed have other motives for suing PF, then again, you may be wrong.

If BFB is doing what you are charging, then why would FTD take the risk in suing PF for something that they are doing themselves? Do you honestly think they are that short sighted?
If yes, then we should see the whole thing fade away.
If not, then we should see something GOOD happen for the consumer.

Anyway you want to look at is FINE with me. Just don't fault me for taking my point of view, and trying to calm the "FTD haters of the world"...

- H.

PS - keep your politics out of FLORIST related discussions, would ya'???
 
listen I'm not looking to get into a flame war here...Merck was killing its customers i think that goes under the heading of "almost no such thing" but hey, relax it's all good.

consider yours the last word on the subject, and BTW I never "fault" anyone for their POV...i just like a little honest debate now and then.

Peace, bro...
 
Hey Philly ON A LIGHTER SIDE:
I do happen to bleed black and gold. In fact I own a black Lab and a Golden retriever. Of course the black and gold that I refer to is the one and only and the original...... GO STEELERS! Course I also have Blue and White in my veins as well...WE ARE!!!
 
Even though I predicted on the other board that 29,990 out of 30,000 or so florists would be too stupid and too clueless and too narrow minded to see and recognize an opportunity to advance what should be their own agenda, I'm still totally and completely amazed.

I'm amazed that anybody is idiot enough to think that by jumping on the backs of FTD and their big bucks and power and making enough noise to do some damage to Pro Flowers you'd be "supporting" the big FTD enemy. Some of you people on this board and in this business are probably stupid enough to believe that you shouldn't be making money in this business just because that is what FTD wants to do. And making money has just GOT TO BE BAD if FTD DOES IT ! ! !

Don't laugh. That idiotic rational makes every bit as much sense as some of what I've seen in previous posts on this string.

I've openly stated my belief that Pro Flowers, their clones, and the Big Boxes in our local markets are just about to put most of the remaining Retail Florists completely out of existence. This development, if anybody had the brains to take advantage of it and MAKE SOME NOISE, could just possibly change that large looming inevitability just a little bit. It possibly could, that is, and as I said, IF ANYBODY HAD THE BRAINS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT ! ! !

But, alas, it probably won't. Because the small thinking idiots who seem to make up all too much of this industry would rather in-fight over whether or not to be in a wire service or which wire service to be in or or who is in league with a wire service they don't like or whether or not you should and could pursue any end result that might require you to temporarily share agendas with someone like FTD that they and/or you don't like.

As has been said elsewhere, I know there are a lot of mentally disadvantaged people in the world. I just don't understand why such a huge and disproportionate number of them seem to have turned up in this business.
 
If BFB is doing what you are charging, then why would FTD take the risk in suing PF for something that they are doing themselves? Do you honestly think they are that short sighted?

This is the truth: Because FTD knows that if PF sues BFB for doing it too, PF doesn't have a mercury network to let ALL of their florists the truth. In general florists are in the dark, and believe what they hear "mercury network".

I don't fault florists who have FTD, only those who don't have an exit plan of FTD.

GO STEELERS!

WoooHooooo, Go Steelers!!!!
 
Dazeal said:
This is the truth: Because FTD knows that if PF sues BFB for doing it too, PF doesn't have a mercury network to let ALL of their florists the truth. In general florists are in the dark, and believe what they hear "mercury network".

I don't fault florists who have FTD, only those who don't have an exit plan of FTD.



WoooHooooo, Go Steelers!!!!

WHO FREAKING CARES ? ? ?

It's irrelevant to the REAL ISSUE of this string ! ! !

FTD, regardless of their possible motives and agendas, has almost certainly created an opportunity for REAL RETAIL FLORISTS here, whether that was or wasn't their intent. And it, admittedly, almost certainly wasn't their intent. But, regardless, the opportunity has been created and it exists.

The only remaining question is whether we'll be smart enough to take advantage of it and run with it or will be be dumb enough to let it go while we argue among ourselves over irrelevant crap?
 
