Skimming?

[Bigted]

Flowerpetal is a Chicago based OG. They started as a travel OG and moved into flowers. They are very good with their SEO activities. They do a ton of orders. They bought a defunct shop in Las Vegas as their supposed HQ.

As a general rule, they tend to be more up-and-up than most OGs. I am surprised about the hidden fee. I guess money makes you do strange things. We used to fill orders from them, but we stopped because the average order got too low.

As far as what the WS allow? Most of you know about my ongoing fight with Teleflora about flowershopping.com, who says they will assess additional fees, but you will never know how much they are, and don't worry it won't impact your arrangement. I complain every single month to Teleflora bigshots, and for the last 8 months they respond that they are working on it. Right.

 

[MYLORDS]

Why can order gatherers and even the wire services assess fees but not the filling florist? We are the ones manufacturing the product. Why are we going by the 'old rules' when wire services USED TO BE floral co-ops? We agreed to discount to each other thru a central clearing house, ie FTD, etc. Why don't we, as the manufacturer of a product that we pay marketers (FTD,TELE, etc.) to sell for us, control the price? Why are we letting our SERVICE PROVIDER, I repeat, service providers dictate our selling price? When old institutions are no longer relevant, they need to change or go away.
The new Florist.com compliments of FTD is more restrictive than ever. No subs, fill exactly to their numbers, not value etc. It's comparable to 1-800 flws Their whole system is a house of cards built on the foundation of independant shops. When we the manufacturers are replaced (?) the internet order takers will be thru. Please comment and advise. Robin mylordsfloral.com

 

[BBJ (Big Bad John)]

We are the ones manufacturing the product. Why are we going by the 'old rules' when wire services USED TO BE floral co-ops? We agreed to discount to each other thru a central clearing house, ie FTD, etc. Why don't we, as the manufacturer of a product that we pay marketers (FTD,TELE, etc.) to sell for us, control the price? Why are we letting our SERVICE PROVIDER, I repeat, service providers dictate our selling price?

Because we're stupid thats why.............there does not seem to be rules for senders anymore so why are we the fillers abiding by the old rules. Maybe it's time that we started a two tier pricing system, one for our retail customers and one for wire ins from order OG's.

 

[goldfish]

and As long as shops fill for the Og's this will continue.

And the question is: is it just OG's that are doing skimming? No real florists are doing this? I'm not sure.

I know for the fact that there is at least one florist in Long Island who is taking out 25% from every incoming order she receives. How do I know that? Because she told me I should do this to make money. Thank you very much.

I suspect there are many like her; there is a lot of monetary incentive to do the filler-side skimming with a minimal risk of getting caught. Everyone knows that "quality assurance program" is a joke.

Once we admit that many real florists (no one knows how many) might be doing the filler-side skimming, how do we know that these same florists are NOT skimming their outgoing orders? Every time I see an incoming order with an odd number like $54, my suspicion grows (wasn't this originally $60?)

Again, too much incentive, too little chance of getting caught. Even if they get caught, they can always blame the filling florist for screwing up.

I am very wary of any incoming order these days, whether it's from OGs or from a real florist I've never heard of. The only wire-ins I feel comfortable with are those from the florists we know.

The foundation of WS is mutual trust; but it's already, perhaps irreparably broken.

 

[BBJ (Big Bad John)]

Every time I see an incoming order with an odd number like $54, my suspicion grows (wasn't this originally $60?)

I would never look at an order that way, unless you know how much the sending florist adds for delivery........we always add 9.50 to any outgoing order for delivery so a $45 order from our shop would come to you as $54.50 and you're going to think I took $5.50 out of it when actually I gave you $9.50 for delivery of a $45. arrangement.
I know most og's send nothing for delivery an ftd says they include $5.00 but that only gets my driver and flowers into the van.......it doesn't allow him to start the van though much less turn the radio on!!!!!

 

[Queen of Weddings]

I know lots of shops who as well do this, for example , last week I was in a shop who had some really nice dish gardens, and so of course, I sent one to a friend in the area , the cost was 35.00 plus 6.95 for delivery and tax.5percent, Ok so today, I called that same shop to send the same item to a friend for a gift, When calling them, told them thank you for the great service that was done last week, want to order another one today , ok fine, They said , in store is that price but for today they only had 60.00 ones Ok fine, that will work, I will see it tonight when I get there, So them when I get there, the same darn one, and the shop left the receipt in an envelope for me, Whats up with that, oh well, So on the way home, I look at the receipt, well that DG cost 60.00 10.00 delivery What is up with that stuff? I paid AMX, So I called the shop, well we did the first one at one price, so we will have to look into it, Girls calls two minutes later: Sorry when the girl put the order in, she thought it was an FTD order, So sorry we can give you a credit on your next order, it was the same DG that I sent last week, no difference, So I guess from now on, I will take and fed-ex the darn things, Just didn't want to drive that far with it, and nicer when someone recieves a gift, Oh well live and learn, So nothing at this point and time surprises me, Darn so they are making really good money on so called incoming orders..Just think not an OG,

 

[bloomz]

And the question is: is it just OG's that are doing skimming? No real florists are doing this? I'm not sure.

