JustFlowers

[theRKF]

It still strikes me that people love to lash out at the system for implied crimes committed outside the system. Order relay via WS works - plain and simple. The problem is what happens before the order is sent, or after it's received. It's like blaming FedEx for someone selling you a defective item on eBay. eBay isn't the issue - the seller is.

FTD & TF make nice big, easy targets. They are corps so people find it easier to blame them. If you are upset about the way they do business - drop ship, .com, local ads - then that might be something to complain about. It's not wrong, they are a business doing business; but, it's something to disagree about.

How many of you will turn down an order if you know a married guy is sending flowers to his girlfriend? It's unethical, and in my experience most florist will send the order and then "tsk, tsk" amongst themselves about how naughty he is.

What if the customer is a biker gang, or someone else you suspect makes their living in a shady manner. How many florists are going to vet their customers before handling the order? Or, are we just happy to accept the $$$ and tell our friends about the cool black ribbons we did for that biker funeral last week? FTD & TF at least make a half-hearted effort once in a while (from appearances - none of us are privy to the behind the scenes talks, so let's not pretend we know motivations or thought process).

I'm not trying to defend Just Flowers or any other company. I just get tired of a lack of perspective.

Ryan

 

[CHR]

So the terms of membership are meaningless?

From my perspective, the companies are overseeing the demise of once trusted national networks. At one time, inegrity mattered to those companies.

There's a big difference between a flower shop looking the other way and filling an order for a cheating spouse and a publicly traded company paying for deception and fraud.

Ryan - I respectfully disagree. IT IS WRONG - for consumers, for filling florists and for future of traditional florists.

 

[sfox]

To Infinite

FTD & TF at least make a half-hearted effort once in a while (from appearances - none of us are privy to the behind the scenes talks, so let's not pretend we know motivations or thought process).

I'm not trying to defend Just Flowers or any other company. I just get tired of a lack of perspective.

Ryan

There are rules. The rules are made by FTD & Teleflora and they are called rules of membership. If justflowers is allowed to break them INFINITE, then why can't the rest of us. If that happens then the whole system breaks down.

From my perspective, cheating is cheating. If you game the system and there are rules in place then you should be called on the carpet. We florists are so independent that we will allow anything to happen.

The real issue with the practices of justflowers is that they are cheating the sending customer. By cheating the sending customer, they give the whole system a black eye, and I mean each and every florist. Oh, you can say you are ethical and that your customer knows you, but every business has to grow and if florists want to be around in the future, they better make sure that the all the potential consumers holds them in a positive light.

Today companys like justflowers are putting flowers and florists in a bad light in the buying publics eyes. By doing this they are chasing customers to other forms of gift giving.

You can have the greatest shop location, you can carry the most extensive line of fresh flowers, you can be the most creative of designers, but if the public never considers the item you are selling because it carries with it negative feelings because of the bad business practices of companys like justflowers, then it all is for nothing.

 

[fairfield]

It still strikes me that people love to lash out at the system for implied crimes committed outside the system.

No different than lashing out at the criminal justice system when criminals get a short sentence. I'm not comparing crime to sending flowers. I will say that lashing out is an indicator that something is going wrong. In this case it is the WS's not only becoming a MAJOR competitor of their florist members, but fostering the proliferation of OG's using deceptive tactics and outright fraud.

Order relay via WS works - plain and simple. The problem is what happens before the order is sent, or after it's received. It's like blaming FedEx for someone selling you a defective item on eBay. eBay isn't the issue - the seller is.

No, it's like blaming eBay for allowing the sale of stolen merchandise on their site to go unchecked by turning a blind eye. FedEx has nothing to do with it.

I'm not trying to defend Just Flowers or any other company. I just get tired of a lack of perspective.

Ryan

Likewise, I am tired of the lack of action against the wire services. I am tired of the same old belief that the wire service is a NECESSARY component in this industry WHEN FLORISTS AS A WHOLE KNOW THIS CR*P IS TAKING PLACE EVERY DAY AND THE WIRE SERVICES HAVE DONE NOTHING TO CURTAIL IT.

