This is another order collector site that seems to link consumers to a local florist; it covers specific provinces, states, cities, towns through all of North America AND around the world. I'm complaining to TF Canada but don't expect anything to be done.......
Simonsaysroses.com
- Thread starter Rock
- Start date
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I've moved this to the Wire Services forums, and made it "Sticky" so it will stay at the top of the list.
If you have a Skimmer to add to our collection, please reply to this thread. We can build a reference list for all real florists to check.
If you have a Skimmer to add to our collection, please reply to this thread. We can build a reference list for all real florists to check.
Rock: I told Teleflora about this 2 months ago and again last week. I am in Etobicoke and when you type "Teleflora Etobicoke" into a search engine you get "Simon says Roses", a florist in Victoria B.C. because Simon lists all the Teleflora members and their cities ON HIS WEBSITE. The search engine goes directly there! This guy knows what he is doing!
We are seeing more and more of our "local" orders...that is orders originating from people and businesses located in Etobicoke coming to us via FTD or TF from an internet order-gatherer on the other side of the world.... so we no longer get paid 100% for the order but 73%. We are quickly losing the balance between "local" and "incoming" orders that we need to enable us to fill the FTD and TF orders. And now both the wire services are into this game big-time with ads in the LOCAL yellow pages. Why don't they realize that they are self-destructing by doing this? We simple florists cannot stay in business if every order gets a 27% discount. ( And how about the costs for the technology to send out and receive these discounted orders?? Wow!! I can do it for 7 cents a minute by phone! ) No wonder so many flowers are being sold in alternate locations where they don't have to factor this discount into their markup!
We are seeing more and more of our "local" orders...that is orders originating from people and businesses located in Etobicoke coming to us via FTD or TF from an internet order-gatherer on the other side of the world.... so we no longer get paid 100% for the order but 73%. We are quickly losing the balance between "local" and "incoming" orders that we need to enable us to fill the FTD and TF orders. And now both the wire services are into this game big-time with ads in the LOCAL yellow pages. Why don't they realize that they are self-destructing by doing this? We simple florists cannot stay in business if every order gets a 27% discount. ( And how about the costs for the technology to send out and receive these discounted orders?? Wow!! I can do it for 7 cents a minute by phone! ) No wonder so many flowers are being sold in alternate locations where they don't have to factor this discount into their markup!
Rhonda
Well-Known Member
Lists of "order gatherers"
I know for myself, I would appreciate a list of the order gatherers. I know it changes with additions and deletions almost every week but personally, I don't like filling for gatherers for a discounted price and if I know who they are, I'll hit them for a price change if I can connect the name with someone with minimums showing as $100 or similar. I rarely fill an 800 Flowers order without a price change and ask for suitable substitution.
Anyone get one of their "Fright Flowers" orders?
I know for myself, I would appreciate a list of the order gatherers. I know it changes with additions and deletions almost every week but personally, I don't like filling for gatherers for a discounted price and if I know who they are, I'll hit them for a price change if I can connect the name with someone with minimums showing as $100 or similar. I rarely fill an 800 Flowers order without a price change and ask for suitable substitution.
Anyone get one of their "Fright Flowers" orders?
Rhonda: The ones that really bother me are the "real" florists like several here in Ontario I won't name who manipulate the internet to give the surfers the impression they are in every town in North America to steal the local orders from the local florists and forward them back at 73%. I think the consumer has the right to know if his order is going to end up in the fillers shop with 100% of the money attached or just 73%. Any fool knows which secenario is better!!
These shops are building huge businesses based upon turning orders from 100% to 73% and both wire services are part of the plan both through their rebate programs and through their marketing companines. BUT THIS WILL RUIN THE FLOWER BUSINESS IN THE END. What do you do if 75% of your orders have a 27% discount?
To me that is the point... this business is on a suicide course right now because some people want to get rich and don't care if that ultimately ruins the very business they are in. As long as they get their profits NOW everything is O.K. It's like Big Business meets Mom and Pop. Perhaps not filling for the gatherers is an answer. So far I have not made that decision...I still fill them all because times are tough. But as the balance keeps shifting towards all orders getting a 27% discount I know I will have to change or leave.
These shops are building huge businesses based upon turning orders from 100% to 73% and both wire services are part of the plan both through their rebate programs and through their marketing companines. BUT THIS WILL RUIN THE FLOWER BUSINESS IN THE END. What do you do if 75% of your orders have a 27% discount?
