QUITTing TELEFLORA???

[lori042499]

Cash flow is a huge issue and one of the many reasons the WS game is a very very individual decision...I will still say that most months I come out ahead on my WS stuff, when analizing what I would have to pay elsewhere anyway and what I pay in membership fees, etc...Cash flow when my local stuff is down is where I get nervous...I don't use credit especially to get stuff for Wire orders, that game is just stupid...

But just because a shop has a tight cash flo doesn't mean every owner reacts to the squeeze the same. Meaning some are quite OK being squeezed tight if they know they moved product and will make even a few bucks at the end of the month, some get very nervous when cash flo gets tight and jump into the sky is falling mode and make rash decisions without full and proper analytics, I am one of those people...I think these are the emotional decisions Bloomz refers to...

I do understand that you were not happy with your cash flo and decided to make a move away from what was squeezing you, and you did your full analytics and yeah, good for you, it worked you are still in biz and doing well. But you have to understand that for some they may just be cutting out the 200.00 a month that is keeping them from doing major damage to their biz because they could easily have to pay off the loan for their POS system and get a loan that will be at 12 percent instead of 4 or 5 and have all kinds of new costs and no orders to make that cost up...all because they made a rash decision on whether or not they were making money or not...and many florists dn't even know the first step in figuring out how to figure if they have made money or not...it sometimes confuses me....because there are so many small stupid charges that you can go batty just making the facts and figures make any sense...

 

[Joe Mioux]

Doing the math.....

Saturday afternoon, I was sitting with Anna, my son Michael, and the Department Head of Natural Resources and Environmental Sciences from the University of Illinois.

He told us that many graduates often fail in their businesses because they don't have enough Accounting classes, specifically Cost Accounting. (In a nut shell, he said, They are good at design or whatever field, but they lack the business acumen to make good decisions based on numbers rather than feelings and guesses.)

Tom's advice is dead on accurate, and I think I have mentioned more than once "Do the Math"...

Do the Break-even analysis, then make the decision. If you want to know how, ask me.

joe

 

[goldfish]

Oh I think it is a twelve month issue. Even if you have access to a credit line or some other financing there is a cost to that also. Also the snowball effect can bury many small businesses. .

Cost for waiting for 45 days would be the interest charged on the credit used to purchase flowers for wire-in orders. There's some but it's small: about $15 a month for every $1,000 purchase.

"Snowball" effect occurs only when a) the shop doesn't pay the debt in full in one billing cycle and b) the shop incurs additional debt on top of the unpaid debt. Both a) and b) must happen before any "snowball" effect takes place.

If a shop is seeing "snowball" effect of debt, they would have to analyze their finance carefully. Just stopping WS membership may or may not solve the problem. In fact, under certain conditions, it could make the situation worse.

 

[inferno63]

Lori, if you are assuming that I fired the WS because of a "squeeze" on my cash flow, that is not the reason. I have financial resources. I fired the WS because of red numbers. I did not make money on the WS. I crunched the numbers several ways and the only way I could have made money is to send 3 times more than I received. The sliding scale and increased fees with more orders received is hard to offset. Now, had they sent me more orders and, therefore, my fees increased in porportion, and I tried to fill all of their deeply discounted orders, I am sure that I would have felt the "squeeze" you are talking about. I held tight to minimums and I watched for that one more order that would move my membership fee from $9.99 to $29.99. Was it close to the end of the month? Was it a big enough order to offset the extra money? Etc.

Believe me.....I absolutely am emotional sometimes. Mother nature sneaks up on me and makes me wicked sometimes but I assure you that my decision to fire the WS monster is only based on the numbers. If I could rake in some green with the WS I would be their biggest fan and maybe work out a flashy endorsement deal. lol

 

[lori042499]

Cost for waiting for 45 days would be the interest charged on the credit used to purchase flowers for wire-in orders. There's some but it's small: about $15 a month for every $1,000 purchase.

"Snowball" effect occurs only when a) the shop doesn't pay the debt in full in one billing cycle and b) the shop incurs additional debt on top of the unpaid debt. Both a) and b) must happen before any "snowball" effect takes place.

If a shop is seeing "snowball" effect of debt, they would have to analyze their finance carefully. Just stopping WS membership may or may not solve the problem. In fact, under certain conditions, it could make the situation worse.

Boy you said a mouthful there....sage words...analyze with your eyes wide open...The thing I hate the most is when people say, take the money you spend each month on wire service and do x with it....

If you are not in a ws, there is no orders from said wire service and is no money spent or made....for most shops WS is a break even venture or very small profit, therefore getting rid of them may not change the business at all or it might take a very little profit which may or may not impact badly..