I would hardly call it innovative or progressive or even smart to pay outrageous fees to your competition for a service that can be had by other means. But, those other means don't involve the easy 20% AND a REBATE.

The really sad part will be when the CUSTOMERS get tired of it all because the ones that will take the heat for deception and price gouging are going to be all of us little florists. You know, the ones that never took ACTION.

Just my opinion:thumbsup

 

[Rock]

Ryan,Ryan,Ryan,
That famous TO Smog must still be hanging around!

Your 'don't shoot the messenger' comparison is incorrect. They're not simply messengers. That's like saying that criminals commit crimes so the police should not stop it. The WS is complicit by enabling the situation to go on!

If the WS knows that 'ABC FOG' is skimming or curtailing orders and don't stop it, IT IS WRONG! The WS then is guilty of violating their own rules (that you know your shop would not be allowed to do) by allowing only SOME members to do whatever they like because the WS makes wads of cash from them.

In most cases, for you, me or any florist to turn down an order because we ASS-U-ME that the sender is guilty of (whatever) is unfairly 'convicting' that customer of that 'crime'. What we're talking about here is different. If enough florists have seen the evidence that what 'ABC FOG' is doing is skimming, curtailing, lying and OGing by deceit etc and then we should require that the WS stop the guilty parties. Since the WS understand nothing except massive loss of revenue, they won't change simply because a few complain.

Rant continues...........

If you treated your customers like the FOG's do then you'd be out of business, or should be. There is only one answer and that is thousands of resignations to the WS.
IMHO, it's obvious that the WS's know that their days are numbered but they're going to keep on taking members dollars as long as they're offered. Can you blame them? The new WS model they're striving toward is .com, supermarket and WalMart-type member order gathering for drop ship and they'll keep upping fees to members once or twice a year to fund their activities. Why not, they have nothing to lose; they know that most won't quit. Real florists are only in their immediate plans NOT in their future plans.

In short, the WS are no longer necessary BUT you must market your own business instead. It IS much more rewarding !!$$$$$$!!!!!!!

Rock on

Hugh

 

[theRKF]

Hehehehe ....

Stirred that pot good, didn't I :>

Ryan

 

[12BucksFor2Dozon]

Stirred that pot good, didn't I :>

I saw that flamebait from half a world away...you didn't get *me* to bite.

 

[theRKF]

I saw that flamebait from half a world away...you didn't get *me* to bite.

I didn't say it was flamebait.

The comparisons might have been off, but it was a quick post. I think it had some merits, though.

Do the membership rules mean anything? Of course I say yes. I personally congratulated Soenen & Stornelli for tossing Urban, and I applaud any effort to stop outright theft.

The question: What is up to the WS and what is left to the florists' and consumers' responsibility? If the site shows, however fine the print, that a charge is being included in the list price when a customer purchases an item, then it's not a illegal. It's not shown as delivery charge, so according to WS rules it doesn't have to be sent along. The customer chooses to spend their money where and as they see fit. The floral industry is by no means the leader in this regard.

The WS have become the whipping boys for people disgruntled with their level of profitability. Are they perfect? No. Nothing is. No business is. My point is that a florist will deal with just about any customer as long as they are being paid. It's not up to a florist to condemn someone for their romantic habits or choices; but they can "fire" a customer who is stealing, or a customer who is stalking through flowers.

What would you do if your wholesaler came to you and said: "I don't like that you do _____, so I won't sell you any flowers." Hmm.... strange concept, no? It's not something directly related to a transaction with that wholesaler, so it's not their business.

Alternately, should wholesalers stop selling to florists that mistreat their employees? What about shops that cheat on their taxes? Cash under the table?