To me that is the point... this business is on a suicide course right now because some people want to get rich and don't care if that ultimately ruins the very business they are in. As long as they get their profits NOW everything is O.K. It's like Big Business meets Mom and Pop. Perhaps not filling for the gatherers is an answer. So far I have not made that decision...I still fill them all because times are tough. But as the balance keeps shifting towards all orders getting a 27% discount I know I will have to change or leave.
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
Good point Paul...
Both of the BIG2, are out to "gather" as many orders as they can, "they" say, to keep orders in "their" systems...
But what they do not realize, to some extent, that in reality its OUR system....just alot of florists do not, or can not, say NO ! There is always someone that will fill an order. And thats what they rely on....
I test my city every few months...I go out to sites, and place orders for items, that are listed, below MY minimums, for delivery here in town, to see who will fill them. My last, did not get filled at all, and that would have been over 30 bucks on my CC...so perhaps MY city is starting to listen to me...maybe...
Back to your point...NO florist can survive filling orders discounted by 27-30% for very long, even if they have a similar number of outgoing orders they are getting 20% on, since they are still losing 10%. 10% profit would be a fair %, and ya could survive on that...but they are not getting it.
Sadly, it will take some time, before enough folks are burned out enough to say no more, and then, and only then will the tide change back to the filling florist....
I have been an advocate of a change in the percentages, I feel that 10% for the sender is fair, and thats comming form someone that send 14 or more to every one I get in... but for the good of the industry, that is what it is going to take sometime in the future, to keep shops profitable, so they are there to fill...
Likewise, I feel there is a growing number, that will continue to grow, of consumers that will go direct...via the internet, so any florist without a website is probably losing business, that could be gained, or even taken away from the BIG2...someone searches, finds no local florist, so they go to the DOTS and place a discounted order....
I have in the last few weeks seen a rather regular increase in web/direct phone call orders, and can only hope it will continue into the Holiday season....
All my best.....
Both of the BIG2, are out to "gather" as many orders as they can, "they" say, to keep orders in "their" systems...
But what they do not realize, to some extent, that in reality its OUR system....just alot of florists do not, or can not, say NO ! There is always someone that will fill an order. And thats what they rely on....
I test my city every few months...I go out to sites, and place orders for items, that are listed, below MY minimums, for delivery here in town, to see who will fill them. My last, did not get filled at all, and that would have been over 30 bucks on my CC...so perhaps MY city is starting to listen to me...maybe...
Back to your point...NO florist can survive filling orders discounted by 27-30% for very long, even if they have a similar number of outgoing orders they are getting 20% on, since they are still losing 10%. 10% profit would be a fair %, and ya could survive on that...but they are not getting it.
Sadly, it will take some time, before enough folks are burned out enough to say no more, and then, and only then will the tide change back to the filling florist....
I have been an advocate of a change in the percentages, I feel that 10% for the sender is fair, and thats comming form someone that send 14 or more to every one I get in... but for the good of the industry, that is what it is going to take sometime in the future, to keep shops profitable, so they are there to fill...
Likewise, I feel there is a growing number, that will continue to grow, of consumers that will go direct...via the internet, so any florist without a website is probably losing business, that could be gained, or even taken away from the BIG2...someone searches, finds no local florist, so they go to the DOTS and place a discounted order....
I have in the last few weeks seen a rather regular increase in web/direct phone call orders, and can only hope it will continue into the Holiday season....
All my best.....
The urgent point in what you have just said is that the consumer goes onto the internet to find a shop in the city he chooses, and is TRICKED into thinking he has found one in that city. In fact, he might be on, for example,"Simon Says Roses", 3000 miles away from the destination he chose. You might argue that if the consumer is very careful and reads everything, he "should" know whether the site is actually where he thinks it is, but my point is that so many sites are set up deliberately to fool the flower-buyer into thinking they have reached the desitnation city. Or to be kinder I could say to "attract" ALL orders and use FTD or TF to fill the ones out of their area. (try out "Teleflora Etobicoke" in Google and see what happens...top 2 entries are from Simon says roses in Victoria BC ...and note one link there is "etobicoke roses")
In my opinion it is very simple...
THE CONSUMER HAS A RIGHT TO KNOW IF THE ORDER FILLER WILL GET 100% PAYMENT OR 73% PAYMENT. Period.
In my opinion it is very simple...
THE CONSUMER HAS A RIGHT TO KNOW IF THE ORDER FILLER WILL GET 100% PAYMENT OR 73% PAYMENT. Period.