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Fellas,

This last part of the thread reminds me of the frenzy that surrounded the AP article back in Feb. Rather than seeing the feature as an opportunity to further expose the public to the theft, fraud and deception, we florists spent much of the time worrying about whether the story was 'bad for the industry.'

Guess what? What's been happening with the theft, fraud and deception is far worse.

This kind of quibbling takes everyone's eye off the ball. Who cares 'why' FTD sued -they've got the resources to do it. Let 'em. They have their own problems and the likelyhood that the ProFlowers team will counter-attack with all the cr*p FTD's affiliates have been up to - is great.

Neither of these teams is dummies and both have deep pockets. In the end, I hope the message from the judge will be 'You ALL better clean it up.'

Oh, and What's a Nittany? Go Mountaineers!
 
CHR said:
Fellas,

This last part of the thread reminds me of the frenzy that surrounded the AP article back in Feb. Rather than seeing the feature as an opportunity to further expose the public to the theft, fraud and deception, we florists spent much of the time worrying about whether the story was 'bad for the industry.'

Guess what? What's been happening with the theft, fraud and deception is far worse.

Is it? There's a couple few big skumbags that are around no longer. Hey it's progress far from perfection
No I am not rah-rahing ftd tho I am glad they are doing this, I think.
 
12BucksFor2Dozon said:
listen I'm not looking to get into a flame war here...Merck was killing its customers ...

No they were not.

Reference, I believe, Tuesdays WSJ.

The jurors were too stupid to understand Merck's lawyers during the trial
 
CHR said:
Guess what? What's been happening with the theft, fraud and deception is far worse.

I concur whole heartedly...UNLESS the Real FLorists take a stand, carry the ball, and continue to bring preassure, in a few short years this industry will be but a shell of it's current self. Today's "floral" industry is nothing compared to what it once was.

Many will say it's the Big Boxes, many will clain the Wire Services did it... I've got news for you, WE DID IT...WE ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN and WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR CLEANING IT UP because unless we work to that end, nobody else will.

The wire services had their chance, they chose to look the other way in the name of corperate profits, gathered off the backs of the Real Florists, and the way the game has evolved. Yes they have made some moves to remove a few of the dregs, but unless we keep the preasure on they too will fall back to their old ways.

IMHO it's d*mn time to stop worrying about what it will do to me, what it will cost me, because unless we take on this monster, and I mean today, tomorrow there most likely will be nothing to take back in the consumers eye's. Sure there will be those that will always survive, I am not worried about that myself, but I am worried for you, and the guy down the street that does not have generations of experience, that does not have a clue as to what is really going on.

And the more important part for me, is the fact that I feel like a turd thinking that I am part of this industry, that refuses to police itself. I do not decieve my customers, employees, friends or family. Why is it OK to allow this to continue?

FTD suing ProFlowers *may* open the flood gates, it may be the very thing necessary to clean this mess up, it may lead to some rather tough times for the industry, but I also believe that in the long run it will lead to a healthier, more stable, more honest, and more profitable industry. The numbers I have say that 1 in 5 orders belongs to a Real Florist...d*mn it, I want it to be 4 in 5, hell I want it all...don't you?

Real Florists...UNITE....we do have the power to fix this mess, perhaps even more so than FTD does in the long run, but unless we take a stand, expose the theft, I consider it graft (only with a new mob that does not use guns), I won't be able to look myself in the mirror...

Will you?
 
BOSS said:
UNLESS the Real FLorists take a stand, carry the ball, and continue to bring preassure, in a few short years this industry will be but a shell of it's current self.
will.
Real Florists...UNITE....we do have the power to fix this mess, perhaps even more so than FTD does in the long run, but unless we take a stand, expose the theft, I consider it graft (only with a new mob that does not use guns), I won't be able to look myself in the mirror...
Will you?

