Teleflora & AARP

[NicoleAtTF]

Let me add a more to what Mark just said. The fact remains that all the wire services drasticly under value the price of the arrangement so even before you rolled the delivery in the arrangement in most cases was not correctly priced based on what we pay per stem for the flowers to fill it and that by its self is a huge issue.

Wish this had popped up as I wrote my reply! This is the same sort of 'averaging' problem. We do our best to price bouquets in a way that is most fair to the most florists, meaning it won't be a perfect fit for everyone. We do our best to both create bouquets that will activate purchases and also be financially viable for as many florists as possible.

 

[BOSS]

Wish this had popped up as I wrote my reply! This is the same sort of 'averaging' problem. We do our best to price bouquets in a way that is most fair to the most florists, meaning it won't be a perfect fit for everyone. We do our best to both create bouquets that will activate purchases and also be financially viable for as many florists as possible.

I see the problem now. They're selling our stuff for the price they think we'll settle for without checking with us first...

Seems to me it would be better if they just connected consumers directly with the delivering florist...

/sarcasm

 

[kt4ye]

So, what I've learned is that about a year ago, the way bouquet prices were shown online changed. The service fee was rolled in to the overall bouquet price to be more streamlined for consumers. As a result, we also don't break out the value of the delivery fee when sending to shops. When any discount is made on Teleflora.com, Teleflora covers the difference between the bouquet value sent along to the florist and any monies discounted to the consumer. Since delivery fee is now part of the overall value of the bouquet, that's not displayed separately when sent to a shop but the money is included.

I hope that makes sense, I explained it the best I could with the short tutorial I was given this morning.

Hello Nicole...

I'm afraid you need to go back to your tutor and tutor him/her. I just went to the TF website to place a TEST order. The "service" charge of $13.99 is a separate line item. It has NOT been "rolled in."

I commend TF for changing the terminology. (It used to be, if I recall, called "service/delivery.") BUT I suspect that most TF customers, if asked, would assume that they are paying a $13.99 DELIVERY charge, when that amount is in fact pocketed by TF.

Mark is correct when he points out that the $7 (NOT $7.99) delivery charge NETS the florist just over $5. IF as TF has claimed, the nationwide "average" delivery charge is $7, then TF is asking the "average" member to subsidize every delivery by $2.

While I'm asking you to speak to your tutor, would you please ask him/her why it is that TF charges every North Carolina member NC sales tax on consumed goods and services but does NOT charge consumers NC sales tax on items destined for NC? I did not know that a merchant could pick and choose which taxes it wanted to pay!

All the best,

Bill

 

[NicoleAtTF]

Mark, it seems to me that a number of florists do appreciate the services they receive through Teleflora, including the fact that Teleflora has the ability to market on a large scale and allow florists to gain sales from these efforts. Unfortunately, this type of selling does require that we apply some sort of pricing to the items we sell on florists behalf.

I know there are many florists who would prefer to NOT gain orders through the wire service system, and I'm happy to say that every shop is free to make this decision based on their own business case. Unfortunately, it is true, we have to make some accommodations for the fact that we support a national business with florist partners in many different communities with many different needs. I think, in general, Teleflora does a very good job of this and we have managed to maintain a business structure in which all of these orders DO go to local florists and are not shipped in a box.

It's true, we're not perfect, but I think Teleflora provides services that many florists value and would not want to work without, whether those services are our role as an order gatherer on their behalf, whether it is as their point-of-sale system, whether we provide all of their shop marketing tools (and in some cases, all of the marketing)...

