Skimming?

[CHR]

An OG tired to place an order with our shop yesterday. It had been called in and entered into our system when I noticed it.

I compared the value of what was given to the price on their site, and the OG had deducted $11.99 from the price shown to the consumer. The description on each item says "$____ delivered" and I cannot find any mention of the $11.99 service fee on the site.

Since the order had been called in, I called them back to say they needed to find another shop. In speaking with their customer service guy (who I now believe was either a senior manager or higher) I mentioned that they value they sent was much lower than the price shown on the site and that I doubted they could find a florist who would fill it like the photo and deliver it for the price given.

He said, "You expect us to handle these orders for free? Ha!" and hung up on me.

Has anyone gotten a specific ruling from a WS about the undisclosed withholding of fees? Seems this lands smack in the area discussed by the FTC as being 'against the law'. OTOH, since there's a TF number, and the florist can see what was sold, by accepting it for the skimmed price, is it now fair game?

If the florist simply 'fills to value' by using less product, cheaper product, cheaper container, etc...the site has a substitution disclaimer:

The product photos shown on this website are only examples and for representational purposes only. The actual products that are delivered may not be exactly as pictured due to regional differences, inventory availability, and designer preferences.

In a complaint, they seem to be 'covered'.

This company is not the only OG using a one-price method and failing to pass on the full amount charged the consumer. I've seen B&M florists do it too and they basically say the same thing as that OG.

What do you think?

 

[RJD]

No matter ho wyou spin it, it smells like bait and switch. In the long run, people will buy more flowers if they think they're being treated fairly. Hiding service fees in prices, while technically legal with even the smallet font size, makes people think you're shady, and that reflects poorly on the entire industry.

I got a chance to bring up OGing with Tom Butler, and he said TF's position on keeping OGs in TF is that since these orders are being wired around anyway, TF wants to keep them in the TF network.

The last couple of days, the TF execs run when they see me coming.

 

[lori042499]

Most florists never tell their customers that there is a service charge, most don't give any customers a total at the end of a sale. Most florists charge a service charge for WO and have for many, many years some have a habit of explaining some don't. The service charge IMO is a necessary charge to provide a service which happens to be very expensive to belong to. A company that charges this service charge and then keeps and additional amount is skimming or a florist filling for less than the total minus delivery charge is skimming. Everything else is withing the rules. The sending florist acting as the agent has every right to charge for their service whether they sell flowers or not, but they have no right to collect 50.00 for flowers and delivery and keep any portion of that money.

In the past few years, because of the large numbers of dOG's and non-florist agents, I have adopted the full disclosure policy. I give every customer a run down of all the costs involved in wiring out flowers. I tell them that they can spend 40-50-60 on flowers and that there will be an added 5.00 local delivery which gets added onto what they choose for flowers and is sent to the filling florist and there is a 12.99 service charge and for that they get my gaurantee as well as the TF garauntee and that I will handle the order for them as their trusted agent. If they don't want to pay the 12.99, they can try their luck with the internet(of which I warn them it is very hard to tell who is and is not a real florist and they should make sure they are dealing with a real florist). I will give out a florists number if the customer is a really good customer or I know them well enough to know they really don't have the money and I feel bad. Other than that this is one of my incomes and I do not feel that I should do any of the work for people who do not want to pay. I pay for the service and need to get paid for that service in return.

 

[BOSS]

KEY word is "Service charge"....

Many of us have a service charge we collect that we do not pass onto the filling florist...as long as it's disclosed then it's not skimming.

**IF** they deduct the amount from the shown arrangement total them *perhaps* it would be considered skimming, but if they have a disclaimer in the fine print that states they will do this... I don't think it *qualifies* as **skimming** in the original sense of the word.

 

[lori042499]

An OG tired to place an order with our shop yesterday. It had been called in and entered into our system when I noticed it.

I compared the value of what was given to the price on their site, and the OG had deducted $11.99 from the price shown to the consumer. The description on each item says "$____ delivered" and I cannot find any mention of the $11.99 service fee on the site.

Since the order had been called in, I called them back to say they needed to find another shop. In speaking with their customer service guy (who I now believe was either a senior manager or higher) I mentioned that they value they sent was much lower than the price shown on the site and that I doubted they could find a florist who would fill it like the photo and deliver it for the price given.

He said, "You expect us to handle these orders for free? Ha!" and hung up on me.

Has anyone gotten a specific ruling from a WS about the undisclosed withholding of fees? Seems this lands smack in the area discussed by the FTC as being 'against the law'. OTOH, since there's a TF number, and the florist can see what was sold, by accepting it for the skimmed price, is it now fair game?