For a shop losing money, depending on why they are losing money ie. bad buying habits, over staffing, dropping ws could really impact the biz in a bad way because now they still buy badly and have no where to dump the excess flowers, and now have really way too much staff...

What I am saying is the WS statement is never what it seems and must be disected and analyze immensley before just reacting and slashing...it does not work for all and some should just not have it...but for some it is a necessary part of their biz model and has some merit and cutting it just brings up a whole lot of other snowballed issues to deal with...

 

[lori042499]

Lori, if you are assuming that I fired the WS because of a "squeeze" on my cash flow, that is not the reason. I have financial resources. I fired the WS because of red numbers. I did not make money on the WS. I crunched the numbers several ways and the only way I could have made money is to send 3 times more than I received. The sliding scale and increased fees with more orders received is hard to offset. Now, had they sent me more orders and, therefore, my fees increased in porportion, and I tried to fill all of their deeply discounted orders, I am sure that I would have felt the "squeeze" you are talking about. I held tight to minimums and I watched for that one more order that would move my membership fee from $9.99 to $29.99. Was it close to the end of the month? Was it a big enough order to offset the extra money? Etc.

Believe me.....I absolutely am emotional sometimes. Mother nature sneaks up on me and makes me wicked sometimes but I assure you that my decision to fire the WS monster is only based on the numbers. If I could rake in some green with the WS I would be their biggest fan and maybe work out a flashy endorsement deal. lol

Twas not directed at anyone...you have a history of thinking things are directed at you and this was not...Please don't unleash the emotional beast on me again on this issue...I am not and never will direct any of these issues at you or anyone else, simply because I don't know your biz or you abilities and to direct any WS crap at anyone and directly tell them that they need or don't need a WS or they make or don't make money on them is absurd....

Let's get this straight, there are many pricing structure with WS not everyone pays the same amounts at any one company, it is all negotiable...no two shops gets the same products, incoming or outoing orders, ads, rebates or services...similarly none of us pay the same amounts for our fresh products or pay our help the same..there is no way anyone here can guess whether or not anyone of us makes money on our particular WS game...each person must learn to do their own analytics and come up with their own answer...if they do not know how, then the easy answer is they have no business being in such a complicated thing as a WS and should probably stick with 100% orders taken in and sent out of their own doors...


OH yeah, and just for the record, I am not stating that I have a flawless system for my analytics, nor am I saying that I am better than anyone else...I just do the best I can with my numbers everyday and crunch them often to try to drive my business in the forward progression...I am not an accountant, but am doing OK with numbers and keeping them all as real and uncomplecated as I can....

 

[inferno63]

Twas not directed at anyone...you have a history of thinking things are directed at you and this was not...Please don't unleash the emotional beast on me again on this issue...I am not and never will direct any of these issues at you or anyone else, simply because I don't know your biz or you abilities and to direct any WS crap at anyone and directly tell them that they need or don't need a WS or they make or don't make money on them is absurd....

Let's get this straight, there are many pricing structure with WS not everyone pays the same amounts at any one company, it is all negotiable...no two shops gets the same products, incoming or outoing orders, ads, rebates or services...similarly none of us pay the same amounts for our fresh products or pay our help the same..there is no way anyone here can guess whether or not anyone of us makes money on our particular WS game...each person must learn to do their own analytics and come up with their own answer...if they do not know how, then the easy answer is they have no business being in such a complicated thing as a WS and should probably stick with 100% orders taken in and sent out of their own doors...


OH yeah, and just for the record, I am not stating that I have a flawless system for my analytics, nor am I saying that I am better than anyone else...I just do the best I can with my numbers everyday and crunch them often to try to drive my business in the forward progression...I am not an accountant, but am doing OK with numbers and keeping them all as real and uncomplecated as I can....

Oh Lori, read the post I said "IF." And I wish you could hear my tone in my voice and not read so literally. I am sarcastic by nature. If (IF) you took my "emotional" comment literally, please don't. I poke fun at myself to bring down the tension, not elevate it. Even though not intended, I do get a rise out of you. I apologize if that is how you are reading into it.

I think that I have decided to stay WS free but encourage all other florists to sign up and stay with them. Pondering.......:bow_flowe

 

[lori042499]

nope just going on history and trying to stop that mess before it happens again, all is good!!!!

 

[TOTO]

And, THAT'S DA FACTS!

Believe me.....I absolutely am emotional sometimes. Mother nature sneaks up on me and makes me wicked sometimes but I assure you that my decision to fire the WS monster is only based on the numbers. If I could rake in some green with the WS I would be their biggest fan and maybe work out a flashy endorsement deal. lol

Don't think you can make your position any clearer than that!