As tough as it is to survive in this business , we have already made the choice not to fill any orders from the skimmers or dot.coms. It has made for less work , BUT an increase in profits. Unlike Boss, we live in an area where most of our young have emigrated to somewhere else, so we get a lot of incoming orders some where around 20 to 1 outgoing and about 6-7 to 1, teleflora over FTD. We are really trying hard to justify the need for our continuing with FTD .
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
Physical addresses
Crap...we can't even get the Yellow Pages to do that...no way on the internet...
I to, think its a problem...and like you mentioned, the only recourse is...TRIAGE...
Crap...we can't even get the Yellow Pages to do that...no way on the internet...
I to, think its a problem...and like you mentioned, the only recourse is...TRIAGE...
So...let's think outside the box....!
So I guess "the box" is "there is no way this will change" and to think outside the box would be "I am not going to accept that this will not change, so what can I do to help make change happen?" I believe that internet (and yellow page) hocus-pocus (trying to pass your store or 'order gathering business' off as being located in a city it is not located in) will ruin the retail flower business ((and a lot of honest people who do not try to do this)) in the process...so what can I do to step outside being part of the problem and becoming part of the solution?
Geez.....I just got my answer.... stop filling those orders would be one good way. Now if I could just get my kids out of university and out of the house I might find the courage to put my money where my mouth is. Or...if I keep thinking about it... I just might start to change the way I have been thinking up to now and join all those who are already " dis-abling" the perpetrators of this kind of deception by not filling their orders. Moving from being part of the problem to being part of the solution is aways a good thing.
O.K. so I think I am starting to think outside the box. I love this business and all the hard-working people in it and I know we are all at risk right now. I know I contribute to the problem every time I accept and fill one of these orders for a 1) non-florist or 2)a real florist who pretends to be located everywhere. I know I could start by eliminating all the orders I obviously will not make a profit on (the low $ ones). That would be painless. Maybe if I start with the painless part I could move on.....So where's the list of the internet/yellow page deceivers?
So I guess "the box" is "there is no way this will change" and to think outside the box would be "I am not going to accept that this will not change, so what can I do to help make change happen?" I believe that internet (and yellow page) hocus-pocus (trying to pass your store or 'order gathering business' off as being located in a city it is not located in) will ruin the retail flower business ((and a lot of honest people who do not try to do this)) in the process...so what can I do to step outside being part of the problem and becoming part of the solution?
Geez.....I just got my answer.... stop filling those orders would be one good way. Now if I could just get my kids out of university and out of the house I might find the courage to put my money where my mouth is. Or...if I keep thinking about it... I just might start to change the way I have been thinking up to now and join all those who are already " dis-abling" the perpetrators of this kind of deception by not filling their orders. Moving from being part of the problem to being part of the solution is aways a good thing.
O.K. so I think I am starting to think outside the box. I love this business and all the hard-working people in it and I know we are all at risk right now. I know I contribute to the problem every time I accept and fill one of these orders for a 1) non-florist or 2)a real florist who pretends to be located everywhere. I know I could start by eliminating all the orders I obviously will not make a profit on (the low $ ones). That would be painless. Maybe if I start with the painless part I could move on.....So where's the list of the internet/yellow page deceivers?
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
Change
Hey Paul... I did not mean to imply, there is "No" way this will change, rather that it will take a long time for it to do so...
I truely feel, that the CONsumer is getting smarter, and paying more attention to what the purchase, both from the YPs and on the net....
In my city there were national order gatherers, Karins "Flowers sent today.com", outa Vienna, VA, was one, they are now GONE, and their full page ad too... I can only assume there was not enough biz to keep them in my book....
I really feel it will change back to the local florist, as more and more folks feel the sense of community, that seems to be growing, and those that can ride out the next year or two, will survive and be better for the experience....
I don't know about your area, but 15 miles from me, there is a city, pop. around 40K, with over 20 flower shops...more than half, are in trouble, 8 are for sale, 5 are planning to close after Christmas. This over satturation too, has been part of the problem, longer than the internet, and the "Gatherers".
We talk about educating our customers, but, I feel, and I try to do this, is that the only way to take our industry back, is to educate our competitors as to the reality on the industry as well.
THere was a shop here in my city, that wanted all the incoming orders she could get, and still has her minimum set at $15.00 including delivery. She had no idea that she made nothing on those orders until it was explained....
Your's for trying to make a difference, I remain...
BOSS
Hey Paul... I did not mean to imply, there is "No" way this will change, rather that it will take a long time for it to do so...
I truely feel, that the CONsumer is getting smarter, and paying more attention to what the purchase, both from the YPs and on the net....
