IYPs not passing Page Rank

[CHR]

Fascinating article about how some Internet Yellow Pages, Directories and User Review sites are adding 'no follow' to links.

Take back your reputation from the online yellow pages

Why does this matter?

In the search engines’ eyes when a site links to another they pass part of their reputation to that site. That reputation can help the linked-to site rank well in the search engines for certain search terms, unless the linking site does not want to pass their reputation on. By adding a line of code known as “NoFollow” to the link, the linking site is preventing their reputation from being passed.

Simply put:

They are preventing their reputations from passing to you because they want to rank higher than you for searches for your business so they can sell you more traffic that you could have gotten yourself.

Emphasis mine. This is why you DO NOT want your name listed in certain directories, especially if they're only using your name as BAIT with no link to you AND your site is not doing well for its targeted keywords.

Additionally, there's discussion about Brides.com:

It’s my understanding that not only are the IYPs pulling this stunt (in order to not give away link juice) but almost every vertical directory THAT CHARGES A FEE does so also. And you know what? The BIGGER the directory, the more likely it is that that link has a condom on it.

I believe this is because the bigger directories have the best SEO staff, who know what they’re doing, and aren’t about to pass link juice to poor shmucks who are paying for their links, but wouldn’t know link juice from orange juice.

An example? Look at Brides.com. (Home page page rank is 7). Almost the first thing you see on their home page is the link at top right for “local vendors.” Click all the way through, for example, to Caterers, Connecticut. There is so much link juice on this site, it’s still a page rank 4 interior page. Now look at the listings. Are those website links to the caterers passing juice? No, it’s a total redirect. No SEO benefit at all to the small business. But everything about the way it’s set up is of huge SEO benefit to Brides.com. And the businesses are paying for it.

Also discussion about redirected links from directories:

“Redirects are very different from the nofollow links discussed above. A redirect does in fact pass along page rank (SEO benefit), unless the link also has a nofollow attribute.” - Jonas

The folk at SEOMoz.org would beg to differ. I submitted this question to them, and they felt, as I did, that redirected links, as in redirected to count clicks, etc, do not pass link juice.

Some of the florist directories use redirects. I've long suspected they were hoarding page rank.

Can we compile a list of directories that do and do not pass page rank?

 

[Bigted]

This sounds like a good idea Cathy. For those of us that are internet challenged, how do we spot one of these?

 

[lori042499]

I get so tired of all of this...These companies take advantage of so many people. This is why I get like a deer in the headlights when I am approached by advertising people. I get paralyzed with fear of spending useless dollars and boggled with all the web jargon that I do not have the proper knowledge to follow. I cannot possible make a good educated guess as to what and who is the right company to go with. So I find that I go with noone..

I am finding that the web gets more and more complicated the more I learn. It goes against everything that is normal. Usually the more you learn about a subject and the more you research it gets easier, not the web. I feel like I am always 3-5 steps behind on the learning curve and then when I finally do get something down pat it has changed or is not relevant anymore...It is begining to be something I want to avoid and that is no good...

 

[CHR]

Remember - I am not a full-blown webmaster like Infinite or Rich Dudley, but here is my understanding:

You usually have to look at the raw HTML via "View Source". (Right click on the page and select "View Source" from the the drop-down menu. The page code will be displayed in Notepad.) I use Edit ---> Find on this page > to locate my shop name rather than trying to read through all the code.

Sometimes you can also tell by just mousing over the link and look at the referring link details (generally diplayed in the area at the left bottom of your screen just above the task bar.)

From the blog post, here's what the 'no follows' look like in some directories:

<!--[if !supportLists]-->- <!--[endif]-->Citysearch
<!--[if !supportLists]-->- <!--[endif]-->DexKnows
<!--[if !supportLists]-->- <!--[endif]-->Yelp
<!--[if !supportLists]-->- <!--[endif]-->Insiderpages

Sometimes they actually include the words 'no follow' .

Sometimes the link to your site looks like http://spammy-link-directory/florist-link.cfm?floID=2366 instead of your real URL.