Once again, for those that missed it: I'm not saying the WS don't have a responsibility to ensure members follow their guidelines. We just have to be sure to complain about the right things, and not turn them into a convenient and misguided outlet for our frustration. So what if being with a WS didn't make you money ... you tried it, now try something else. Other people are playing by the rules and making money. It's not a crime.

So you feel like the WS sold you a bill of goods? Are you a grown up making your own business decisions? I know I've made plenty of goofs trying to grow our business. Some partnerships are profitable, some are not. Some service providers have a service(s) that help you - some do not. Situations vary, and you have to move on from the duds when they happen. You also have to stick to the ones that work.

Ok, enough for now ... waiting for a flight. Darn tornadoes really put a krimp in my scheduling!

Ryan

 

[theRKF]

Ok, just cuz the multi-quote feature is so cool, here's a bit more.

So the terms of membership are meaningless?

From my perspective, the companies are overseeing the demise of once trusted national networks. At one time, inegrity mattered to those companies.

There's a big difference between a flower shop looking the other way and filling an order for a cheating spouse and a publicly traded company paying for deception and fraud.

Ryan - I respectfully disagree. IT IS WRONG - for consumers, for filling florists and for future of traditional florists.

IT IS WRONG. What is wrong? How independent companies market themselves? How they sell? Urban was wrong - they lied, they stole, they didn't deliver. The blame for excessive service charges falls on the customer willing to pay them.

There are rules. The rules are made by FTD & Teleflora and they are called rules of membership. If justflowers is allowed to break them INFINITE, then why can't the rest of us. If that happens then the whole system breaks down.

From my perspective, cheating is cheating. If you game the system and there are rules in place then you should be called on the carpet. We florists are so independent that we will allow anything to happen.

The real issue with the practices of justflowers is that they are cheating the sending customer. By cheating the sending customer, they give the whole system a black eye, and I mean each and every florist. Oh, you can say you are ethical and that your customer knows you, but every business has to grow and if florists want to be around in the future, they better make sure that the all the potential consumers holds them in a positive light.

Today companys like justflowers are putting flowers and florists in a bad light in the buying publics eyes. By doing this they are chasing customers to other forms of gift giving.

You can have the greatest shop location, you can carry the most extensive line of fresh flowers, you can be the most creative of designers, but if the public never considers the item you are selling because it carries with it negative feelings because of the bad business practices of companys like justflowers, then it all is for nothing.

Ok, so you think Just Flowers is a black mark on the industry? Yet, people keep buying flowers from them. My bigger concern is the majority of flower shops that can't handle the basics, don't know how to run a business, can't design worth #$%^ and are only in the biz so they can play with flowers as a semi-retirement hobby. 12bucks loves these shops We're so busy whining about the fine print on someone else's website when most shops don't even know their own URL - if they have one. How many times has a florist told you their email starts with www? <Here's a hint: there are a few each month that try to sign up here with [email protected] and wonder why their account doesn't activate>

No different than lashing out at the criminal justice system when criminals get a short sentence. I'm not comparing crime to sending flowers. I will say that lashing out is an indicator that something is going wrong. In this case it is the WS's not only becoming a MAJOR competitor of their florist members, but fostering the proliferation of OG's using deceptive tactics and outright fraud.

No, it's like blaming eBay for allowing the sale of stolen merchandise on their site to go unchecked by turning a blind eye. FedEx has nothing to do with it.

Likewise, I am tired of the lack of action against the wire services. I am tired of the same old belief that the wire service is a NECESSARY component in this industry WHEN FLORISTS AS A WHOLE KNOW THIS CR*P IS TAKING PLACE EVERY DAY AND THE WIRE SERVICES HAVE DONE NOTHING TO CURTAIL IT.

I would hardly call it innovative or progressive or even smart to pay outrageous fees to your competition for a service that can be had by other means. But, those other means don't involve the easy 20% AND a REBATE.

The really sad part will be when the CUSTOMERS get tired of it all because the ones that will take the heat for deception and price gouging are going to be all of us little florists. You know, the ones that never took ACTION.

