Wire Charge & Minimum

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No Mikey I'm not hitting on you...I'm trying to quit that!

And I'm also trying to stay away from slamming other peoples ways of increasing business. I am just letting everyone know how "I" think... and I have a lot of concerns about a business where the profit margins are shrinking and people counter that by cutting prices and doing more for the customer but asking for less in return. I do not think it is wise.

Once someone walks into the shop up the street from you (I assume there is one) and says you will give him free sending....is he likely to say "well go back to Mikey and let him do it for you?" You now have 2 stores offering free sending and so on and so on. So now everyone in Dundas sends for free and your competitor decides to offer free delivery or free designing or whatever. How is that going to help the florists in Dundas?

Doing what you have to is one approach. I was hoping there might be other solutions that are more industry-friendly. Here in Toronto there is a Korean flower store on every corner so we florists sell service. Note the word "sell". The funeral business has gone to the cancer society and the weddings go to the basement Bettys. If florists are going to willingly give up charging for the services they still do there is not much left to mark up.

In the near future we are going to see a lot of problems because the "fillers" of incoming wire orders are beginning to wake up to the fact that these orders are netting less and less profit as the costs of membership, technology and the personnel to run them go through the roof. More and more of your "local to local" orders
are being caught up by an order gatherer on the internet in another city and it comes in to you at 72% instead of the 100% you would have normally recovered.

I do not expect ANYONE to listen to me, but it's nice to keep the hope alive that we will all be able to find a way to keep this business thriving. We long ago reached the limit of free samples we can offer and still pay the rent. IMHO
 
There are a couple of different reasons that I do not charge a sending fee. For one, the shop down the street does charge that fee and I have picked up a rather large customer base because of the fact that I don't charge it and my customers feel that I am not a "rip off" their words not mine. Secondly, before I ever got into the flower business I stopped sending flowers becuase it was so expensive to send them. I'm not talking about the cost of the flowers, I'm talking about the fees associated with sending flowers. We all complain about the fees that FTD and TF charge, well let's look at our own house before we knock others.
I for one think that charging a fee for sending is a consumer rip off. That is my opinion, we get a 20% commission off of the order as it is, that suits me just fine. But where many florists complain about the fact that you can't make money from filling orders etc. I am doing quite well with the wire service orders. I use the "service" of sending as just that, a service. Because of this service I have several corporate accounts now that do all of there sending through me and as a result I also do all of there local work. I personally have a problem with the fact that many of the orders that come through for filling, because of the fees associtated with sending, commissions etc. the send florist is making more money off of them than the filling florist is.
If anything is going to kill this industry it is going to be the florists themselves for not moving into the current century.
We must be competitive. I make money on fill orders. Whether anyone believes that or not, I really don't care. I don't make 70% profit on them, but I do make money. I guess that my view on this business is built more from my mainstream retail background then it is from the "old quard" florist background. I am accustomed to doing business where we were thrilled if we could turn in a 15% EBITDA.
One of the general comments at the FTD meeting, which had nothing to do with FTD, it was a discussion between the florists at lunch, was that their business was down or flat at Christmas.
We had a huge Christmas and so far January is beating all expectations. The shop down the street is probably going to be going out of business soon and the next nearest shop has been kicked out of TF and is no longer on the merc system so I don't think they are going to be around long. So that would leave one to believe that we are doing something right:rolleyes:

Jim
 
Paul..I WOULD LOVE IT...

for EVERY SHOP in DUNDAS, to move into the 21st Century, and drop no longer warranted "costs" to the consumer!!
IF DUNDAS were to adopt a "send free zone", EVERY shop could experience the growth that comes naturally with competition!!
Where YOU and I are wayyy ahead of the scale, is that "WE GET IT" whether in favour of fees or no fees, the point being, we are AWARE of things we NEED to do to grow and prosper!!
So, except for the shops and shop owners that actually participate in shows, conventions,and industry meetings, that UNDERSTAND that this industry is fundamentally changing...DO YOU REALLY THINK that we need to worry about the "other" shops in DUNDAS catching on??
Here, we "challenge" our challenges, and our knowledge,and our continuing growth...you think I might have to worry about THAT from other shops around me??
Ummmm...NO...few if any, get involved with INSIDE the industry semantics, and hopefully, BEFORE they notice the switch to the 21st century, I'll have their business!!
I STRIVE TO BE BETTER...all the time. Flowers are flowers, how you present their "worth" to the consumer will stand you out from the crowd!!
Mike:D
 
