Wire Service Profitability

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we ran the calculator last year, at years end, and again this year, at end of May, and have determined that the overall benefit to our shop is dead!!
The ONLY positive to a wire service generated order, is to identify new customers, and go after them, we have, and the results would "skew" the actual worth of being a member, so,sounds to me, like we may well be done with FTD...there are way too many "other" options.....
 
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Joe...what am I missing??

I'm getting paid $25K and sending out $34.5K worth of product and delivery (but actually it's not even that close, when I deduct the del chg)...I don't see it as earning anything...

(not being confrontational, maybe I just have too many years into this gig and can't see the petals for the stems?)

You are not sending out $34.5K of inventoried product.

You are transferring a sale to another flower shop. There really isn't a cost associated with the transfer (yes I know there is some cost, but that is why we all charge Wire Fees,. The fees should offset the cost of transfer and reconcillation, etc).

The question you have to ask yourself is...

Are you willing to lose $35K worth ($25 net incoming plus $11K net outgoing) WS Sales? Remember, once you dump the WS that $35K will go to your competitors who still belong to ftd,tf800.

Mark, I too have been in this business since I was a little seedling, so I think we both have seen the good and bad times with WS bus.

joe
 
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You are not sending out $34.5K of inventoried product.

joe
I must be having a dense day... no wonder some of the "New Kids on the Block" can't make heads or tails of this biz...

The above statement has me confused Joe...What am I doing then? Order comes in for $50.00, I deduct my $9.95 del chg and send out an order valued at $40.05...but I am only getting paid $36.50 in WS wampum...less TAXes...

The $25K net on the incoming side is really (as I see it, but my eyes are bothering me today) a wash...money comes in and money goes out with no real benefit to my biz...the "marketing to the recipient" myth does not work for me...

I agree and understand on the outgoing side...
 
I know this might sound a little controversial, but has anyone considered a wire service membership co-op?

For example, if Mark doesn't want to belong to the wire service but sill wants the ability to easily send wire orders, I could offer that service to him giving him the 20% and I'd operate off the rebate.

The benefit to him would be no costs associated with being a member of a wire service and no unprofitable incoming wire orders, while still being able to seamlessly send orders out. The benefit to me would be the rebate, with the possible benefit to both of us being better leverage and negotiating power with the wire services.

RC
 
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I know this might sound a little controversial, but has anyone considered a wire service membership co-op?

For example, if Mark doesn't want to belong to the wire service but sill wants the ability to easily send wire orders, I could offer that service to him giving him the 20% and I'd operate off the rebate.

The benefit to him would be no costs associated with being a member of a wire service and no unprofitable incoming wire orders, while still being able to seamlessly send orders out. The benefit to me would be the rebate, with the possible benefit to both of us being better leverage and negotiating power with the wire services.

RC

not at all controversial....we've been doing this with 2 other shops for 3 years now......
 
I know this might sound a little controversial, but has anyone considered a wire service membership co-op?

For example, if Mark doesn't want to belong to the wire service but sill wants the ability to easily send wire orders, I could offer that service to him giving him the 20% and I'd operate off the rebate.

The benefit to him would be no costs associated with being a member of a wire service and no unprofitable incoming wire orders, while still being able to seamlessly send orders out. The benefit to me would be the rebate, with the possible benefit to both of us being better leverage and negotiating power with the wire services.

RC

I would be happy to send out orders for any florist no longer WS affiliated.
 
I know this might sound a little controversial, but has anyone considered a wire service membership co-op?

For example, if Mark doesn't want to belong to the wire service but sill wants the ability to easily send wire orders, I could offer that service to him giving him the 20% and I'd operate off the rebate.

The benefit to him would be no costs associated with being a member of a wire service and no unprofitable incoming wire orders, while still being able to seamlessly send orders out. The benefit to me would be the rebate, with the possible benefit to both of us being better leverage and negotiating power with the wire services.

RC

I do this with several shop in near by towns and have for years.

I would love to be a member of a Florist to Florist Co-op. But isn't that kinda how FTD started out?

If you can work it out, I'll join.
 
The Inter-Florist Trade is GOOD! The MIDDLEMEN are not!

Personally, I think the Inter-Florist trade between two REAL FLORISTS with a GUARANTEE of PAYMENT, and at the accepted 80% - 20% commission structure still works.

