How would you explain the importance of depth?
- Thread starter shannonlovesflowers
- Start date
- Status
Johan
New Member
- Oct 20, 2008
- 854
- 764
- 0
- State / Prov
- West Yorkshire
Get them to make a display and to price it, itemise every last stem. You will probably find that they are under estimating how much they use aswell. To much foliage etc. Use the same items as them and you make a design same shape etc. I bet yours is quite abit bigger. Then work out how much money they are over spending by on that piece and then give them the truth. They carry on like they are, they won't have a job as they will bankrupt the business.
Also look at the height of work benchs too. It sounds stupid but if they are working at the wrong height it will make a difference in the preception they have of their own work.
Also look at the height of work benchs too. It sounds stupid but if they are working at the wrong height it will make a difference in the preception they have of their own work.
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
Back when I was a kid, I used to listen to my dad, correct the designers on this very topic.
I also used to have to listen to my dad everytime he corrected me as well.
Many times it wasn't very diplomatic, but his instructions were clear.
If the designers did as they were told, everything was fine, however, if they ignored the instructions they would be told again in a more forceful way.
I hated the corrections, the staff hated the corrections, but it made us a better business.
Today, I find myself not caring what the staff thinks as long as they respect the instructions.
If this is your job, make it crystal clear by showing them how adding depth to the arrangements enhance the arrangements.
Always give a reason for your suggestion.
Joe
I also used to have to listen to my dad everytime he corrected me as well.
Many times it wasn't very diplomatic, but his instructions were clear.
If the designers did as they were told, everything was fine, however, if they ignored the instructions they would be told again in a more forceful way.
I hated the corrections, the staff hated the corrections, but it made us a better business.
Today, I find myself not caring what the staff thinks as long as they respect the instructions.
If this is your job, make it crystal clear by showing them how adding depth to the arrangements enhance the arrangements.
Always give a reason for your suggestion.
Joe
lori042499
Well-Known Member
- May 3, 2006
- 6,457
- 4,226
- 113
- 53
- State / Prov
- MA
I would say that the worst scenario for any designer is to have something that you have made and worked on belittled, torn apart before your eyes and basically thrown away. You may as well be doing it to them personally...
That being said flat designs need to go....I think you may be recieved better when working on specific designs that are learning designs, working side by side for say cooler arrangements...learn by copying and seeing the difference in a flat design and one with depth...learn by showing...
If you take the same components and work side by side with each designer and let them make theirs and you make yours they will have no choice but to see the difference in yours and want to learn why yours looks better. this would be your opportunity to tweak theirs with their permission once the lines of communication are open and acepting...Give them the will to learn and they will be more accepting of the constructive crit...Nothing worse than being rushed on a busy day with deadlines and someone flying in from the other room and ripping your design from out of nowhere when you thought you were just persorming business as usual..
In my early years, I had an employer watch me make 19 centerpieces wrong and tell me after the 19th one was in the cooler at 10pm on a friday night...I was 19 years old and told him to f off and redo them himself..I had worked a 12 hour day and that just wasn't the way to do it...I can comiserate still with designers who are doing an OK job but it just isn't the way a manager wants it....you just have to remember that this is the way they are used to doing it and it was OK with their last employer now it is not and they may have issue with it...and that can be worked out gingerly and firmly...just get past the ego and you will be OK.
Shannon, we all have different learning styles. Some learn by hearing, some by doing, some by seeing etc. I would think most designers would be more visual, but not necessarily.
I would work with each of them individually if you have time, not as a two-some. Make a design for them, showing depth. Then ask them to try to explain to you where the depth is. I've found alot of designers just can't visualize it.
If they aren't able to explain it to you, then you need to show them how you created depth. Then I'd just ask them to make the same arrangement as you and go from there.
You'll be fine... jenny
I would work with each of them individually if you have time, not as a two-some. Make a design for them, showing depth. Then ask them to try to explain to you where the depth is. I've found alot of designers just can't visualize it.