Well Jim & Mike

I hear what you are saying and I agree with some of your points, but overall I still disagree with the direction you are taking. There even are a few points that were made (wire services' charges) I would like to argue about, but there's no point to that... we just disagree. Boss also has said that no-fee sending has worked for him so there has to be some merit in it if all the big boys find it beneficial to their businesses.
Now as for bringing your business into the 21st century.....to me that looks like putting up a killer website and fooling people into thinking they are ordering from a florist located in every city in North America....making FTD & TF get richer along with you. That is the "modern" florist's approach that I see everywhere. If that is progress I prefer the past.
Yesterday an orthodontist came in to the shop, and was upset I wanted 7.50 for casa blancas I paid 3.50 for. He said the store down the street sells them for 4.50. He was not lying, they do sell them for that. I wonder if they send FTD orders out free too? But this orthodontist (got any kids?) thought I was ripping HIM off!! Stop the world, I want to get off.
 
Originally posted by jbarb
We all complain about the fees that FTD and TF charge, well let's look at our own house before we knock others.
Jim
Click to expand...

Well what amazes me is this, FTD and TF know you guys and gals will pay more if they ask it. Do you hear many people complaining about the new directory charge? Not really. Why, because Florists will go along and pay more. Same reason why some people pay more to process credit cards than others, because they don't fight for it. It reminds me of serveral years ago, when I wanted a lower rate for processing cards, the bank wasn't willing to give it to me, I said, FINE, I'll go elsewhere to where the rate is better and withdraw my accounts along with it, took them all of 20 seconds to give me the rate I wanted. Florists today have a number of choices, they can continue to pay high fees as the other two will certainly not mind charging more, or you can look for a cheaper option and PAY way less and show them you're not trapped by their bloated fees, TF and FTD remind me of Governments in the way they operate, they won't reform their methods untill they are forced to by the public (the Florists in this case). The Florists out there need to start SCREAMING LOUDLY and in MASS. Make your voices heard. If they won't lower their fee's then it's clearly the time to change and go with companies who will and that REALLY listens to Florists, and doesn't give them verbal pats on the head.

Peter
The new way of thinking revolution
 
We charge ZERO sending fees (our customers love that) and we generally require a $25 - $30 minimum for wire outs. We collect a $6 delivery fee which we give to the filling florist.

Frank:)
 
Delivery charge included????????

After reading all the posts about wire/del charges. I am wondering if you include the delivery price with the arrangement price in the selection guide?

I started doing this many years ago and now people are comfortable with the idea that the price they see in the selection guide includes delivery in the other town. I tell them up front there is a $7.99 wire charge and tax. No other hidden charges. They seem to have no problem with this. Out of the 70-100 wire outs I have a month there will be a small handful (1 out of a dozen or less) that complain about the wire charge or make a face like they are surprised.

Now mind you many of these people are repeat customers. I have three in my mind right now that comment every time they wire flowers and it has been the same fee for many years. They are just like that and they still come back.

I can count on one hand how many people have turned down wiring because it costs too much.

We have all the city, school, many church, club, and business accounts in our city so we must be doing something right. I just don't now. I'd be very interested to know what would happen if we went wire charge free.

You all have me quite curious, but perhaps that is not an issue in our town. Maybe I am trying to fix somethin' that ain't broke.:confused:
 
This whole discussion reminds me of a guy called "BILL"

in HAMILTON, THAT YEARS AGO, COMBINED OLD WITH NEW, that taught AND listened, that lead AND followed, that grew and grew, into probably one of the finest shops in our whole area, and he did so, because of his relentless desire to help "other florists" retain a "professional" approach to this industry, and those that "listened to what he, and others like him" had to say, is the primary reason why this area STILL RETAINS a mostly professional approach to the florist industry.
You cannot say that about Toronto, or Vancouver, Detroit, or Miami, because "our kind" as the "right kind" is quickly being displaced by "what everybody else is doing syndrome" and as my favourite saying is" JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT, DOES NOT make it right!!"
Hence, in Hamilton and area, namely "DUNDAS" there is ONE SHOP, that is sending orders differently from the rest, WITHOUT a service fee, and maybe that ONE SHOP, can influnce the rest a little, into keeping the DOT.COMS at bay, by bringing the business BACK to the FUTURE, into MY SHOP...maybe into THEIR shops as well....IF THEY LISTEN!!
Mike:rolleyes:
 
We just started about 10 months ago, and it hit stronger when we put it in our yellow pages ad (that all we 6 florists conspired on the size of, and saved 3K a year each) - WE WIRE FLOWERS FREE.