That's how it all started, and that's how it should all end up.

The FLAW in the original plan, has become DA MIDDLEMEN.

The on-the-surface 7% Clearinghouse fees, less the additional 2% average incoming order transmission charges, could even be considered a REASONABLE COST OF DOING WS BUSINESS, except for the fact that, their annual costs of membership have become TOO HIGH.

Since the majority of florists viewed a WS as a means to increase their business, albeit by filling discounted orders, thus acquiring new customers from the recipients of their products, that's been their rationale all along. And, in the past, it was reasonable when profit margins were higher.

Sadly, the TOTAL INCOMING ORDER AQUISITION COSTS, and once the WS's ANNUAL MEMBERSHIP COSTS are factored into the equation, brings the net net to filling florists down to 54%, on average, and even less now.

And at fifty-four cents on their dollar, NO FLORIST can afford to sustain this ponzi scheme if they wish to survive.

With their COGS (cost of goods) at 30%, COL (cost of labor) at 25%, and COD (cost of delivery) at 20%, their net loss per order is (-21%).

Even if one was to throw out the COL (cost of labor) at 25%, which another florist referred to as USING FILLING FLORISTS as their FREE LABOR FORCE, that florist would still only net four cents from each of those dollars.

So, let's just say that, you fill an incoming order at a $100 (gross) and put all of your great products, design ability and impeccable $ervice into it. And after all the smoke clears, you make a whopping $4 net profit.

I don't know about the rest of you but, I'd just as soon put my feet up on the desk, grab a cup of coffee, and read the paper instead of. That alone is worth my $4! Their plan is just TOO MUCH WORK for A CHUMP CHANGE RETURN ON MY INVESTMENTS!

We've discussed this all before, and some shops have indicated that, since they DO NOT INCREASE their current LABOR COSTS in order to fill these incoming orders, they don't consider those costs to be a factor, and so, they don't factor them into this equation, thus A FREE BEE and an added benefit to the MIDDLEMEN, not those florists.

However, and in my mind, I demand to get paid for ALL MY DOO!

In fact, I refuse to work for FREE for ANYONE under any circumstances, other than for a local charity.

Some of the WS myths that have continually been perpetuated:

1. Those recipients will all become my new customers.
2. My truck was going by there anyway.
3. It keeps my COGS low since I can buy in bigger quantities.
4. It keeps my help busy even when my local business is slow.

These days, every nickel counts and so:

1. WS Recipients usually only ever remain RECIPIENTS, not senders.
2. Park the truck, save the gas, send the driver home early, and save money.
3. Buy less, since at least what you sell, you'll make money on.
4. Send your help home early when you're slow, and save money.

One aspect of the FLORAL ORDER GATHERER GAME, either with the WSs themselves, or the OG partners they sleep with, which I have found to be AMAZING, is in the fact that, they have all lowered their SRP's to price points which some of us haven't witnessed in over 20 years.

At the same time, they've all increased their annual dues as well as all other ancillary fees, and for some shops, their costs are now $5K to $6K per year.

And so, since one side continues to GO LOWER with the other side continuing to GO HIGHER, it is no longer a sustainable formula on anyone's spreadsheet.

The only winners are the BIG SENDERS, especially since their REBATES ALONE, are usually enough of a found revenue to pay their WS costs.

However, they are THE EXCEPTION, not the rule! Facts are that, in reality, THEIR REBATES have always been funded by the SMALL MOM and POP SHOPS.

So now, WEE SMALL MOM and POP shops, are forced to find another viable alternative and method to TRADE AMONGST OURSELVES since, we can no longer afford the WS MIDDLEMEN as our newest competing partners.

Which is why, we like IFA at only $20 per month with their one time application fee of only $40.00.

As usual, this is my own UMBLE OPINION, and you are free to make your own business decisions based on your own needs, even if you are already shackled to your choice of partners.

Check it out: http://www.myifa.org/users/signup.php

 
I know this might sound a little controversial, but has anyone considered a wire service membership co-op?

For example, if Mark doesn't want to belong to the wire service but sill wants the ability to easily send wire orders, I could offer that service to him giving him the 20% and I'd operate off the rebate.