 

[steve]

Nichole This pricing issue is so much bigger then you realize. If the wire services do not fix this pricing and delivery issue then you will continue to lose florist because they go broke or simply walk away from the wire side of the business. If you do not have the end points to fill the orders then you yourself no longer have a business plain and simple

 

[lori042499]

Not to mention that the more orders that are directed at us at a discount the more broken our businesses become, the more we need to leave the wire services...If Tf and other ws companies insist on competeing against us, they will need to raise the prices up to where the discounted price is equal to what we would get at full price, our business models do not count for more than 15-20% of heavily discounted orders, but the more orders taken from us and sent back to us discounted is breaking our banks and leaving us with no choice but to make those hard decisions like dropping the WS...at some point it becomes a major problem...

 

[Dorothy]

All of the orders have the delivery charge figured into them....just like ftd and bloomnet....there is a 7.99(I think) delivery built into the prices on tf.com, the same reason most real local florists sell a 50.00 arrangement with their service fee and send that 50.00 along to me without a delivery fee...the florist just expects the delivery to come out of the total...poor customer just doesn't see it coming...at least with a website they can see what they are supposed to get...not just some imaginary fact and figure and hope for the best..

I understand what you're saying, Lori. However, when I was a consumer and went to TF's site to place a 'test' order, I was lured in by FREE DELIVERY. The arrangement was $40 and I chose the flowershop I wanted it sent to (my old shop). The florist received $40 for the arrangement BUT no additional money to cover the delivery.

Two problems:

1. If delivery is advertised as FREE to the consumer, that's fine, but somebody still has to pay for it! At least that's how I would feel as the filling florist. I don't care who owns/runs the website, if I, as a consumer, am looking at a product for $40, I expect to get that, not a $32 arrangement (because the florist had to deduct delivery first) and as the filling florist I WANT to create the product that the customer purchased to guarantee Customer Satisfaction. I don't get why there is so much confusion around this. And I don't get why any florist would just accept this.
2. My particular order, by the way, was sent from TF thru the Dove when the receiving florist's minimum order was $45. So, another question is: Why was it sent to the florist I chose in the first place when her minimum was clearly stated?

I know point #2 brings up a whole other issue, but it should also be looked at by florists and TF alike.

Lastly, why is pricing for delivery costs such a big issue? We all know, customers included, that most services are not free. TF has the ability to gather this information from its members and then average the amount that should always be included with every transmitted order, whether they collect that amount or not from "their" customer. This would take a simple survey in the U.S., UK and in Canada, and wherever else they want, and adjust their prices accordingly.

For the record, when I had a shop and sent orders to another florist I always charged our delivery fee ($9 at the time I sold) and added that on top of the arrangement because I simply did not want my customer to be disappointed in the end. So, my orders going out were rarely an even $40, $50, etc. At a glance the receiving florist could tell by the total ($49, $59, etc.) that I had in fact included a delivery amount in the order. If, by chance, the order was going to an area that required more $ the filling florist would contact me.

 

[Rhonda]

Case and point: I know of a shop that has a website through FTD and they show arrangements for $34.99 on that website. In their listings in the FTD directory and on the Merc disc, they show a $50.00 minimum. When questioned about the difference and why they wouldn't accept a wire in order for $34.99 + their local delivery charge, they said that in order to cover fees that the WS charges them they must maintain a $50 minimum. If I was a consumer and looked up that shop, picked a design then called my local florist to handle it for me (say I didn't own a credit card ~ and we have customers that don't), I would be one very PO'd consumer when I had to pay $50 for the same item their website shows as $34.99. This florist definitely compensates their wire in business with hidden "surcharges" to cover their wire service expenses.

Many, many more shops will do this to "pay" their WS fees........
So I'll get that $34.99 arrangement but I'll pay $50.00 for it if I send it as a wire order.

 

[Dorothy]

When I had a shop, I decided on a $45 min (including delivery) in wire directories because I got so darn tired of fishing back and forth because of the low-ball orders that kept getting sent (mostly from order gatherers, btw). Not to offset any wire service fees.

 

[CHERYL BAKIN]

Nicole:
FTC regulations require that all internet shopping sites CLEARLY state and describe all charges and fees as they relate to an order placed by a consumer. So, items purchased, delivery charges, service fees, sales taxes, special handling fees, etc must be clearly stated.