Only time any florist can get into the black with a WS partner, is when they are SENDING OUT many more orders than they are FILLING!

Even if it's a wash, (send out 100/get in a 100) the incoming order profitability still erodes by another 10% (-7% clearing house fee -3% FTO) Just like the VIG at any casino, especially at their HIGH PROFIT slot machines, since THE HOUSE always has the advantage over the players.

And, the only way to offset your incoming profit errosion is with the rebates you've earned from your outgoing orders.

Which is why, we have so many MIDDLEMAN d'OG's, OG's, and DOT.CONS, tipping the REAL FLORIST'S PROFITABILTY SCALES, and why the WS's themselves, joined into the FREY!

None of them are STUPID ENOUGH to be on the FILLING SIDE of the HIGHLY DISCOUNTED and SKIMMED incoming order spectrum!

While crunching the WS numbers is not ROCKET SCIENCE, it is surely complicated for the best of bookkeepers or lazy accountants.

Then again, the WS's planned it that way. DUH!

How any FILLING FLORIST can justify a mere 5% profit over their 30%COGS while throwing in FREE LABOR and FREE DELIVERY, and still call that a marginal contribution to offset their operating expenses, is another FLORIST MYSTERY OF LIFE, which I will never be able to understand.

Oh, that's right! I remember the story line now.

Their help was standing around doing nothing anyway, their truck was driving passed there anyway, their flowers were standing around doing nothing anyway, and those recipients will eventually become their customers, and so, DOO-ING ALL THAT WORK FOR FREE is always a great investment in their future!

Only problem is that, Santa Claus ain't coming to your town anytime soon, and recipients are JUST RECIPIENT'S since less than half of one percent of them, will ever send flowers through any florist EVER!

It BEE WHAT IT BEE! Just a WS's STORYLINE to effect their desired results, thus perpetuating while perpetrating THEIR MYTH!

 

[master J]

Just for the record too, I made out well with the WS and always sent a lot of wire outs and filled none! I wrote them a fat check every week and used them like the you know whats that they are, just like Bloomz always says, but I decided that I do not want to be associated with them anymore, because they are crooks, and I refuse to be part of it, even though I made money off them....that doesnt matter, call me stupid but I care about the future of our industry and the WS don't!

They were & still are using membership money to compete against us, WTF!

Do you have any idea what they talk about at their board meetings, they are laughing at all the FWOAC, and just banking on them to keep sticking with the WS. They know exactly what they are doing, and could care less about 95% of the hard working florists out there!

 

[inferno63]

None of them are STUPID ENOUGH to be on the FILLING SIDE of the HIGHLY DISCOUNTED and SKIMMED incoming order spectrum!

:hug: I love you TOTO! I wish I would have thought of that!

 

[goldfish]

I have a question about that Goldie.

If I quit can I still gripe incessantly about them here?

Happens all the time?

Using inferno's analogy, these people used to be married to WS. They had a bad marriage, which ended with less then amicable divorce.

They can't stand anyone saying good things about their ex. They want to make sure their ex become lonely and, some day, understand how good they are and beg to reconcile.

That's my uneducated guess.

 

[Chezbloom]

I am not a Floralbot

I think it would be hard to turn the recipient into a purchaser when you are filling orders in styles you may not even like making with only a small % of the money the customer paid for said orders. We have had success with recipients becoming customers. I think its because we make our own designs and we fill the orders to full value. Full value is never what the WS filling shop is getting.

 

[inferno63]

Don't think you can make your position any clearer than that!

Only time any florist can get into the black with a WS partner, is when they are SENDING OUT many more orders than they are FILLING!

Even if it's a wash, (send out 100/get in a 100) the incoming order profitability still erodes by another 10% (-7% clearing house fee -3% FTO) Just like the VIG at any casino, especially at their HIGH PROFIT slot machines, since THE HOUSE always has the advantage over the players.

And, the only way to offset your incoming profit errosion is with the rebates you've earned from your outgoing orders.

Which is why, we have so many MIDDLEMAN d'OG's, OG's, and DOT.CONS, tipping the REAL FLORIST'S PROFITABILTY SCALES, and why the WS's themselves, joined into the FREY!

None of them are STUPID ENOUGH to be on the FILLING SIDE of the HIGHLY DISCOUNTED and SKIMMED incoming order spectrum!

While crunching the WS numbers is not ROCKET SCIENCE, it is surely complicated for the best of bookkeepers or lazy accountants.

Then again, the WS's planned it that way. DUH!