The benefit to him would be no costs associated with being a member of a wire service and no unprofitable incoming wire orders, while still being able to seamlessly send orders out. The benefit to me would be the rebate, with the possible benefit to both of us being better leverage and negotiating power with the wire services.

RC
Man RC, I like your idea. Just think I send my wire-outs on your account, you get the rebate and I get to slow pay on your dime. You know, when it slows down in the summer you have to pay the bill and I get to use your cash flow to help my business. SIGN ME UP!
 
When labor factor is zero

All the discussion is great, but here is a factor I think needs to be considered.

My designers are scheduled to work today from 8 to 4 or some variation of that.

So today my staff could turn out 10 more wire in arrangements with no additional cost to me for payroll. The payroll is there anyway, with or with 10 more orders.

So shouldn't I consider those 10 wires in as not having to carry any payroll.

Arn't I just adding $500 revenue [$420 flowers & $80 delivery] without any increase in payroll?

Tom Carlson
 
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Joe...what am I missing??

I'm getting paid $25K and sending out $34.5K worth of product and delivery (but actually it's not even that close, when I deduct the del chg)...I don't see it as earning anything...

(not being confrontational, maybe I just have too many years into this gig and can't see the petals for the stems?)

I must be having a dense day... no wonder some of the "New Kids on the Block" can't make heads or tails of this biz...

The above statement has me confused Joe...What am I doing then? Order comes in for $50.00, I deduct my $9.95 del chg and send out an order valued at $40.05...but I am only getting paid $36.50 in WS wampum...less TAXes...

The $25K net on the incoming side is really (as I see it, but my eyes are bothering me today) a wash...money comes in and money goes out with no real benefit to my biz...the "marketing to the recipient" myth does not work for me...

I agree and understand on the outgoing side...

Hi mark,

I misread your sentence (that I highlighted in Bold).

My point was you are receiving a Net $25K for filling, but also receiving a Net $11K for sending.

Adding the two back together, you are still receiving $35-$36K in additional sales had you not belonged to a wire service.

Also, on your outbounds, you have about a net of $35K ($56K-$11K) going towards a sale that is a non inventoried sale (the money the other shops are receiving for filling your orders).

I look at the outgoing business as an offset to the incoming commission given up.

Sorry for the confusion.

Joe
 
All the discussion is great, but here is a factor I think needs to be considered.

My designers are scheduled to work today from 8 to 4 or some variation of that.

So today my staff could turn out 10 more wire in arrangements with no additional cost to me for payroll. The payroll is there anyway, with or with 10 more orders.

So shouldn't I consider those 10 wires in as not having to carry any payroll.

Arn't I just adding $500 revenue [$420 flowers & $80 delivery] without any increase in payroll?

Tom Carlson

Tom, as you well know, this is the primary point of contention as to whether wire-ins are profitable. In your example there is no incremental labor because you have already decided to pay them to stay longer than they need to (unfortunately most of us do that). If you wanted to, you could send them home and make more money. After you take the wire-ins, you can'd do that. That means that you have given up the opportunity to make more money. Therefore you need to assign some of the labor costs to the wire-ins and not to the existing orders.
 
Now for Hollywood. I received a Red Dot from this guy for a previous post in this thread. Here is what Henry wrote.

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, SIR. No WS in our shop.....less work, yes, more profit yes. a MATTER OF CHOICE. Respectfully AGAIN, Hollywood


Henry, aka Hollywood, I don't have any idea why you feel it necessary to attempt to harass me, but you do.

The only time I have returned any comments to you is when you have personally attacked me or my credibility.

I give freely of my time here and I sincerely enjoy participating here at FC. I have had a lot of flower shops owners -FC members call me and ask me questions outside of the FC.

All I do is attempt to help other florists when I feel my experience, expertise, education and/or other skills can make a positive contribution to this board.

Unfortunately, you don't see that.

Joe
 
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All the discussion is great, but here is a factor I think needs to be considered.

My designers are scheduled to work today from 8 to 4 or some variation of that.

So today my staff could turn out 10 more wire in arrangements with no additional cost to me for payroll. The payroll is there anyway, with or with 10 more orders.

So shouldn't I consider those 10 wires in as not having to carry any payroll.

Arn't I just adding $500 revenue [$420 flowers & $80 delivery] without any increase in payroll?

Tom Carlson

This has been a my point for a long time.