Many state laws, Pensylvania included, also require that all charges to a consumer making a purchase clearly state all charges.

So TF is in violation of both FEDERL AND MANDY STATE LAWS by rolling Delivery and Service fees into one lump item.

Further, Teleflora's own rules and regulations also state that the consumer must be charged separately for all delivery and service charges.....and that the full value of the delivery charge is to be passed on to the filling shop.

AGAIN, TF IS IN VIOLATION OF ITS OWN REGULATIONS.

Clearly, you collect 13.99 (or $15.99 or $17.99 -- depending on many factors) as a delivery and service fee -- not separating the parts out -- and you keep the whole amount -- without passing any legitimate delivery charge onto the filling shop.

We have tested this on the TF.com website many times.

Your claims that the pricing and the delivery charges of $7.00 are averages is just bogus. Every flowershop in any area of the country is charging $9.00 and up -- and has been for over 3 years!!!! This is the age of computers. These "averages" should be re-evaluated at least every 6 months, minimum.

The same re-evaluation applies to the pricing set for the product order. TF is so far off the mark in most of the pricing that it is really funny. and you wonder why you cannot get people to fill order any more.

Cheryl

 

[lori042499]

I agree with Cheryl....the pricing structure increases are rarely done and only done when they cannot get orders filled anymore or when the squaking gets unbearable....Pricing structures should be reevaluated at least once a year if not twice and the last time the delivery sent up it was just before the gas prices skyrocketed and our costs went up dramatically...TF should have at that time reevaluated in a crisis basis because if the huge jump in gas...I went from a 5.99 delivery to 7.99 in a few short months for a very local delivery....When I bought the biz, 4 short years ago the local delivery was set at 3.00, now most everyone around me is getting 9.99, I should be too, but have decided to keep my immediate local delivery lower and my further away deliveries higher...

I have had to cut down on my also served by towns due to not enough delivery collected by florists and WS gatherers, it was easier that making calls all day for more money....TF has a responsibility to keep on top of the price increases across the country more than every 5 years, I say stop creating 40 or 50 new web bouquets every 3 months and concentrate on making sure the bouquets are priced at a realistic amount and the delivery charges are on point....look through the TF book, not too many florists are charging 7.00 local delivery most are 9.99 and up...and the more discounted orders are taken from us and passed back through us the more we will be forced to go up on our prices...

Should any shop at any time lose all their 100% orders, They will need to up their flower prices to a 6.5X markup in order to make enough profit on flowers to make any type of profit, just imagine what would be sent out on a 34.99 order with that kind of mark up, it would be one stem of daisy in a budvase if that...but this is what will happen, florists will keep the minimums rising, the OGs will not be able to get their arrangements filled in most markets, they will continue to fail to deliver because they will be spending so much time in smaller markets just trying to place the order, the customers will get mad and frustrated and stop sendng flowers, period....all because the OGs say that the florists cannot deliver an arrangement for 34.99, which would be totally untrue, because we could if we were getting 100% of the original monies to begin with....again a catch 22....

 

[kt4ye]

Nicole:
FTC regulations require that all internet shopping sites CLEARLY state and describe all charges and fees as they relate to an order placed by a consumer. So, items purchased, delivery charges, service fees, sales taxes, special handling fees, etc must be clearly stated.

Many state laws, Pensylvania included, also require that all charges to a consumer making a purchase clearly state all charges.

Cheryl... I have heard this several times. But I have not seen a citation. Since you are dealing with questions of law, can you please provide links so others can see exactly what the FTC rules are?

So TF is in violation of both FEDERL AND MANDY STATE LAWS by rolling Delivery and Service fees into one lump item.

Further, Teleflora's own rules and regulations also state that the consumer must be charged separately for all delivery and service charges.....and that the full value of the delivery charge is to be passed on to the filling shop.