I agree with much of what you say....but then again, we have all said this in one way or another for the past three years on this board or the other and yet, here we are again, talking about Uniting...How do you propose to do that? And as far as FTD....say what you want....question their motives all you want...but they do seem to be taking a stand.They have shut some major hitters down, they have asked to have any skimming issues brought to them and they will do something about it.Has anyone reported a single case? I did today.I will let you know what happens with it....but when you look at the amount of florists on this board....and granted it has grown....but compare it to the amount that have not joined in.,you have to ask why aren't there 1000's of members ? I have had it as a something about flowerchat on my merc message tag line on every order that we send out since I joined...think anyone reads it...haven't a clue. Should we all toss a 100 bucks in the kitty and take out an ad in one of the rags that we all read.I'm game. Last month I asked about all of us contributing money to do a marketing plan or an ad or forming an association......it did not get much response except for the same chat about "what use to be". Recently Rob posted a well spoken post.......given that post, what are we as a unit going to do? Will we step up to the plate or will we continue to rag on and on about the WS's, what it use to be, how we use to do it etc etc....Is anyone as tired of the same thing as I am. Just recently Art formed a marketing group of his web users and they all met and did a marketing brain storm.Out of that came catalogs, customer questionaires, flyers and lord knows what else. Action....so what will we do with all of the bright folks on this board, certainly we could be doing something similiar...WHAT ARE WE WAiTING FOR?????
Rants I know.Watching the hurricane take straight aim at us....less than 24 hour notice and here I am..what does that say about me.....never mind...I know.....crazy old woman...that's me.
Oh and it's Go Canes for those of you that need clarification! Duh....nittney smitney!
 
OK, Let's get specific.

hcflorist said:
I've openly stated my belief that Pro Flowers, their clones, and the Big Boxes in our local markets are just about to put most of the remaining Retail Florists completely out of existence. This development, if anybody had the brains to take advantage of it and MAKE SOME NOISE, could just possibly change that large looming inevitability just a little bit. It possibly could, that is, and as I said, IF ANYBODY HAD THE BRAINS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT ! ! !

OK. Charlie, how do we take advantage of it? I agree with you and BOSS and several others here, but just how do we take advantage of it?

FTD's sue seems to be based on questionable advertising terms. Yet they are all guilty of it. This includes McCann and 1-800 unless you haven't heard his latest radio ad with 1-800 have the frestest flowers directly from the grower and the best designers in the world working for 1-800. All of these guys are using the same script and all are basing their sales on having the freshest flowers. Let's face it. We all have flowers that come directly from the grower - some just more directly than others. Are consumers really going to care about freshness on is it the low price of flowers in a box that has become important. Is the future of this industry becoming a split between "do it yourself" flowers in a box next day versus flowers assembled and delivered today.

Now is the time to express your views. How do we stop the insanity??
 
Sher said:
Uniting...How do you propose to do that?

Well...since you asked.... RealFlorist.com will soon see the light of day...I'm currently in discussions with Importer/Growers and Wholesalers, other florists (of course) as well as industry consultants and so on...it will be a place to bring all the parts of the industry together... not like FlowerChat, although there will be a link, stay tuned...

As to Art's gig...yes he does a great job at marketing...here too tho...were trying too, for the "regular" Real Florists.... www.flowershopmarketing.com check it out...
 
I think part of my rant is that there is power in numbers and that as a group we certainly can do what Art's group is doing....Jhenry loves large orders......let's start with a catalog.Do the numbers....and I am not a Griff so allow me some mathematical license here please....If it costs me 2.00 per each for me to do a 18 page catalog.....and these are not real numbers.....can you imagine what it would cost if 45 of us did a printing run.....probably 18 cents each. If we all did 5000 post cards and I do that in my small shop(they are cards for brides and they last me a year)....but 5000 of them cost me 283.00 bucks....if we all did a run they would cost about 3 cents each.This is what I am saying. Talking our heads off is great.....but action is what is needed...we have to compete.....we have to promote...we have to file away what it use to be and move forward...we have to saturate our cities with our information, we have to make the answer "yes" to our customers....if we do not make ourselves indispensable then we might a well give our clients to the Others.....if you are a ws member then use them as you would any other vendor and demand of it what you would of any other vendor....if you think someone is skimming, turn them in to the ws...keep it up....it takes a minute of your time...enough complaints and they have to do something.If you do get complaints from any order from an OG and they do manage to slip by sometimes, then have your education spiel at hand and talk to the customer....and encourage them to get their money back..then report the OG as well! ...
And as to flowerchat or realflorist.com...everyone should donate some bucks and have Mark or Ryan put an ad in a major floral magazine....get the word out....talk it up, make a tag line on your wire outs....but DO SOMETHING!
 