Skin and Boss made me do it. Now I find it is growing one convert at a time, both our database and our numbers, and we are after every wire out in our city. The rest can have the all the incoming. (short side trip story - before we joined FTD about 5 years ago, they had a battle because they, 4 of 5 got together and decided to drop FTO. Well one small shop wouldn't do it "so we all had to go back to FTO so she wouldn't get all the orders" - I willingly let them have MY share of those nowadays) That F word being THE most powerful marketing word there is, it stands out on the page.

Next move now YP's have come out and it is no longer a secret, is to put a bigass FTD logo on the side of the building with the WE WIRE FREE below it. When you have decent technology, taking an order and sending it is quite easy, and when you combine that with some rap like "we don't think it's fair to charge you just to take an order", or "it reduces our wire fees if we send more orders" Or even the other day I told someone the wire service pays us $4 for each order we send, so we don't have to charge our customers (but I DID keep our "dirty little secret" to myself - the 20%).

As for those who clip percents off incoming - that's as scummy as it comes. If you can't figure out how to CONTROL incoming, QUIT. The industry and the consumers don't need to have to pay for your lack of business expertise.

I have a good feeling about this and plan to double my outs from local customers in just a couple years.
 
What does Billl think about no fee sending? I think he is a member of this board.......?

Also you No fee senders.... you do realize this is what the wire services want you to do, don't you? By offering no fee sending you are keeping more orders from being transmitted directly from consumer to filling shop and cutting out the wire services on the internet. This is a serious problem for the wire services and they have found a way to keep the orders coming to them so THEY get "THEIR SHARE" of your business. By encouraging sending at no fee SOME potential internet purchasers will say....why do this myself? If anything goes wrong, the no-fee-sending florist will have to straighten this out for me. Mr. Consumer is right...it is a better choice from that point of view. What he does not realize is that he will get better value for his money if the filling shop gets 100% of his money rather than splitting it between the order sender and order receiver.

And for those of you who disagree with that statement I just returned from a florist meeting and some of the shops told me they love incoming wire orders and they make money on them and they fill to full value. They believe what they said but when pressed privately for more details you learn some charge a "filling" fee...in some cases just enough to cover the .95 incoming Merc or Dove fee...in some cases beyond. MOST I spoke to take out the delivery fee PLUS at least another 27% of that amount to cover the REAL cost of delivery. Some "hide" these amounts in design fees or markups...some show them in design calculations. Some just use different formulas on incoming wires.

Using the 73%/ 27% split (and we all know it's a lot more than that when you include Wire service fees, technology and personnel) FILLING WIRE SERVICE ORDERS is like sending out 100 orders and getting paid for 73 of them! (this is not my original thought....I read it on another board). Think about it as you're doing your no fee sending. Who is benefitting? The consumer? (Is he getting full value really?) The filling shop? (wouldn't it be better if your friend the florist in Timbucktoo got paid 100%?) Or the Wire services? (each order you send through them helps their bottom line and keeps the cycle of reduced profit margins going.)

Not a good thing. IMHO
 
Just read post above mine

This reminds me of the same thinking that makes PYRAMID get-rich quick schemes work. Everybody does what is best for him and doesn't think about the end result.

How can you curb your incoming on one hand and increase your outgoing on the other and still be a responsible florist? You are creating something you do not want yourself. Something you know does not work.

If I consider myself a friend of you and your well-being I SHOULD send you my customer....not my discounted order. People talk about making changes and coming into the 21st century. Wouldn't that be a better way of changing your thinking rather than just doing what's best for you and not thinking about what it does for your fellow florists?

At the very least, if you HAVE to think only of your own business and not how your actions will affect the whole industry, could you at least admit it to yourself and not try to justify yourself with wire-service scripts?

I just re-read this and it sounds a bit harsh....I can't edit it right now to sound a bit more reasonable so I am posting it s is. I don't mean it quite the way it came out...but I think I do have a point about making changes that will benefit the industry as opposed to making changes that will benefit you but not the industry.
 
Originally posted by Paul
What does Billl think about no fee sending? I think he is a member of this board.......?