I know for the fact that there is at least one florist in Long Island who is taking out 25% from every incoming order she receives. How do I know that? Because she told me I should do this to make money. Thank you very much.

I suspect there are many like her; there is a lot of monetary incentive to do the filler-side skimming with a minimal risk of getting caught. Everyone knows that "quality assurance program" is a joke.

Once we admit that many real florists (no one knows how many) might be doing the filler-side skimming, how do we know that these same florists are NOT skimming their outgoing orders? Every time I see an incoming order with an odd number like $54, my suspicion grows (wasn't this originally $60?)

Again, too much incentive, too little chance of getting caught. Even if they get caught, they can always blame the filling florist for screwing up.

I am very wary of any incoming order these days, whether it's from OGs or from a real florist I've never heard of. The only wire-ins I feel comfortable with are those from the florists we know.

The foundation of WS is mutual trust; but it's already, perhaps irreparably broken.

I was once told by an ex-wire service rep for both tftd that he thought 50% of shops perhaps skimmed incoming.

Every bit as serious of problem as skimming senders. Even stupider - since their name is on it!

 

[lori042499]

Why can order gatherers and even the wire services assess fees but not the filling florist? We are the ones manufacturing the product. Why are we going by the 'old rules' when wire services USED TO BE floral co-ops? We agreed to discount to each other thru a central clearing house, ie FTD, etc. Why don't we, as the manufacturer of a product that we pay marketers (FTD,TELE, etc.) to sell for us, control the price? Why are we letting our SERVICE PROVIDER, I repeat, service providers dictate our selling price? When old institutions are no longer relevant, they need to change or go away.
The new Florist.com compliments of FTD is more restrictive than ever. No subs, fill exactly to their numbers, not value etc. It's comparable to 1-800 flws Their whole system is a house of cards built on the foundation of independant shops. When we the manufacturers are replaced (?) the internet order takers will be thru. Please comment and advise. Robin mylordsfloral.com

You have the same control you always have. If you cannot fill a reciped arrangement at what it is given to you at, you can reject, ask for more money or lose. No one forces any florist to take orders they think they cannot make money on..The difference today is the fact that most orders come through as a recipe and not a mix arr with a value. Things have gotten more specific and when the items are listed one place for x amount and listed in another for y. Sometimes it gets hard to give the correct value regionally...

As for the WS and fillers charging, you try to get a group of florists organized enough to make headway in the department and then get the WS to change their model...It is very tough on both fronts..

 

[lori042499]

Because we're stupid thats why.............there does not seem to be rules for senders anymore so why are we the fillers abiding by the old rules. Maybe it's time that we started a two tier pricing system, one for our retail customers and one for wire ins from order OG's.

Lots of shops do this and get away with it for years and years. They take 20% off the top of the order and fill to value. The arrangements look similar but smaller. It is against the rules and your name goes on the arrangement sent. It can and is done all over..Not anymore correct than taking 10.00 out of the money slated for flowers above and beyond a service charge..

 

[lori042499]

And the question is: is it just OG's that are doing skimming? No real florists are doing this? I'm not sure.

I know for the fact that there is at least one florist in Long Island who is taking out 25% from every incoming order she receives. How do I know that? Because she told me I should do this to make money. Thank you very much.

I suspect there are many like her; there is a lot of monetary incentive to do the filler-side skimming with a minimal risk of getting caught. Everyone knows that "quality assurance program" is a joke.

Once we admit that many real florists (no one knows how many) might be doing the filler-side skimming, how do we know that these same florists are NOT skimming their outgoing orders? Every time I see an incoming order with an odd number like $54, my suspicion grows (wasn't this originally $60?)

Again, too much incentive, too little chance of getting caught. Even if they get caught, they can always blame the filling florist for screwing up.

I am very wary of any incoming order these days, whether it's from OGs or from a real florist I've never heard of. The only wire-ins I feel comfortable with are those from the florists we know.

The foundation of WS is mutual trust; but it's already, perhaps irreparably broken.

The difference between the two side of skimming is:

Skimming filling, while still wrong, was born out of necessity. As incomings rose and outgoing and local dropped it was the only way some florists felt they could keep their numbers in the red.

Skimming outgoing is made up from pure greed...There is no possible reason for taking the extra money out of these very lucrative orders other than that. They don't cost you crap to take or send out except for those giant advertising pages...

 

[sfox]

What is being left out

Today, there are plenty of florists skimming on incoming orders. They do this becuase they realize that they are not making money. Websites, like this one, reinforce the facts about losing money and allow them to justify their actions. Why is this happening? Because the wire services themselves have taken the little bit of profit there was and put it in their pockets.

In the old days, it happened but not to the degree as it does today. Why? Because back then belonging to FTD allowed you to send and recieve orders, but it also allow you access to FTD Branded Products. For those that belonged back when, you can recall that when FTD spent money advertising one of it's product, like the Pick Me Up Bouquet, FTD florists shops would see a big increase in phone requests and walk in customers demanding that product. That was good old cash sales into florists cash registers.