Sometimes the link with your shop name leads to a new directory page with your information - and that page's link is treated as above.

Maybe the real webmasters will weigh in with other ways to spot sites that prevent pagerank from passing.

Note: IF you are getting good traffic and sales from a YP/Directory and your site is doing well in natural SERPs, the 'no follow' may be a non-issue.

 

[CHR]

Lori - I understand how you feel - but much of the basic optimization is simple.

IF we could just get local florists to do the most basic things to help themselves: Photo of their own store, original description of their company (as opposed to the boilerplate template text), full address and local phone number on the home page - it would do wonders.

Adding unique products, descriptions helps even more. Getting good links from relevant local and topical sites especially helps.

Doing a great job as a florist with local customers does the best since they go to the web looking for you in the first place. That's why you don't want one of those IYPs to rank well for your name - cuz they might just 'help' your customer use someone else.

 

[mlou]

NOSCRIPT tags allow webmasters to provide info without Google passing page rank

BIG HINT: sometimes Google may not index content within the NOSCRIPT tag


examples:

<!ELEMENT NOSCRIPT - - (%block)+
-- alternate content container for non script-based rendering -->
<!ATTLIST NOSCRIPT %attrs; -- %coreattrs, %i18n, %events -->

and

<NOSCRIPT>
<P>Access the <A href="http://someflorist.com/city">data.</A>
</NOSCRIPT>

.

 

[CHR]

Thanks, Mary Lou! (...who should have been included on the real webmaster list with the other guys.)

 

[Eric S]

This is exactly the fire you need when it comes time to talk to these dirrectories. There link becomes useless. For the past 6 months most of our advertising is shifting around and what I like to do is tell them what I think their traffic is going to be worth to me.

Just like the BBB as they continue to call me. My price that i offer continues to go down since they won't stop calling and I keep telling them that their traffic andd link aren't worth as much as they claim.

I think the last call I offered $20 for the year.

 

[lori042499]

Lori - I understand how you feel - but much of the basic optimization is simple.

IF we could just get local florists to do the most basic things to help themselves: Photo of their own store, original description of their company (as opposed to the boilerplate template text), full address and local phone number on the home page - it would do wonders.

Adding unique products, descriptions helps even more. Getting good links from relevant local and topical sites especially helps.

Doing a great job as a florist with local customers does the best since they go to the web looking for you in the first place. That's why you don't want one of those IYPs to rank well for your name - cuz they might just 'help' your customer use someone else.

Yes, I have learned many of those things here and from my marketing counselor at TF. I notice that my website does far better than that of the shop I was managing. I just get so frustrated.

 

[RJD]

Before anyone goes berzerk over this, remember that Page Rank isn't the main indicator of how SERPs are arranged--relevance is. Sites with lower Page Rank will be higher in the SERPs than those with higher Page Rank if their content is more relevant to the search terms, as determined by Google's algorithm. Page Rank is poorly named--it's probably better named Page Importance in The Global Community as Determined by the Number of Inbound Links and the Same Value of Those Pages, but that's too long. Google is the only SE which has this kind of functionality, and they tell you the value you see in the Google Toolbar should be taken with a grain of salt. Given identical relevance, Page Rank would be a tiebraker when determining the order of SERPs, but it's difficult to have identical relevance for a search phrase.

If a directory site isn't linking directly to your site, the directory worthless. If the "noindex" or "nofollow" directives are part of the link, it's also useless. You're probably better off not being listed in these "directories" at all.

How to tell what's good and what isn't? Using the View Source (or View Code, depending on the browser) is the best way. You'll find this if you right-click on some white space. Use the search function (usually Edit --> Search, or Edit --> Find) to find your shop's listing, and look around for the hypelink. All hyperlinks start with "<a href=".