In my city there were national order gatherers, Karins "Flowers sent today.com", outa Vienna, VA, was one, they are now GONE, and their full page ad too... I can only assume there was not enough biz to keep them in my book....
I really feel it will change back to the local florist, as more and more folks feel the sense of community, that seems to be growing, and those that can ride out the next year or two, will survive and be better for the experience....
I don't know about your area, but 15 miles from me, there is a city, pop. around 40K, with over 20 flower shops...more than half, are in trouble, 8 are for sale, 5 are planning to close after Christmas. This over satturation too, has been part of the problem, longer than the internet, and the "Gatherers".
We talk about educating our customers, but, I feel, and I try to do this, is that the only way to take our industry back, is to educate our competitors as to the reality on the industry as well.
THere was a shop here in my city, that wanted all the incoming orders she could get, and still has her minimum set at $15.00 including delivery. She had no idea that she made nothing on those orders until it was explained....
Your's for trying to make a difference, I remain...
BOSS
part of the solution
It is unfortunate that we all (true florists) can't get together and then take aim at some of our suppliers who also sell for less to the big box stores , grocers ,etc.. and cut them off at the knees as well. If they want that market as their source of income , maybe we should stop helping them to subsidize by paying higher prices for the same products. This would help eliminate the profitability of flowers as an impulse sideline for the big stores and force them to import direct and have to have facilities and people who know how to deal with flowers. That would go a long way in evening the playing field.
It is unfortunate that we all (true florists) can't get together and then take aim at some of our suppliers who also sell for less to the big box stores , grocers ,etc.. and cut them off at the knees as well. If they want that market as their source of income , maybe we should stop helping them to subsidize by paying higher prices for the same products. This would help eliminate the profitability of flowers as an impulse sideline for the big stores and force them to import direct and have to have facilities and people who know how to deal with flowers. That would go a long way in evening the playing field.
A rep from a major hardgoods wholesaler was in our store yesterday. We typically spend a few thou a month on supplies from them - but he wanted us to carry their own line of arrangements / containers. We told him flat out - no. We don't want to carry a line of products that people see in non-floral stores.
He was very good about it - understood our position, and wanted us to know that as a policy, all their customers pay the same price - grocery store, dollar store, florist.
Atleast this is a start. I'm tired of seeing product at Home Depot and Loblaws that is cheaper that I pay wholesale.
He was very good about it - understood our position, and wanted us to know that as a policy, all their customers pay the same price - grocery store, dollar store, florist.
Atleast this is a start. I'm tired of seeing product at Home Depot and Loblaws that is cheaper that I pay wholesale.
Did you tell him to stop blowing smoke up your butt, we all know that the more you buy , the better the deal you get from most suppliers , including FTD and Teleflora. As a small outfit I squeeze as good a price out every salesman that I deal with , but I'm not naive , I know tha bigger volume outfits get the volume discounts,
especially the supermarkets etc..
especially the supermarkets etc..
Yes, that's true ... but we get volume discounts as well. Most of us do the same for our customers.
The grocery stores get the same discounts we do. Can't fault the wholesaler for that.
The grocery stores get the same discounts we do. Can't fault the wholesaler for that.
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
Discounts....
I concur...I too get volume discounts, but then again, many times, I buy case lots, that will last me months just to get the discounted price...
Like Oasis, 20 cases at a time, vases, 50 cases asst...
I feel that if I am going to buy this way, I deserve a break, over the (and we do have some here) florist, that wants a half case...
I must say, MY main LOCAL wholesaler, Saginaw Valley Flower Exchange, does it right...NO crafters, NO selling to the public, NO selling to grocers...in fact he even pays to run generic flower ads at holidays, AND in the summer...
Thanks Ken, ya do go above and beyond....
mark
I concur...I too get volume discounts, but then again, many times, I buy case lots, that will last me months just to get the discounted price...
Like Oasis, 20 cases at a time, vases, 50 cases asst...
I feel that if I am going to buy this way, I deserve a break, over the (and we do have some here) florist, that wants a half case...
I must say, MY main LOCAL wholesaler, Saginaw Valley Flower Exchange, does it right...NO crafters, NO selling to the public, NO selling to grocers...in fact he even pays to run generic flower ads at holidays, AND in the summer...
Thanks Ken, ya do go above and beyond....
mark
I wish all our suppliers were the same , unfortunately they're not.
One even had the nerve to leave supplies for the supermarket on my doorstep , only once.
One even had the nerve to leave supplies for the supermarket on my doorstep , only once.
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
That takes balls....
It would only happen once here too....