If the florist simply 'fills to value' by using less product, cheaper product, cheaper container, etc...the site has a substitution disclaimer:
In a complaint, they seem to be 'covered'.

This company is not the only OG using a one-price method and failing to pass on the full amount charged the consumer. I've seen B&M florists do it too and they basically say the same thing as that OG.

What do you think?

I would be curious to see a receipt from one of these places...It all depends on how it is itemized, I guess, but that is all protected info and very hard to get. It is definately slimey because this is how the customers get misinformed and disillusioned about flowers. I still know many flower shops that will ask a customer how much they want the arrangement to be and just send that amount to the florist full knnowing the florist will be taking out delievr and not tellig the customer that this will happen. It baffles me...

 

[CHR]

Here's the site.

All prices shown 'delivered'.

Each product shows the price and the words "includes delivery/service fees". Again, no disclosure of a specific $12 service charge.

They use both TF and FTD images and do very well in natural search for many cities. Each city has a separate sub-domain and is SEO'd better than 99% of local florists. They're #2 in Google for both florist in Los Angeles and florist in Chicago.

 

[Rhonda]

I believe the rule always was for both FTD & Teleflora:
A receipt must be given to the sender showing all charges including seperate listings for delivery charge and service charge (if your shop charges one) as well as sales tax if collected. Which always made me wonder if we had to show on our receipt to the sender the individual charges, why when we sent it out was there not a seperate line for delivery charge FOR the filling florist.
But then again, rules are rules (and both throw out the rules for the OG's)

 

[lori042499]

Here's the site.

All prices shown 'delivered'.

Each product shows the price and the words "includes delivery/service fees". Again, no disclosure of a specific $12 service charge.

They use both TF and FTD images and do very well in natural search for many cities. Each city has a separate sub-domain and is SEO'd better than 99% of local florists. They're #2 in Google for both florist in Los Angeles and florist in Chicago.

one that I looked up was daisy cheer TF58-3 it is priced on my website at 34.95. This is before delivery. The actual retail price on TF prcing software is 34.39. The wholesale cost is 8.34 and wholesale pluse markup is 27.52 with a 6.99 labor added on it is 34.51.This website is charging 44.99. This is short about a buck and the delivery charge for the local florist, but they will surely get people to send this out for them so the price they give the florist once they decide to do it the delivery is included and they are not lying that the delivery and service charge are included. They just have not told anyone what the delivery or service charge is. People do business everyday not questioning what they are paying for is it right? NO. But for all intensive purposes people are stupid and don't ask what they are paying for.


Now I would do this arrangement for the 34.99 they are giving. I get 25.46 after TF takes thier initial 27% after I use the materials I need to use I get 17.21 which goes toward all of my expenses rent, tf charges, electric, gas etc. If I get enough of these in a month I make money. I make it the hardest way possible but I make money....and that is what I care about me making money. I can not control all of the stupid people that make stupid decisions about how and where to spend their money. And I cannot wait around to teach them all that these people are evil. I will not pay for a service and lose money because I am stubborn and reject perfectly profitable arrangements. I will reject from companies I have had problems with though because they are not worth the headaches...

 

[lori042499]

http://anaheim-florists.flowerpetal.com/index.jsp?info=6

This is the about page of the agent in question...They are in no way even hiding that they are an agent. It says where they are and that they send the order to a qualified florist in Aneheim, CA...

You would have to really be not home not to know you are dealing with a broker. It all comes down to personal choice. Some florists have so much regular full local business that pays their bills, that florist may feel that they will and do sell everything in their shop at full value so why should I giv it away for a discount. For some the fact that we need to stock our stores and possibly throw some of it away this is a welcome way of using it and possibly getting a local customer..Long a shot as it is it definately helps for the flowers not to end up in the bucket...


I don't like what they are doing to our business as much as anyone else, but this is competition. Do you think a small furniture store likes that a big furniture can offer all kinds of huge incentives like free financing, free delivery etc fully knowing that it is built into their prices, but they cannot afford to tell all the public that if they just shopped with them they would get it cheaper...I doubt it. I am sure they hate it...

 

[lori042499]

Just one more thought on this....

I get just as frustrated with anyone with OG's. These are just my opinions on the question put forth. I believe that the fact that they exist is the WS's doing and the fact that they have different rules than your average florist. It is not the OG's fault, they are just doing business as long as they give all the monies collected to the filling florist and do not pose as local when in fact they aren't even a florist. Those are the two things that irk me...The fact that they out advertise us and out market us is our problem...They have gotten the OK to build a better mousetrap and they are catching more and more mice....