Griff said:
OK. Charlie, how do we take advantage of it?

Well, I've already posted my opinion on what we should do on this immediate issue today. But since you missed it, I'll do it again.

1. Copy the FTD letter and press release from this board, Floristboard, or any number of places on the Internet and make sure that every newspaper, radio station, and tv station in your market area is given a copy of it. HAND DELIVER it if necessary. Add your views from your FLORIST prespective on the subject. And make sure it gets printed and broadcast in your area. Do NOT take "no" for an answer. These people come to you and ask for your advertising dollars. They owe you their support in exposing the frauds of this industry and their resulting legal problems. They also owe their listening, viewing, and reading public the right to learn about these frauds through their resources.

If you're in a small town with small town media, you just might be able to get invited to an interview, either in your shop or at the radio/tv station. The festering and growing situation that caused this lawsuit is certainly the fodder for local public interest shows and columns. Offer to write an article yourself for the paper.

2. Write, call, e-mail or whatever the U.S. Justice Department and your State Attorney General. Send them a copy of the press release covering this lawsuit. And then ask them, point blank, why in the H--- they haven't been doing the jobs they're paid to do by enforcing the laws that are already on the books to prevent this kind of fraud, deception, and unfair business practices. CC each and every one of your inquiry letters, e-mails, etc. that you send them to each and every newspaper, radio station, and tv station that serves your area. And make sure they know you did that. Invite the news media to contact the Justice Department and the State Attorney General and ask them the same questions. NOTHING GETS A BUREAUCRAT TO WIGGLING LIKE CALLS FROM THE NEWS MEDIA ! ! !

3. Write, call, AND e-mail your state's U.S. congressiional representatives, U,S, Senators, and your state government elected representatives. What are you going to talk to them about? Use your imagination and SEE #2! Ask THEM why in the H--- THEY haven't been doing their job by seeing that the bureaucrats that work for them on the state and federal levels do THEIR jobs and enforce the laws that are already on the books to ensure fair business practices, prevent false and fraudulent advertising, and prevent the public from being defrauded by scams being broadcast OVER THE PUBLIC AIRWAYS by the nation's talk show hosts. Ask them why they've allowed the FCC to turn the nation's airways into an interstate highway for liars, thieves, and scam artists. And don't mushy mouth around. Plain talk while sounding mad as H--- and letting them know that you're talking to every news hound that will listen works best with politicians. If you're effective in your presentation, you can bet that the s--- will soon start flowing DOWNHILL.

Tell your Congressional reps and Senators that you want the Justice Department to get involved in or take a look at the FTD/Pro lawsuit and get you and the rest of the nation's florists in it as plaintiffs or co-complainants. This thing seems to have the makings of a class action. And since Justice has sat on their duffs through many many complaints about this outfit, now that something IS being done, they need to get off their duffs and start representing the thousands of small business florists who have also been injured by the false claims of Pro Flowers and others like them before they start to look just plain silly. Make it plain to your Rep that this is exactly what you want to see and that you want to see it NOW ! ! !

4. And I almost forgot the FCC. You call them, write them, and e-mail them. You should know what to say by now. Ask them why they haven't been doing their job by protecting the public interest from the scams that have taken over the nation's talk radio shows on the nation's public airways. And let THEM know that you're posing the same question to your news media outlets AND your STATE and FEDERAL representatives. Tell 'em to expect calls from your news media AND your representatives. Like I said, NOTHING gets bureaucrats to wiggling like phone calls from people that they spend the day hoping to NEVER hear from.

5. Talk to EVERY florist you know or contact during the day. Make them aware of what is going on and the need for them to get involved. Make sure that they understand that their involvement is for THEIR benefit and THEIR future and not about whether or not FTD is involved or what FTD's agenda is.