AGAIN, TF IS IN VIOLATION OF ITS OWN REGULATIONS.

Same question. Where is a link or quote that shows this to be in violation of TF rules?

I believe we all have an obligation, if we cry "FOUL" to be able to say exactly what rules/regulations are being broken. And we should be able to quote chapter and verse to back up our allegations.

If we cannot do so, then we risk being labeled as a group of folks that whimper, "It's not fair!" whenever something doesn't go our way.

All the best,

Bill

 

[sfox]

I agree with Cheryl....the pricing structure increases are rarely done and only done when they cannot get orders filled anymore or when the squaking gets unbearable....Pricing structures should be reevaluated at least once a year if not twice and the last time the delivery sent up it was just before the gas prices skyrocketed and our costs went up dramatically...TF should have at that time reevaluated in a crisis basis because if the huge jump in gas...I went from a 5.99 delivery to 7.99 in a few short months for a very local delivery....When I bought the biz, 4 short years ago the local delivery was set at 3.00, now most everyone around me is getting 9.99, I should be too, but have decided to keep my immediate local delivery lower and my further away deliveries higher...

I have had to cut down on my also served by towns due to not enough delivery collected by florists and WS gatherers, it was easier that making calls all day for more money....TF has a responsibility to keep on top of the price increases across the country more than every 5 years, I say stop creating 40 or 50 new web bouquets every 3 months and concentrate on making sure the bouquets are priced at a realistic amount and the delivery charges are on point....look through the TF book, not too many florists are charging 7.00 local delivery most are 9.99 and up...and the more discounted orders are taken from us and passed back through us the more we will be forced to go up on our prices...

Should any shop at any time lose all their 100% orders, They will need to up their flower prices to a 6.5X markup in order to make enough profit on flowers to make any type of profit, just imagine what would be sent out on a 34.99 order with that kind of mark up, it would be one stem of daisy in a budvase if that...but this is what will happen, florists will keep the minimums rising, the OGs will not be able to get their arrangements filled in most markets, they will continue to fail to deliver because they will be spending so much time in smaller markets just trying to place the order, the customers will get mad and frustrated and stop sendng flowers, period....all because the OGs say that the florists cannot deliver an arrangement for 34.99, which would be totally untrue, because we could if we were getting 100% of the original monies to begin with....again a catch 22....

Talk about missing the point! Who really cares how much they give you! The order should have been yours at 100%. So they raise theri selling price, you still only get 67% of that.

 

[CHERYL BAKIN]

Bill:
Digging for the FTC links -- this may take some time, since it has been a while since I had to site these.

The Teleflora citations you re after:

Go to your TF "Rules & Regulations: (It's the white pages in the middle of your TF selection guide). Start reading item # 8 -- especially # E.
(1 & 2 & 3) & sections 8 A - B - D ).

State laws vary somewhat by state - I wil try to pull up Pensylvania's as an example for you sometime next week.

(Sorry, I tried to pul this up on the TF website, and post it here. aparently the rules & regs are not on-line - at least not that I could find them.)
Cheryl

 

[Dorothy]

I got this from the teleflora.com website:

Sales Tax
Orders delivered to Oklahoma, Arkansas and Michigan are subject to sales tax. Orders placed from Arkansas and Oklahoma are also subject to sales tax. You will have an opportunity to review this amount before submitting your order.

Service Charge
A service fee of $14.99 USD is applied to all flower and plant orders delivered in the U.S. and Canada.

1. When a 100% order comes in to B.C., the customer (sender) pays all applicable taxes, so I don't get why ordering from an online company doesn't do this. I believe, tho, that on the wire statement the applicable taxes are charged to the florist?

2. That's a hefty service fee. So, again, why doesn't TF pass on the cost of delivery to the filling florist?

Added: when a florist in whatever province in Canada sends to another province, we have to collect and pay the applicable taxes, so this is nothing new.