 

[Eric S]

I got a chance to bring up OGing with Tom Butler, and he said TF's position on keeping OGs in TF is that since these orders are being wired around anyway, TF wants to keep them in the TF network.

That really pisses me off.

 

[CHR]

one that I looked up was daisy cheer TF58-3 it is priced on my website at 34.95. This is before delivery. The actual retail price on TF prcing software is 34.39. The wholesale cost is 8.34 and wholesale pluse markup is 27.52 with a 6.99 labor added on it is 34.51.This website is charging 44.99.

Based on what I saw yesterday, you would receive $33 including delivery for that order. After commissions, clearinghouse fee & receiving fee, the shop will have $22.84 to work with, or about half of what the customer spent.

If you are willing to fill for OGs like this for far less than you would for your 100% paying local customers ($34.95 plus a $10 delivery charge) what else can I say? :dunno:

 

[goldfish]

Can any florist deliver the arrangement shown on their web with the price they are sending out?

If you can prove that the answer is NO, then their pictures are at least in violation of FTC rules concerning 'misleading ads.'

In addition, if you can prove that they knew or should have known that their pictures are misleading, then their e-commerce site is 'fraudulent' which is more serious than 'misleading.' Most web-hosting companies would be very pleased to know about it, if one of their clients is hosting a fraudulent site.

 

[PhillyPhlorist]

I got a chance to bring up OGing with Tom Butler, and he said TF's position on keeping OGs in TF is that since these orders are being wired around anyway, TF wants to keep them in the TF network.

The SAME spin you hear from FTD..."keep it in the network"...load of you know what...

If you do not disclose something - it's skimming and/or illegal. Wording is such a trap...this OG gets around it by saying the price includes all delivery and service fees. Problem is, J.Q. Customer doesn't see through it and equates the picture to the value listed - not even knowing those "fees"...

Sad.

- H.

 

[Kristine]

Based on what I saw yesterday, you would receive $33 including delivery for that order. After commissions, clearinghouse fee & receiving fee, the shop will have $22.84 to work with, or about half of what the customer spent.

If you are willing to fill for OGs like this for far less than you would for your 100% paying local customers ($34.95 plus a $10 delivery charge) what else can I say? :dunno:

What else can be said? not much, this just perpetuates the "flowers from a florist are too expensive".

 

[Villageman]

Villageman

and As long as shops fill for the Og's this will continue.

 

[bloomz]

Here I guess in an example of covering your ass with a disclosure

Pricing:
Prices shown below product images do not include our shipping and service fees, but may include a handling fee on florist delivered items.
Shown prices for florist delivered products may include a handling fee depending on the product, seasonal availability, market conditions, and delivery area. When applicable, this fee will be shown on the order preview page for the florist delivered items.

On the site you never see that deducted until the final last page - after you've put in the effort to fill out the order form. I guess that meets the term "disclosure" but I still won't fill their orders.

And this I found "curious"

If your florist delivered flowers were not delivered or attempted on the day that you requested, we may be able to credit back up to $10 for the inconvenience. (This does not include deliveries for Saturday or Sundays because service is not available in all areas on Saturday or Sundays.)
Due to the nature of florist delivered products, we are unable to cancel an order once it has already been sent out to a florist delivery. If you just placed an order and wish to cancel please call

 

[lori042499]

Based on what I saw yesterday, you would receive $33 including delivery for that order. After commissions, clearinghouse fee & receiving fee, the shop will have $22.84 to work with, or about half of what the customer spent.

If you are willing to fill for OGs like this for far less than you would for your 100% paying local customers ($34.95 plus a $10 delivery charge) what else can I say? :dunno:

It has been being done forever...You never got full price for wire ins. You have always been filling them for less than you would a local customer...It is how the system works...Nothing has changed other than the fact that they see what they get and it is alot harder to short change the incomings than it was years ago, if you were that type of florist.

 

[BOSS]

Each product shows the price and the words "includes delivery/service fees". Again, no disclosure of a specific $12 service charge.

In this case I would say it's skimming....

 

[bloomz]

I compared the value of what was given to the price on their site, and the OG had deducted $11.99 from the price shown to the consumer. The description on each item says "$____ delivered" and I cannot find any mention of the $11.99 service fee on the site.

Are you talking about Coast to Coast, Nationwide, Beneva, etc?