If they aren't able to explain it to you, then you need to show them how you created depth. Then I'd just ask them to make the same arrangement as you and go from there.
You'll be fine... jenny
yep, Lori, Had it done to me many times.
Hitomi told me she had that happen to her when she was in Japan studying Ikebana.
Yipes!
I don't want to kill their spirt.
Today, I'm trying working beside them. Instead of my office/ design room. My design room/office is seperate from theirs. I'm kinda cramping the table by being there, but that's how it goes. You know- lead by example.
It's kinda funny watching them watch me.
But they don't know I'm watching... he he
Hitomi told me she had that happen to her when she was in Japan studying Ikebana.
Yipes!
I don't want to kill their spirt.
Today, I'm trying working beside them. Instead of my office/ design room. My design room/office is seperate from theirs. I'm kinda cramping the table by being there, but that's how it goes. You know- lead by example.
It's kinda funny watching them watch me.
But they don't know I'm watching... he he
In My Experience...
I have taught a class before to designers where you take a bunch of flowers, like maybe a dz roses, some filler and some greens. I first make the most boring roundie-moundie dz rose arrangement in a vase. The I take it apart, make a rather interesting hand tied bouquet out of those same exact materials. Then take it apart and make a luxurious depth filled and inspired design in foam.
The end result is that the student designers see how the same flowers have many capabilities, but the designer must manipulate them to invent the best design. Try it like a seminar...it's worth the time to get people to think...again:headbang:
I have taught a class before to designers where you take a bunch of flowers, like maybe a dz roses, some filler and some greens. I first make the most boring roundie-moundie dz rose arrangement in a vase. The I take it apart, make a rather interesting hand tied bouquet out of those same exact materials. Then take it apart and make a luxurious depth filled and inspired design in foam.
The end result is that the student designers see how the same flowers have many capabilities, but the designer must manipulate them to invent the best design. Try it like a seminar...it's worth the time to get people to think...again:headbang:
Palms
Well-Known Member
I think this thread has opened up some great points but wonder if anyone knows how you really would explain the reason for needing depth in a design?? It has really got me thinking and i hate when i cannot think of an answer that makes sense.. Would you say for visual interest?
a real reason
I think the real reason is to create the illusion that the flowers are natrually there...not contrived.. The best designers in the world create designs that are so perfectly executed because they dont look designed.
Thoughts?
I think the real reason is to create the illusion that the flowers are natrually there...not contrived.. The best designers in the world create designs that are so perfectly executed because they dont look designed.
Thoughts?
I disagree... it is the design managers job, but at some point the designers need to be aware that the owner feels as strongly as you that their designs are extremely overstuffed and lacking depth. Many owners are not even designers - it is your job Shannon. The owner has other duties that do not include educating and policing the designers. That said... if the owner does design, it will help YOU out for her to occasionally correct them on these same issues, so you don't look like the design nazi.
From all you've posted in this thread shannon, if you say it like you have typed, you are not insulting in any way. If they do get insulted, then I don't think they are a designer you would want long term. They need to accept criticism and be willing to design differently from shop to shop depending on their bosses or shop's look.
I don't quite agree with MFT. i think flowers should be designed either to create an illusion of being naturally there (and this way an arrangement is a sort of an anthem to the nature), or......vice versa - to be a part of something that looks very constucted, man-made. extremities?? - yes. but that's what make for me a good design, when you see a clear intentions of designer. that's why i thinf sometimes "roundy-moundys" with rich texture and depth appeal more to me than a weird arrangement with a piece of ting ting and a loop of aspidestra leaf, pretending to be "different" or upscale, and having nothing but weird (or even tacky) look to it.
being a fan of those two extreme types of design is a reason why i don't like so much fan-shaped mashes no matter how well executed they are.
and when it comes to depth in arrangement...... i just think that it's serves to think about design and to view it more as a three-dimensinal object that creates it's own space
being a fan of those two extreme types of design is a reason why i don't like so much fan-shaped mashes no matter how well executed they are.
and when it comes to depth in arrangement...... i just think that it's serves to think about design and to view it more as a three-dimensinal object that creates it's own space
The best advise that I recieved, as a rookie designer, in my first design room job was from a veteran florist. She told me that the flowers should "visually take you on a trip in and out of an arrangement." There is a lot to be said about the value of "negative space in a flower design.