 

[Flowerchatter03]

How many florists are willing to put on their own website that they will provide 20% off to AARP members? Perhaps even get a press release out saying so.

If TF can do it, there is no reason why we can't and get these customer to call us directly.

All of us have the ability to match every "offer" given by wires. You can even blog about it and explain how they would be saving even more money by buying direct as there is no "fee" on top of the order. Only a real deliver charge that goes to keep a vehicle and gas in it.

Just a thought.

 

[suzabella]

This is a perfect example of corporate double talk, especially the part about "drive additional orders". These will not be additional orders in the purest sense of it. The orders will actually be orders that would have gone to a florist in the first place, but now will go to a florist discounted.

The winner in this AARP deal is Teleflora. The loser is the florist. The will see their core customer market be cut into and have the priviledge of paying dues and fees to see their very own orders come to them discounted

Teleflora is really great. Make the florist pay to get order from the core consumer and accept a discounted on top of it.

I got so fed up with complaining about the ws and working under their thumb that I did something really profound. I fired them all. My customers now get what they ordered, they know what the del. charge is, and orders are filled to value. Every order is custom made. There are no more TF, FTD or 1800 flowers by number that must be copied. My work has my name written all over it. My containers are from my antiques shop, local artisans and are truly one of a kind. You don't need the ws to send out an order, you have the internet. I am actually busier with incoming than I was before they got the pink slip. I have an excellent product. I depend only on me and what I put into my craft. I will not be under the thumb of a ws anymore. And guess what, I get to keep the money. Just do the math. The ws are bandits. They already get too much out of an order and now with AARP you get even less. I'm happier, my family doesn't hear me complain and my customers are totally satisfied.

 

[kt4ye]

Bill:
Digging for the FTC links -- this may take some time, since it has been a while since I had to site these.

The Teleflora citations you re after:

Go to your TF "Rules & Regulations: (It's the white pages in the middle of your TF selection guide). Start reading item # 8 -- especially # E.
(1 & 2 & 3) & sections 8 A - B - D ).

State laws vary somewhat by state - I wil try to pull up Pensylvania's as an example for you sometime next week.

(Sorry, I tried to pul this up on the TF website, and post it here. aparently the rules & regs are not on-line - at least not that I could find them.)
Cheryl

I appreciate your effort, Cheryl.

However, I read the TF rules differently. E (1) requires the sending member to collect any delivery charge and to transmit the full amount including delivery -- but not including any service charges -- to the receiving member. I have found nothing that requires the sending member to communicate the amount of the delivery charge to the customer.

So, as I read it, any member that wants to "bury" the delivery charge in with the product price is free to do so. [You and I would -- I believe -- agree that this is both deceptive and probably unethical. But it "ain't" against the TF rules.]

Also, (and contrary to what many of us might wish!) the sending member is not expected to send any of the service charge to the receiving member.

There IS what appears to be a "grey area" with regard to "special services rendered" such as expedited delivery. We know that many OGs will add additional fees for AM delivery, Saturday delivery etc. Those fees are seldom (never?) passed on to the receiving member. According to TF, the sending member may [my emphasis] use the special service fee to cover any special service charge assessed by the receiving member.

IOW the OG is under no obligation to pass those special service fees on to the receiving member even if the receiving member requests them!

THAT is an area that, in my NTBHO should be rectified by TF requiring the sending member to pass those fees on to the receiving member along with an explanation of what they are.

I look forward to learning about your FTC research. Naturally, if FTC requires action that is at variance with TF (or ft800) rules , then the FTC rules would most likely supercede.

Thanks again for your research. (BTW the TF rules are in the TF RESOURCE GUIDE. I spent some delightful time thumbing through selection guides trying to find the sections you mentioned before I "figgered" it out!)

All the best,

Bill

 

[BOSS]

BOSS's Quote of the day!

The ws are bandits.

You've been reading my rant's I see