Today, the wire serivces are not able to make a florists cash register ring because they promote a product, but the focus of the ad is for the consumer to order that product using a wire service .CON website. Therefore many florists who still are demanding wire in orders feel that they are justified in skimming money in order to make a profit and at the same time realize that the wire services are more interested in collecting your monthly dues and in collecting all those extra fees rather than making sure the consumer is getting what they paid for.

I personally hate skimming, either by senders or fillers because it gives the whole industry a bad name, but it will go on as long as the wire services look at their florists as revenues streams rather then real partners whose only goal is to give the consumer a quality product.

 

[Bigted]

The difference between the two side of skimming is:

Skimming filling, while still wrong, was born out of necessity. As incomings rose and outgoing and local dropped it was the only way some florists felt they could keep their numbers in the red.

Skimming outgoing is made up from pure greed...There is no possible reason for taking the extra money out of these very lucrative orders other than that. They don't cost you crap to take or send out except for those giant advertising pages...

Lori, there really is no difference. A florist that fills an order but has to steal from the customer is no better than an OG that planned it from the start. It's still stealing. Or as they say in court "guilty with an explanation"

 

[lori042499]

Lori, there really is no difference. A florist that fills an order but has to steal from the customer is no better than an OG that planned it from the start. It's still stealing. Or as they say in court "guilty with an explanation"

Yes I agree with that. I do not condone it on either side of the bill. Just pointing out where each would happen and why. Usually the filling florists would not skim on the outgoing...

 

[RWK]

Although we know only to well that such a thing would never happen.......but if the Wire services changed their member rulings and eliminated the sending only option......that a sender has to also fill the orders....The dOG's would disappear almost overnight.

Unfortunately, dating all the way back to FTD's creation in 1910 and then when Teleflora began, they followed FTD's set-up......it always has been more profitable to send than to recieve.

 

[MYLORDS]

Cicular discussions

So we come back to our rub with Order Gatherers. We are in competition with them for sending orders. Why do we discount to them, again? We all need to rethink our agreements with the wire service providers. They are no longer floral co-ops! Robin

 

[RWK]

That is why our shop owner is considering dropping the wire services altogether......because of their support of the dOG's and their ever-increasing fees and their undercutting of our businesses.

The wire services are now a redundant aspect of our floral business. Before the emergence of the internet and the now widespread use of corporate and personal credit and debit cards.....the wire services were a necessary evil. Now, there simply is no good reason to belong to one. My store owner pointed out however, that at least we have a vehicle to facilitate international orders - handle different currencies, and to overcome language barriers......to which I pointed out that last year, I could count on one hand the number of International order we handled. To which he agreed.

 

[bloomz]

And with the internet Rick - it's pretty easy to place orders internationally anyway - and you'll find it cheaper and more profitable than international retrans.

Last year - 4 dozen roses to Singapore - FTD Retrans - $450

Found a Singapore florist and called him - he wanted $75 (delivered) - I gave him $100 and he emailed me a picture of the arrangement and it was very lovely with 70cm Red Roses arranged.

 

[RWK]

I know....That's why I say that the Wire services have become redundant and are no longer needed in today's marketplace. Somebody might argue about the neat containers......yeah---- right......and so darn expensive the average customer can't afford them. Take the TF cube vase.....if we bought from TF, retail price would have to be a minimum of 10 bucks.....we bought from a local supplier and are retailing the same size cube for 5 bucks.

 

[Queen of Weddings]

My op

I think that most customers don;t relize this, but I just helped a shop today, and they are FTD and they got a order for a dozen Gerbers in a clear vase for 39.95 well in there cooler the gerbs were 4.00 each so I asked them what they wanted me to do for this, : Well go ahead and make it, he orders regular from them, we get orders from him all the time,

WOW
Why aren't they marketing to get him in there door, and the answer was, it is a better value for him to order from them,

I almost fell over, they have been in business since the 60's , I am at loss for words on this one.

 

[lenwlod]

I think that most customers don;t relize this, but I just helped a shop today, and they are FTD and they got a order for a dozen Gerbers in a clear vase for 39.95 well in there cooler the gerbs were 4.00 each so I asked them what they wanted me to do for this, : Well go ahead and make it, he orders regular from them, we get orders from him all the time,

WOW
Why aren't they marketing to get him in there door, and the answer was, it is a better value for him to order from them,

I almost fell over, they have been in business since the 60's , I am at loss for words on this one.

Let me get this straight...The person sending the order placed it with FTD!? And they know who he is!? And they don't want to get him as THEIR customer!? If that is the case, yeah they are running a couple quarts low!

As most of us know, all those 39.95 arr and under are being promoted by the .con to build up their volume. Now we also know that none of us can make money on those filling them through a wire service. However if we could receive them at 100% or we were selling them directly out of our shops, no problem we could make a few bucks. As many have pointed out here on this board, we need to take ideas and marketing like this to beat the big guys at their own game. Because they ONLY can survive if they have someone to fill their orders. If we as a group say enough is enough, we could eliminate them, and all of us could end up with more in our pockets and most importantly have a SATISFIED consumer getting a 100% of what they paid for rather than having it skimmed at one end or the other.