Just my opinion:thumbsup

Nope - the criminal justice system exists for the sole purpose of finding and prosecuting criminals. What we are talking about here is not criminal. About the OGs that are engaged in criminal activity (like Urban), we are in agreement. The larger volume of complaints is about the companies that use more agressive marketing means. The case has been given about an OG showing that they deduct a charge from the listed amount. That's plenty legal. These companies aren't doing anything that most other large companies - and some smaller ones - do to market themselves.

The eBay analogy works - FTD doesn't make the sale, doesn't deal with the customer - they only facilitate getting the order from point A to point B, and seeing that both shops get paid their agreed amounts.

Ryan,Ryan,Ryan,
That famous TO Smog must still be hanging around!

Your 'don't shoot the messenger' comparison is incorrect. They're not simply messengers. That's like saying that criminals commit crimes so the police should not stop it. The WS is complicit by enabling the situation to go on!

If the WS knows that 'ABC FOG' is skimming or curtailing orders and don't stop it, IT IS WRONG! The WS then is guilty of violating their own rules (that you know your shop would not be allowed to do) by allowing only SOME members to do whatever they like because the WS makes wads of cash from them.

In most cases, for you, me or any florist to turn down an order because we ASS-U-ME that the sender is guilty of (whatever) is unfairly 'convicting' that customer of that 'crime'. What we're talking about here is different. If enough florists have seen the evidence that what 'ABC FOG' is doing is skimming, curtailing, lying and OGing by deceit etc and then we should require that the WS stop the guilty parties. Since the WS understand nothing except massive loss of revenue, they won't change simply because a few complain.

Rant continues...........

If you treated your customers like the FOG's do then you'd be out of business, or should be. There is only one answer and that is thousands of resignations to the WS.
IMHO, it's obvious that the WS's know that their days are numbered but they're going to keep on taking members dollars as long as they're offered. Can you blame them? The new WS model they're striving toward is .com, supermarket and WalMart-type member order gathering for drop ship and they'll keep upping fees to members once or twice a year to fund their activities. Why not, they have nothing to lose; they know that most won't quit. Real florists are only in their immediate plans NOT in their future plans.

In short, the WS are no longer necessary BUT you must market your own business instead. It IS much more rewarding !!$$$$$$!!!!!!!

Rock on

Hugh

Hugh, you're wrong.


The smog is in Hamilton.

 

[Rock]

Smog may be manufactured in Hamilton (I heard Mikey has shares and it's a sinister plot to invade TO) but it lived in TO when I was there . Glad to see we see eye to eye on the rest! oke:

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Hugh, you're wrong.

HUGH...you ARE WRONG!!


The smog is in Hamilton.

Hugh, the "smog" is in Hamilton, the bad "smells" come from Toronto

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Smog may be manufactured in Hamilton (I heard Mikey has shares and it's a sinister plot to invade TO) but it lived in TO when I was there . Glad to see we see eye to eye on the rest! oke:

Actually, and surprisingly, Hamilton no longer fits "the bill"
Gonna start a new thread about some pretty exciting news about Hamilton, and it's "burbs", and it's world class stuff!!
We are wayyy off topic!!
Here's how it is.....WS's set the rules, REAL FLORISTS tend to pay and follow the rules, FAKE FLORISTS don't seem to have to!!
Ryan is right & wrong at the same time...his description of the services 'rendered" by wire services is correct...his attempt to "diffuse" their responsibilities is INCORRECT!!
I have successfully had our shop removed from OG lists just by fighting fire with fire, and have retaliated using profanity, and sarcasm, and they DO NOT LIKE IT!!...and there are areas around here, where they CANNOT GET ANY orders filled...PERIOD!!
I hit them first with a huge price change, demand an immediate answer, and while sitting at the MERC, send out a SECOND NOTICE, right after the first!!
You'd be surprised how many times we've been paid, and NOT filled ANY of their orders!!