A good link, from Teleflora's Find a Florist, is below

<a href="http://www.bloomery.com?rfr=FF&amp;srccode=FindAFlorist&amp;dirid=27676&amp;faftype=1&amp;fafvalue=16001" id="RegularResultListControl__ctl0_FloristLink" target="_blank">

You can see right after the href is our shop's website, and neither nofollow nor noindex are part of the link. Good job, TF! Href means "HTTP Reference", and is the address the link goes to. TF has added a couple of parameters to the end of the link, which is OK in this context, probably hoping to show how important they are (or in our case, are not)--these show up in our logs files.

A lousy link from Yelp is below

<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.yelp.com/redir?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomery.com&amp;src_bizid=BYS8iRXsZvURG-gp_ytFkw" onclick="externalLinks(this);">www.bloomery.com</a>

Not only does Yelp include the nofollow directive (which tells Google's spider to not follow the link to your site), but the link is encoded in a JavaScript, so there is a redirect in there. No link love whatsoever. I wouldn't give Yelp a dime unless they change their link policy (and even then, maybe not). But, it is a review site, and you should keep on top of your business listing and reviews on the site.

 

[bloomz]

I see from viewing the source the localflowershop is one of the ones that gives no link juice. The href tags pull from their database with no real url in the code.

This is going to be a good thing to check when it comes to the usefulness of various directories.

locateaflowershop has my url in there.

Have to start checking the other ones.

Good topic - thanks guys for putting it up!

 

[theRKF]

I agree with Cathy that it's a disservice to the florist to have the nofollow attribute in the tag.

I also agree with RJD that Page Rank isn't the only factor to consider.

The primary reason for being in a directory is to be found - to get traffic. None of these tricks will hurt your direct referred traffic from the directory.

What RJD didn't include (unless I missed it?) was that link love DOES impact SERPs in all search engines. Google is the most in love with links and anchor text, but the new Yahoo update shows a much higher weighting towards links and link text, and MSN and Ask also consider links as a factor. Quality links from authoritative directory sites will make a huge difference in where your site places.

Link building is an essential part of off-page SEO, and for good reason. Highly respected directories using link condoms makes for a heavy impact on the client sites.

An interesting side note: There is speculation that Google ignores the nofollow on selected high authority sites like Wikipedia, because the site is too important to not factor into the rankings.

Ryan

 

[Eric S]

So then we can say that your link juice and your traffice are going to be the determining factors.

I have some advertisers that I have to create a their own landing page to track their traffic. Whats the deal with that? I assumed its becuase its a secured site is that a correct assumption?

 

[Eric S]

Since we pay to have our link in YP and others isn't that another reason why it couldn't pass anything?

 

[RJD]

What RJD didn't include (unless I missed it?) was that link love DOES impact SERPs in all search engines.

I left that part out because is begs the question of whether or not any of those links with a noflollow/noindex or via script count as link love. If the link doesn't pass Page Rank, does it pass love? I would doubt it, but I don't have final authority on the answer.

Since we pay to have our link in YP and others isn't that another reason why it couldn't pass anything?

Maybe--there's some controversy surrounding paid links. There have been hints from the SEs that this is a practice they'd like to end. I believe in Google's mind, links should be organic (i.e., neither requested nor paid for). If you want to pay for placement, go into Adwords. This is partly because Google wants its results to be natural, and partly because they want all of the action for themselves.

 

[theRKF]

I left that part out because is begs the question of whether or not any of those links with a nofollow/noindex or via script count as link love. If the link doesn't pass Page Rank, does it pass love? I would doubt it, but I don't have final authority on the answer.

Essentially PageRank is a barometer of link love. And link love / page rank / juice / whatever name you want plays a big role in SERPs.

Maybe--there's some controversy surrounding paid links. There have been hints from the SEs that this is a practice they'd like to end. I believe in Google's mind, links should be organic (i.e., neither requested nor paid for). If you want to pay for placement, go into Adwords. This is partly because Google wants its results to be natural, and partly because they want all of the action for themselves.

And yet Google uses YP data for their local search. Google doesn't hate all paid links - they do respect the Yahoo Directory, for example. What Google hates are out of context non-editorial links, which doesn't include YP. If I started selling ads on FlowerChat for "Best Source For LED Diodes" that would be non-editorial and out of context. If our FlowerChat directory charged an admission fee to be listed in the Country, State and City where your shop exists, that would be an acceptable paid link.