Shannon, I think you are struggling more with how to descibe the need for depth, in a design (it's Value) vs. just showing them depth in your designs. But that does not mean that long time customers will see the Value of it.
It is a matter of taste. Peopple are resistant to change. But a good designer is always willing to learn and improve their style. It does not mean people will accept the "new style".
Sounds like you have your work cut out for you.
Good Luck ,
Dave
Kayta, I just love you!! that is brilliant!! I want to sit and drink coffee or tea, or whatever with you someday!
Dave, I don't want to change their style, just polish it. And yes, I think customers will notice!
thank you, Shannon! we have at least two passions in common-flower design and.....Hitomi!!!!! i'd love to meet you in person one day!
and back to depth.........i will never forget how one of my professors explained us how painting is different from sculpture - painting creates an ILLUSION of space where sculpture creates the actual SPACE....... so......coming from this statement depth as a formal element of space is on of tools that helps us to break an illusion.....
and back to depth.........i will never forget how one of my professors explained us how painting is different from sculpture - painting creates an ILLUSION of space where sculpture creates the actual SPACE....... so......coming from this statement depth as a formal element of space is on of tools that helps us to break an illusion.....
WEll I am so sorry to offend folks, on the post , I made this morning,
Ok now that I am darn well awake, Yes, If it is your job to do it, then do it, and also they came from another shop, everyone has to learn to do things that way each shops does it that way, but also here is something, else, Sorry didn't read everyone's reply, If they came from a shop that Amy took over and along came there customers, they will probably be just happy with what these folks do, SO that is also something to consider, So teach them to do it the way you like for the type that you do.
I hate to say this, but I didn't mean to offend you Shannon in any way about what I post this AM, and I am so sorry if you took it that way...
Ok now that I am darn well awake, Yes, If it is your job to do it, then do it, and also they came from another shop, everyone has to learn to do things that way each shops does it that way, but also here is something, else, Sorry didn't read everyone's reply, If they came from a shop that Amy took over and along came there customers, they will probably be just happy with what these folks do, SO that is also something to consider, So teach them to do it the way you like for the type that you do.
I hate to say this, but I didn't mean to offend you Shannon in any way about what I post this AM, and I am so sorry if you took it that way...
Queen, you are the least offensive person on the planet I think. You also have class and depth of character.
V
V
Oh heck no Queen, not one bit! I love the Queen.
And like I said, I certainly don't want to change what they do, just make it better.
One girl gets it, the other resists and takes any critique personally.
"It" meaning the ever evolution of floral design.
The girl who gets it has an art degree, I think artists who have gone to school are easier to deal with. They always tell me about how things they have done have been literally ripped apart too.
The other girl reminds me of me at her age. I learned it one way, worked at one shop, and thought I knew it all.
but then after I moved away from my comfort zone......
I got a rude awakening.
I want to gently wake her up. With whispers rather than roars.
And like I said, I certainly don't want to change what they do, just make it better.
One girl gets it, the other resists and takes any critique personally.
"It" meaning the ever evolution of floral design.
The girl who gets it has an art degree, I think artists who have gone to school are easier to deal with. They always tell me about how things they have done have been literally ripped apart too.
The other girl reminds me of me at her age. I learned it one way, worked at one shop, and thought I knew it all.
but then after I moved away from my comfort zone......
I got a rude awakening.
I want to gently wake her up. With whispers rather than roars.
- Status