 

[goldfish]

So, just curious here, why would you want to remain a member of an organization that fosters this business practice - especially if you think it is giving consumers a reason not to buy flowers?

Quiting an organization whose practice I or you despise would be honorable, but inconsequential, unless it has some kind of impact on the organization, which in our case would be none.

So for me, the issue is simply a conflict between "matter of principle" and business practicality. In some cases, "matter of principle" wins; thus, I decided that we no longer accept any incoming orders from JustFlowers.

In other cases, business practicality wins. Thus I shop at Wal-mart, buy my grocery at a local supermarket who competes against us.

FTD is a gray area. At this point of time, we do profittable business with them; about 10% of gross profit comes from FTD wires. Not much, but significant. Should I cut that off to save my honor? No, I wouldn't do that.

 

[goldfish]

BTW....can I get permission to use your experience and screen shots on www.floristdetective.com ?

Of course. We have always admired a tremendous job you and others have done at floristdetective. In fact I have discovered FC through a link from floristdetective.

 

[fairfield]

Quiting an organization whose practice I or you despise would be honorable, but inconsequential, unless it has some kind of impact on the organization, which in our case would be none.

Exactly - Like voting in an election.

At this point of time, we do profittable business with them; about 10% of gross profit comes from FTD wires. Not much, but significant. Should I cut that off to save my honor? No, I wouldn't do that.

Money before honor. Wow! Kudos for actually saying it. I don't agree with your statements AT ALL, but I'm impressed with your honesty.

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

as odd as this may seem.....

does it appear that we are making some progress here??
We've moved from bashing each other over which WS we should belong to, TO, attacking the very foundation, upon which those remaining WS's, have DE-EVOLVED to!!
We DO have choices STILL, and can either CHOOSE to fill shop to shop orders, and IGNORE the REST, we can CHOOSE to fill orders for SOME "upfront" OG's, AND florist to florist orders, or we CAN CHOOSE to NOT send and recieve orders by way of a WS at all!!
A few of you feel betrayed and feel that your businesses have been stung, by the new way that WS's have decided to operate, and for the death of me, I DON'T understand WHY, but, accept that you have.
Some of you have expressed opinions, and downright hateful mongering of WS's because members pay to be members,yet, limitied numbers of members partake in the FULL USE of the tools available from WS's.
I DON'T KNOW WHERE you get off thinking that a business entity like FTD or TF, should NOT BE allowed to operate THEIR businesses, the way THEY see fit, and to be honest, FORGET the RULE BOOK...just plain FORGET IT!!
Have ANY OF YOU been brought to the carpet, as a result of the "RULE BOOK??"...have ANY OF YOU been denied the way YOU DO BUSINESS because of the rule book?? Have you NOT had at your disposal ALL the functionality of the wire service, BUT, have chosen to IGNORE the infrastructure costs associated with TRYING to operate a "profitable co-operative"??
OG's sprang to life, because FLORISTS dropped the ball, REAL FLORISTS dropped the ball, it was third down, on the goal line, and florists fumbled, and wasted a great opportunity...and it's happened MANY TIMES!!
Does that mean EVERY PLAYER in this industry react the same way??
With ALL MY BREATH, I disagree!!
There is a handful of intelligent florists, probably MOST of them are here at FC......and at THIS CREDIBILITY LEVEL, we should NOT be surprised that "DOG" operations are BUSINESS oriented, and most REAL FLORISTS are NOT!

 

[goldfish]

Exactly - Like voting in an election.

Here's an interesting "what-if" scenario... If you vote for a candidate who turn out of be a loser, you agree to give away some money.

Money before honor. Wow! Kudos for actually saying it. I don't agree with your statements AT ALL, but I'm impressed with your honesty.

The last thing I want to be is a hypocrite. To do anything honorable would incur a cost, sometimes a huge cost (such as life). I would think twice before presenting myself as an honorable person.