Ryan

 

[ivygreen]

page rank

Lori - I understand how you feel - but much of the basic optimization is simple.

IF we could just get local florists to do the most basic things to help themselves: Photo of their own store, original description of their company (as opposed to the boilerplate template text), full address and local phone number on the home page - it would do wonders.

Adding unique products, descriptions helps even more. Getting good links from relevant local and topical sites especially helps.

Doing a great job as a florist with local customers does the best since they go to the web looking for you in the first place. That's why you don't want one of those IYPs to rank well for your name - cuz they might just 'help' your customer use someone else.

This is the most clear advise I have received. And something that is very doable. When you are not familiar with all the terms or only receive info from those who are selling to you it can be an intimidating concept.

Sometimes the debate here back and forth on these concepts is not easy to follow, if you are just addressing these issues in your shop at the current time. This just was crystal clear and something I can start today. Thanks!

 

[RJD]

Essentially PageRank is a barometer of link love. And link love / page rank / juice / whatever name you want plays a big role in SERPs.

So it's true to say that if a link isn't passing PR, it's not passing any link love? I've assumed that's true, but haven't heard anything concrete.

And yet Google uses YP data for their local search.

YP data aren't totally paid. Google also has its own local data.

Google doesn't hate all paid links - they do respect the Yahoo Directory, for example.

Although they use DMOZ for the Google Directory. The Google/Yahoo relationship probably goes way back to Google's founding, when Google supplanted Alta Vista as Yahoo's search engine, and the Yahoo directory was human edited. Remember when teh fastest way to get into Google was to get listed in Yahoo's directory? The Yahoo directory used to be free admission, then they had the express inclusion option, then it was all paid. I doubt many people even know about the Yahoo directory any more.

What Google hates are out of context non-editorial links, which doesn't include YP. If I started selling ads on FlowerChat for "Best Source For LED Diodes" that would be non-editorial and out of context. If our FlowerChat directory charged an admission fee to be listed in the Country, State and City where your shop exists, that would be an acceptable paid link.

Good point, the trouble is Google can't discern paid from unpaid--they look the same in HTML. Context is also difficult for robots to discern, because many florists use LED lights in arrangements, but that wouldn't be known to Google.

 

[CHR]

Re: Paid directories

My understanding is that quality paid directories (human reviewed) do pass page rank (unless they're hoarding it). Google understands that it costs to review sites and maintain quality. They still like the Yahoo Directory but IMO many of the flower categories there stink - badly. Look at this one and tell me it lists mostly trusted, on-topic florist directories. Each listing costs $300/year.

It's the directories that include anyone/everyone - with spammy, keyword-loaded descriptions - or the ones that market themselves as basically selling page rank that get whacked.

 

[Tom Carlson]

Thanks for speaking your piece

I get so tired of all of this...These companies take advantage of so many people. This is why I get like a deer in the headlights when I am approached by advertising people. I get paralyzed with fear of spending useless dollars and boggled with all the web jargon that I do not have the proper knowledge to follow. I cannot possible make a good educated guess as to what and who is the right company to go with. So I find that I go with noone..

I am finding that the web gets more and more complicated the more I learn. It goes against everything that is normal. Usually the more you learn about a subject and the more you research it gets easier, not the web. I feel like I am always 3-5 steps behind on the learning curve and then when I finally do get something down pat it has changed or is not relevant anymore...It is begining to be something I want to avoid and that is no good...

Lori, thanks for speaking your piece. I feel exactly the same as you, but have justified my confusion that I have come from a different era. I just want somebody to say "Here is what you should or should not do/allow."

But instead it is a chain of letters [XLXO(made up)] that turns the dialog into the same difference as a foreign language.

And I doubt that it will ever change or that I will find someone to translate.

Having said that, I truly admire the knowledge that is exhibited on this forum.

Tom Carlson