How any FILLING FLORIST can justify a mere 5% profit over their 30%COGS while throwing in FREE LABOR and FREE DELIVERY, and still call that a marginal contribution to offset their operating expenses, is another FLORIST MYSTERY OF LIFE, which I will never be able to understand.

Oh, that's right! I remember the story line now.

Their help was standing around doing nothing anyway, their truck was driving passed there anyway, their flowers were standing around doing nothing anyway, and those recipients will eventually become their customers, and so, DOO-ING ALL THAT WORK FOR FREE is always a great investment in their future!

Only problem is that, Santa Claus ain't coming to your town anytime soon, and recipients are JUST RECIPIENT'S since less than half of one percent of them, will ever send flowers through any florist EVER!

It BEE WHAT IT BEE! Just a WS's STORYLINE to effect their desired results, thus perpetrating and perpetuating THE MYTH!

Using inferno's analogy, these people used to be married to WS. They had a bad marriage, which ended with less then amicable divorce.

They can't stand anyone saying good things about their ex. They want to make sure their ex become lonely and, some day, understand how good they are and beg to reconcile.

That's my uneducated guess.

I just wish they were not trying to get child support now. Maybe then I might be able to let it go with counceling! :itspurple

 

[Joe Mioux]

The worst part about these threads is that eventually certain posters will insinuate that the other side of the debate is/are too stupid to make good decisions.

The best part about certain poster's Editorial Posts is that they don't have to be (exactly) accurate to be published.

inferno, i think when you quit the WS bus, you were only receiving/ sending about 5 orders per month. You would never be profitable at those levels. you made the correct decision and dropped the ws business.

 

[sfox]

You guys have it all wrong.

You can make money from a wire service.

You first, buy every holiday and everyday container the wire service sells.

You buy a top of the line point of sale computer system with all the bells and whistles.

You buy the biggest and best website the wire service has to offer.

Sign up for ad's in the directory for all 57 of your nearest zips codes.

Pay whatever they ask for after hours phone answering services.

Lastly, send out as many wire outs as you can.

Final step, don't pay the bills and work out a $10.00 a month payment plan until they are paid off.

It's AIG in reverse.

 

[inferno63]

The worst part about these threads is that eventually certain posters will insinuate that the other side of the debate is/are too stupid to make good decisions.

The best part about certain poster's Editorial Posts is that they don't have to be (exactly) accurate to be published.

inferno, i think when you quit the WS bus, you were only receiving/ sending about 5 orders per month. You would never be profitable at those levels. you made the correct decision and dropped the ws business.

Close...I received about 16 to 20 total incoming for FTD and 1800 combined that I accepted and sent maybe 2 a month. Towards the end those numbers dwindled. But I created a spreadsheet that took all fees and sliding scales into account and the only way that it would have been profitable for me outside of reality was if I was sending approximately 30 a month and only filling less that 20. Not going to happen in my market. The funny thing is that I get calls from FTD and Teleflora once a month with promises of riches. They need me more than I need them.

I would hate to be in a position that some florists are in where their business is dependent on those WS in-coming orders to survive. I have enough of my own sales that dropping the WS benefitted my bottom line tremendously. I had another florist tell me that being busy is not necessarily being profitable.

And this thread is turning the same as all the WS threads.....we end up not discussing anymore but battling. Either way, I will participate and continue to learn no matter what attitude is heaved upon me. I still love you all! :iwuvyou:

 

[Joe Mioux]

Close...I received about 16 to 20 total incoming for FTD and 1800 combined that I accepted and sent maybe 2 a month. Towards the end those numbers dwindled. But I created a spreadsheet that took all fees and sliding scales into account and the only way that it would have been profitable for me outside of reality was if I was sending approximately 30 a month and only filling less that 20. Not going to happen in my market. The funny thing is that I get calls from FTD and Teleflora once a month with promises of riches. They need me more than I need them.

I would hate to be in a position that some florists are in where their business is dependent on those WS in-coming orders to survive. I have enough of my own sales that dropping the WS benefitted my bottom line tremendously. I had another florist tell me that being busy is not necessarily being profitable.

And this thread is turning the same as all the WS threads.....we end up not discussing anymore but battling. Either way, I will participate and continue to learn no matter what attitude is heaved upon me. I still love you all! :iwuvyou:

you told me that you were getting around 5 orders per month from FTD.

joe

 

[goldfish]

Time to move on?:dunno:

 

[inferno63]

you told me that you were getting around 5 orders per month from FTD.

joe

That is about right. I said that combined equals 16 to 20 (1800 plus ftd). I was accepting not getting. Many of the FTD were those crappy $30 orders which I rejected. But, if you want an accurate total I will be happy to look that up when I have time. I have no fear in backing my comments here with documentation.