 

[12BucksFor2Dozon]

...
FTD is a gray area. At this point of time, we do profitable business with them; about 10% of gross profit comes from FTD wires. Not much, but significant. Should I cut that off to save my honor? No, I wouldn't do that.

And therein lies the REAL soul of this issue...to me, this is a no-brainier the other way. 10%? Geez, Goldfish, you could easily make this up with a little email or B2B marketing, and dump FTD once and for all.

Your honor is only worth 10% of GROSS profit? My honor is worth 10x that...good luck to you. I hope you find personal satisfaction with all the disposable "stuff" that you can purchase with those dollars...I would rather eat Ramen and hold onto my principles and honor, TYVM, not that I have to.

Funny thing happens to honorable people...they get a reputation for treating everyone well, and the money just chases them down the street...

 

[goldfish]

Your honor is only worth 10% of GROSS profit? My honor is worth 10x that...good luck to you. I hope you find personal satisfaction with all the disposable "stuff" that you can purchase with those dollars...I would rather eat Ramen and hold onto my principles and honor, TYVM, not that I have to.

People who quit a WS did not do so just to save their honor. Most of those who quit a WS did so because, according to them, they weren't making enough money from WS operations. This can be easily supported by the numerous posts here in which those who have quit a WS all insist (with no exception as far as I can recall) that WS is a money-losing business. It then follows that, when they were a WS member, they must have been not making as much money as they thought they should from their WS operations.

What this tells you is this. People who chose to quit a WS actually did not sacrifice anything as far as their own thinking goes. According to them, they made a wise business decision, so that... listen to this... they can make more money. In other words, they made a decision that, they believe, would be better for their business. This is a business decision and it has little or no element of self-sacrifice for a higher cause, a requirement for any honorable acts in my book.

What I have been having a hard time understanding is the tendency of some (not all) of WS-quiters to argue a moral, ethical higher ground in their reasoning of why people should not support WS operations. Frankly, talk of ethics, morality, honor, etc in discussing what is essentially a business decision, to me, is silly. It's even a little bit insulting to those who truly have to confront these issues at their own lives at stake. We are talking about money, just silly stupid money that we are talking about.

If these people had quit a WS out of principle or honor, and they suffered a severe financial pain as the results, I sure take my hat off to them. That's a difficult thing to do. Some of them might have do that. If you are one of them, my hat off to you and you have my permission to call me a wimp.

A common sense, however, tells me that these courageous/honorable acts are rather rare in a real world, not as common place as in cyber rants. That's why we admire true heros. I also happen to believe that true heros usually don't shout "I'm a hero!"; these people tend to be quiet and don't brag about what they did and why. I know a couple of people like that.

Most of WS-quiters quit a WS because they weren't making as much profit from WS as they believed they were entitled to, and were angry about it. In that case, here is no real difference in morality/ethics between these WS-quiters and people who chose to stay with WS because of money, is there not?

Thanks for reading. Nothing personal, 12 bucks. I actually think you are a nice, interesting guy in a real life.

 

[CHR]

Anatomy of the Complaint

Aside from the usual discussion about belonging/not belonging to a WS, forgotten in all this is why Goldfish was stuck in the middle of a complaint in the first place. Bottom line:

1) The seller purposely chose to not fully convey what was presented to the customer as her purchased product.

2) The seller told the customer her itemized dollars were paying for 'shipping' - when they were not.

We don't know how the shopper found JF or why she chose to trust it's site. Could it have been a "$10 off" or 'local florist delivers' ad or the FTD logo with "Top Member" on the home page? (BTW, that logo comes and goes depending on cookies AFAICT.)

FTD is more than a vendor. They buy JF's orders via rebate dollars to pass on to local florists . FTD is a marketing partner, providing JF with proprietary product images and the granting of access to a proprietary network. I understand they also give JF access to network data not available to 99.9% of FTD's members.

TF did the same until they were tired of the skimming - and kicked them out.