If we could guess as to our daily business and accurately guess how busy we would be everyday, then we could staff labor exactly as needed.

However, I don't know from one day to the next if we are going to be doing an extra 10 or 20 orders or none at all for the day. This is a problem we all face.

Also, re; delivery costs. We all have certain fixed costs that don't go away if we don't make any deliveries on a given day. Two of those costs are Depreciation and Insurance. For those of you with delivery drivers, you pay him irregardless if he is making 10 deliveries or 50 deliveries for the day. This assumes you have a delivery driver paid hourly or salaried and not by the number of deliveries.

Joe
 
I look at the outgoing business as an offset to the incoming commission given up.

Joe
True enuf...they do offset each other, I'm just not sure the small NET gain on the whole mess is worth my time anymore...

And Tom, Um...Mr Carlson... SEND THEM HOME! My staff knows they are well paid, and get the hours I can afford to have them here...they make alot of money Sept-May...it's their job to save some for June-July-August...
 
Arn't I just adding $500 revenue [$420 flowers & $80 delivery] without any increase in payroll?

I think so, yes.

IF the labor is a fixed expense, then wire-ins are profitable. Wire-ins have a small contribution margin of approximately 25% before labor is deducted (i.e., $25 gross profit from a $100 wire-ins); so if the menbership fee is $300 a month, you would need approximately $1,200 wire-ins a month to break even.

If the labor "cost" is, say, 25%, it obviously wipes out the profit.

So the question of whether wire-ins are profitable or not all boils down to the question of whether the labor is fixed or not.

My opinion is that for a small shop with one designer with fixed time schedule, it is better to account it as fixed. This way would give the owner a more accurate view of what would happen if they decided to get rid of WS.

If your shop can send some of your designers home earlier when the day is slow, then it is better to account it as variable. This includes a large shop with multiple designers and also a small shop with temp designers (such as during holidays).

Then there's a question of how much % we should allocate to labor. The stadard formula, ~25%, is justifiable only when almost all your payrolls are for flexible-time designers. That's rare. SO in general, allocating 25% labor would result in a more pessimistic picture of WS profittability than the reality.

Also, note that labor cost relative to the day's total revenue is smaller for busy days and larger for slow days. 25% is just an average. This point is important because, for a small shop hiring multiple temp designers for Christmas, the labor should not be accounted as 25%.
 
True enuf...they do offset each other, I'm just not sure the small NET gain on the whole mess is worth my time anymore...

yea, but here is where i think we stumble.

Remember, if you no longer are WS affiliated you don't just lose the small net gain, you lose the entire $35K of WS.

Your commissions are offsetting each other. The rebates are offsetting WS member fees and you are left with an additonal $35K in Gross sales.

Is that extra $35K worth retaining?

For me the answer is Yes.

Joe
 
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yea, but here is where i think we stumble.

Remember, if you no longer are WS affiliated you don't just lose the small net gain, you lose the entire $35K of WS.

Your commissions are offsetting each other. The rebates are offsetting WS member fees and you are left with an additonal $35K in Gross sales.

Is that extra $35K worth retaining?

For me the answer is Yes.

Joe

You knew I couldn't stay away from this, Joe.....

Why is the GROSS sales worth it to you if you NET so little? Is it the potential for new customers? Does it just look pretty on the financials?

Just asking as you know I value your opinion.
 
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Arn't I just adding $500 revenue [$420 flowers & $80 delivery] without any increase in payroll?

Tom Carlson
(not picking Tom, just looking at $500.00 in orders)

$500.00
- 80.00 (delivery, [email protected])(Probably losing money here, paying driver/gas/ins etc)
-135.00 (27%)
-126.00 (30% COG on $420.00)
- 60.00 (labor, 1 designer making 10.00/hr, plus assoc taxes, work comp etc)
- 50.00 (10% overhead)
- 50.00 ($5.00/order to cover membership TAX)
- (1.00) (oop's, Tom has not been paid yet)

I'm sure someone will argue these numbers (I did them quick) and I'm sure they need adjustment, and maybe that -1.00 is really more like -15-20.00...

Be interesting to chat about the IN's and OUT's seperately...we know sending is profitable if you have enough orders to cover the membership with rebates...but the incoming side...unless you can buy like RC, you have little hope to make money filling even 1 order a month...
 
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