How's that for a start, Griff? Think you can get started on this first thing tomorrow am? I've been working on it much of today. I've gotten some favorable responses so far. I'm hoping to stir enough ruckus up tomorrow to start seeing this showing up in the media locally this week. We'll see.

Griff said:
FTD's sue seems to be . . . . . . .
Now is the time to express your views. How do we stop the insanity??

You are probably right about the others, of course. But that's COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the point I'm making. The point is that the FTD lawsuit, regardless of their motive or agenda, IS an opportunity to get this problem in front of elected representatives, news media, and the public. If we leave this particular issue to Pro Flowers and FTD to work out, it will probably just quietly be worked out in offices between lawyers with maybe a little blip on the stock pages. But if we make enough noise and if we can manage to get America's florists involved in a lawsuit seeking damages for false and misleading advertising from Pro Flowers, even if we don't get any money out of it, that's a victory. The ultimate goals, of course, would be to cost them as much money as possible, hurt their marketing effort as much as possible, stop their false advertising, and maybe, if possible, put them completely out business.

How much can we accomplish? Just depends on how much NOISE we make. Our politicians are all unashamedly bought and paid for by special interests. If Pro Flowers is actually guilty of all of the unlawful activity alleged by this lawsuit and others, it's reasonable to assume that Pro Flowers has signed on to what has become the American Way and owns the loyalty of the Right Politician(s). What else would have kept the federal and state regulators from even looking into these issues, as rampant as they have become and as many complaints as have been filed?

You know what state they're based in and what countries they're dealing with. Do you think it's possible that they were smart enough to learn from the alleged Wal-Mart/Chinese Communist marriage and consequent purchase of the U.S. Government and make some of the same types of mutually beneficial arrangements with our "bought and paid for" politicians using the help (and money) of their friendly foreign government connections? Well, if you don't see this as feasible, possible, or likely, maybe you'd better forget this issue. Cause you just can't solve a problem that is so big that you don't begin to understand it.

Now, given the above, if it has any merit . . . or even if it doesn't have any merit, we florists don't have a chance of going against Pro Flowers in a civil action. If you don't know by now that the Justice System is completely and totally about who can afford to out-lawyer whom, I'm not going to try to explain it to you. Point is . . . WE CANNOT DO IT.

But, since FTD does have the bucks to at least get this in court, 30,000 or so very angry florists certainly do HAVE THE POWER TO STIR UP A RAUNCHY SMELL THAT IS NOTHING AKIN TO FLOWERS. How do we do that? By doing what I have outlined above and then doing everything in your power to see that every other florist you know does the same thing. Our POWER is strictly tied to how much NOISE we can make. If we can make enough NOISE to cause politicians, bureaucrats, and judges alike to feel compelled, for the sake of their own political survival, to start doing the jobs that they've likely been well paid to ignore, then we'll have accomplished something. But it's going to take a bunch of us who are willing to loudly and prominently make a LOT OF NOISE to do it.

Like I said before, I fully expect that 29,990 out of 30,000 or so florists would just as soon be stupid and lazy enough to sit back and depend on somebody else to make their livings by either sending them wire orders or filling wire orders for them while they watch their industry die before their eyes. They will NOT jump on this opportunity and use it for the means of retail floral salvation that it may have the potential to be. So far, according to my informal poll on both boards, I'd say my count was wrong. Looks like it's more like 29,996 instead of 29,990. Question is, where do YOU stand and what are YOU going to DO ? ? ?

That enough to get you started? You asked for it. Don't be rattling my beehive unless you can stand my bee stings. NOW, STOP DEBATING ALL THE IRRELEVANT CRAP AND GO DO SOMETHING ! ! ! TIME'S A-WASTING ! ! !
 
Sher said:
And as far as FTD....say what you want....question their motives all you want...but they do seem to be taking a stand.They have shut some major hitters down, they have asked to have any skimming issues brought to them and they will do something about it.Has anyone reported a single case?
Yes. Many. For years.