Also you No fee senders.... you do realize this is what the wire services want you to do, don't you? By offering no fee sending you are keeping more orders from being transmitted directly from consumer to filling shop and cutting out the wire services on the internet. This is a serious problem for the wire services and they have found a way to keep the orders coming to them so THEY get "THEIR SHARE" of your business. By encouraging sending at no fee SOME potential internet purchasers will say....why do this myself?
Click to expand...

Hmmmmm....

In MY case, FTD told me I was....well....NUTS for not charging a service fee...BUTT...I don;t think so !!

Why charge the wire customer a FEE when I would not charge my local delivery customer the same TAX ?? Its a matter of technology and numbers....

My system does the sending AUTOMATICALLY, and the increased volume generated by sending FREE more than makes up for the loss of dollars on the SC.

Likewise, I don;t believe that any of the WSs would encourage FREE sending, for the very reason you suggested, it cuts into their profit on any order they do not get, they only get 7% rather than the 7% AND their 9.99 to 14.99 SC....

Of the 30 million wire orders annually, only about 1.8 million (if that many) are sent florist direct AND of those, MAYBE 25% are sent at 100%, a number that is unlikely to change much over the next decade. While the concept is wonderful, its also unrealistic.

Of the few hundred florists that freaquent ths and other forums on the web, I'd bet, that less than 10% would do it direct...I know for me, that would mean TWO ADDITIONAL employees, just to handle wire orders, not an option in todays economy.
 
Here's another thought.
A customer wants to send flowers but they are the no nonsense, I don't want to mess with this so I will just get on line and send them through 1800.com or FTD.com and they come to the screen where it says that they are going to be charged $9.99 for a service fee on top of their order. Then they remember that
Boss, or Jim or Bloomz or Mikey, whoever, will do it for no service fee. Guess who gets the order?

Yup a REAL florist!

Jim
 
We have BOSS and others to thank for changing to a "Free Sending" flower shop. After decades of florists charging sending fees, why would we give up that extra revenue? To increase our wire outs from our local customer! We took to heart and mind BOSS's famous saying: "Think, outside the box!"

Frank
 
Boss: I am blown away by your figures. 38 Million orders that are captured by non-florists, a profit taken on each order and then the remainder of what the consumer paid is given to the store that actually fills and delivers the order. I'm awed by the thought! Is there another retail business where this concept is in place?

To be honest I had never thought about all the orders that FTD and TF grab by their other businesses (e.g. FTD.Com) in order to maximize their profits from service charges as well as by the percentages the filler gives up...and the filler even pays monthly fees for the priviledge of giving up this profit. Wow!

So I am left wonderilng who is paying the freight,... the local customers? If less than 5% of those orders are put through at full value to the filler we're talking a lot of dollars that disappear between the consumer paying and the filler getting paid. If I got paid 100% for every order I filled I could buy a better car or reduce my overall retail prices or pay my bills a little faster or a little of all of these.

I am overwhelmed by the realization of how many dollars are NOT getting to the filling lforists and how many other kinds of businessmen are making money off me filling an incoming order.

Got to think about all this.
 
OK...so to all you No-fee senders: do you ever worry about how the filling florist can eat the discount and still fill your order to satisfaction? If you do a lot of outgoing orders because of no-fee sending, do you also get more complaints to deal with?
I see so much on the boards about we won't fill an order from this source or that source...this one is a gatherer that one is a skimmer...this one sends orders that are too cheap than one sends orders that are too far away to deliver.... It seems to me that the main reason many go to no-fee sending is because they finally figured out you make more money on the outs than the ins. An earlier post states quite clearly that the idea is to limit incoming orders while capturing outgoing ones....(just like the dot.coms). But when you are catching all the outs you are creating ins for someone else. To me it still seems like a Pyramid scheme...only looking at what it does for you, not the industry.

I'm going to shut up now. Hope it's busier tomorrow so I don;t have so much time on my hands!
 
I can't speak for the others but in my case, I find that my customers are willing to send larger orders because they are not having to pay for the service fee. When someone comes in to my shop and plops down $50 plus delivery and tax that is what gets sent out. $50 plus delivery. Not $50 minus $10 for a service fee.
Personally I don't go after the outgoings as a reason for not charging a service fee. I do it to get customers to shop in my store and order flowers from me. I see the wire outs as nothing more than a service that I provide to my locals. I live in a very small town. If I had to depend on wire outs as any part of my business, I would not be open very long. On the other hand my average dollar sale to my local customers is $49.83 which is pretty darn good in any retail environment. I strongly believe that this is because my customers feel that they are getting their money's worth in my store so they are willing to spend a little more.

Jim
 
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