Sadly, there are many wholesalers that do not seem to understand our plight, and also sadly, they do not realize that if we die out, they will not be able to survive on the discounters alone...
I wonder how many florists, take the time to go to lunch with their wholesalers and take about the industry from our side ??
Likewise with funeral directors...we feel we have it bad, but a recent article in the Michigan Floral Assoc mag, regarding sympathy work and its decline, points out that funeral homes are suffering way more than we are, as as many as 44% of folks choose cremation over the typical funeral...yes it cuts us too, but the FHs are really getting hit hard in some parts of the country, especially the mid-south...in Michigan 22% are cremated as opposed to very few, 15-20 years ago...no top of the line casket, no vault...no limo rental...
I have found, that by discussing my plight whith bot, the local funeral directors, and my wholesalers, and working together for BOTH our goods, I am much better off...
It would only happen once here too....
Sadly, there are many wholesalers that do not seem to understand our plight, and also sadly, they do not realize that if we die out, they will not be able to survive on the discounters alone...
I wonder how many florists, take the time to go to lunch with their wholesalers and take about the industry from our side ??
Likewise with funeral directors...we feel we have it bad, but a recent article in the Michigan Floral Assoc mag, regarding sympathy work and its decline, points out that funeral homes are suffering way more than we are, as as many as 44% of folks choose cremation over the typical funeral...yes it cuts us too, but the FHs are really getting hit hard in some parts of the country, especially the mid-south...in Michigan 22% are cremated as opposed to very few, 15-20 years ago...no top of the line casket, no vault...no limo rental...
I have found, that by discussing my plight whith bot, the local funeral directors, and my wholesalers, and working together for BOTH our goods, I am much better off...
the answer to order gatherers is easy
Getting them to do something about it is not. The only reason that the skimmers can survive is because TF and FTD let them survive. If TF and FTD were to cut them off at the source there would be no more of them and ALL of the business would either go through either FTD or TF shops. Pretty easy. I still do not understand how TF and FTD can have in their membership contracts that you must have X amount of cooler space, X amount of display window, yadda yadda and yet they let the skimmers be members. In my opinion the skimmers are not nearly as guilty as FTD and TF are for letting this happen to the floral industry.
Jim
Getting them to do something about it is not. The only reason that the skimmers can survive is because TF and FTD let them survive. If TF and FTD were to cut them off at the source there would be no more of them and ALL of the business would either go through either FTD or TF shops. Pretty easy. I still do not understand how TF and FTD can have in their membership contracts that you must have X amount of cooler space, X amount of display window, yadda yadda and yet they let the skimmers be members. In my opinion the skimmers are not nearly as guilty as FTD and TF are for letting this happen to the floral industry.
Jim
Sadly you have hit the nail on the head
I really felt sad when I read your post, Jim, because I know you have skipped to the bottom line. I do not want to let it sink in that the wire services who once were working to expand the local florist's market, are now in effect working to put us out of business. Not that that is their direct intention...they would love to have us there to fill their orders at 73% less dues and fees and technology and labour costs....but in effect by helping to steal our local 100% business so they get a cut of that, too, that is what they are doing. Putting us out of business.
What retail business can give what amounts to about a "one-third off" discount on an ever-increasing number of their sales without having to increase their selling prices? How long will it be until roses at the florist will have to be $100 per dozen while the ones at Costco will be $9.99 ? So the florist becomes a "rip-off" artist in the eyes of the consumer.
No, FTD and Teleflora are no longer there for the benefit of the Florist. They are there for their own survival. Geez, for us old-timers that is a whole new way of thinking... and to be honest it hurts! It feels like an old friend has stabbed me in the back. And isn't that exactly what is happening?
I really felt sad when I read your post, Jim, because I know you have skipped to the bottom line. I do not want to let it sink in that the wire services who once were working to expand the local florist's market, are now in effect working to put us out of business. Not that that is their direct intention...they would love to have us there to fill their orders at 73% less dues and fees and technology and labour costs....but in effect by helping to steal our local 100% business so they get a cut of that, too, that is what they are doing. Putting us out of business.
What retail business can give what amounts to about a "one-third off" discount on an ever-increasing number of their sales without having to increase their selling prices? How long will it be until roses at the florist will have to be $100 per dozen while the ones at Costco will be $9.99 ? So the florist becomes a "rip-off" artist in the eyes of the consumer.
No, FTD and Teleflora are no longer there for the benefit of the Florist. They are there for their own survival. Geez, for us old-timers that is a whole new way of thinking... and to be honest it hurts! It feels like an old friend has stabbed me in the back. And isn't that exactly what is happening?
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