Should we all toss a 100 bucks in the kitty and take out an ad in one of the rags that we all read.
I'm in. Where do I send the check?

In all seriousness, can you name me ten members here that could agree on a single catalog? Some would have to have WS arrangements, some would pass if any were included; some want bread and butter designs, some want artsy and prestigious; some want low end and some want significantly higher prices. It could work but I'd want to see some cash on the table from enough participants to make it a workable group - not just an I might just sorta maybe if I like it commitment. All those printed materials take time and lots of it. Art is making money from his products so he has plenty of incentive. (And good for him.) A volunteer venture is much more risky.

Watching the hurricane take straight aim at us....less than 24 hour notice and here I am..
Stay safe and keep us posted.

nittney smitney!
Those Penn State guys don't take kindly to taunting. ;)

BTW, hcflorist was posting as I wrote this. I totally agree with his ideas of follow-up - and lots of it. If this opportunity slips through our hands, we are the ones to blame.

HC - can you generate a few compaint 'form letters' that florists can use as a springboard?
 
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Griff said:
Is the future of this industry becoming a split between "do it yourself" flowers in a box next day versus flowers assembled and delivered today.

The "future" of this industry obviously has pretty much nothing to do with whether flowers come assembled or in a box. The future of this industry has absolutely nothing to do with the "quality" or "service" that too many florists mistakenly feel gives them an edge which will enable them to prevail over the big boxes and direct shippers. The future of this industry has nothing to do with "niche marketing" which other florists feel will allow them to prevail against the direct shippers and big boxes.

The future of this industry, quite obviously, unless things change soon, has EVERYTHING to do with BIG BUCKS, DEEP POCKETS and the right "bought and paid for" POLITICAL CONNECTIONS. BIG BUSINESS is rapidly taking over this industry. If you don't see that, you're wearing blinders.

Big bucks, the ability to monopolize the best supplies, the ability to ADVERTISE EVERYONE ELSE INTO OBLIVION, and the ability to "buy" the political and legal system so that they can safely "wink" at the law as they go about their business makes the members of the BIG BUSINESSES that are rapidly taking over this industry perfect examples of and poster boys for the sad state of affairs that have almost completely taken over this country's business base. And it's all happened while we all comfortably "snoozed" in our somewhat questionable senses of "greatness" and "immortality".

Can we do anything about saving this industry? I doubt it. We don't seem to be able to even drum up any enthusiasm for slowing down Pro Flowers when we apparently have the opportunity to join in doing so at little or no monetary cost to us. And they're one of our biggest threats.

We'd rather spend our time in-fighting over wire service wars as if we thought that was a team sport, or something. The rest of the time we all seem to be most concerned about "ME". So just what makes you think we can get enough florists to see the light and agree on anything for the good of the industry long enough to unite effectively enough to fight a threat from anything bigger than your corner convenience store?

But, so long as a few of us are willing, we can try. Boss and Sher had some ideas for the future. I've advanced some ideas for the "now". And, like Boss, the result is not going to affect me and my plans for the future very much. I SHOULD care less. But I, too, worry about others who NEED a future in this industry. So what do you think? You wanna try or watch it die?
 
CHR said:
HC - can you generate a few compaint 'form letters' that florists can use as a springboard?

Might be able to if I thought anybody would use 'em. How many copies do ya reckon we'd need? Should I print 3 or do ya think 2 would be enough?

Seriously, if I see any response and a need for it, be glad to work on it.
 
I agree with Sher and what she stated above. I not been as active on this board in last couple of months as I had been because we appear to be going no where here. I have long preached we need to come together in a marketing/ buying group. Boss you are starting a marketing group but it belongs inside of an association. We need to become less splintered.

As for the old days they are just memories everyone the old ftd group was a very broken program by the time they sold. You can cherish the memories but its time to move on and create new and better ones.

There are marketing groups out there like mid west group and Arts group I do not know who the people are that head these groups but I am sure some of you in here do. There needs to be a merger of all of these groups .

There will be a cost to such an association but there will be a far bigger cost to continue to try and fight alone.
 
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