Wire Services Are Buying Your Customer
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Joe Mioux
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toto, I know you have commented that you are not Anti-WS, but you are anti 800tftd.
I know you are pro IFA and that is fine.
I have always been hestitant to join IFA for the purpose of sending orders because I don't know its membership numbers. If it is only a 1000 or 2, then that presents a problem for outgoing order fullfillment.
I also do not mind accepting incoming IFA orders because of the same reasons I still remain a member of the tf.
Apparently you have no problem sending through IFA. Do you know where IFA gets its receiving florist database?
joe
Joe
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
LJVF
Well-Known Member
What I've gotten out of this thread up until now:
1) If managed properly, the wire services can be a nice supplement to a shop that is already operating in the black and has decent volume.
2) There are no guarantees of profitability using a wire service. Each florist has their own set of variables.
3) The wire services and OG's are having a negative effect on the retail floral industry as we know it today.
4) The industry has been and is changing before our eyes. We always need to be forward thinking.
1) If managed properly, the wire services can be a nice supplement to a shop that is already operating in the black and has decent volume.
2) There are no guarantees of profitability using a wire service. Each florist has their own set of variables.
3) The wire services and OG's are having a negative effect on the retail floral industry as we know it today.
4) The industry has been and is changing before our eyes. We always need to be forward thinking.
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
This is some of my best commentary ever on FC.
Ot, thank you. I have formulated ideas and structured my commentary on your challenges. This is good.
OT. I read your questions early this morning and commented immediately.
I see you were online about 4 hours ago, without any response.
The difference between you and me is enormous.
I have answered your questions while you and others choose to not answer any of mine.
that is ok. It answers other questions and confirms suspicions.
joe
MANORVILLE
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Joe,
I for one would like to say thanks for bringing your knowledge, expertise and business prowess to the table for all to evaluate.
I have learned much from you, and others, during these micro debates and can only hope that newer members take all into consideration as there is so much to be learned.
As to the right and wrong, I suppose that depends entirely on the way a shop owner chooses to administrate their respective business based upon their own criteria and circumstances.
In my case, "as the seek and destroy, impatient reactionary type" I have in fact seen tremendous credibility in your statements and have applied much of what I have learned from you as best as I could. It has helped me progress and grow, though for some others it may be out of reach and impractical to rationalize and analyze your logic. Guess it all comes down to what works and what you're comfortable with, right, wrong or indifferent.
Just a few thoughts.
I for one would like to say thanks for bringing your knowledge, expertise and business prowess to the table for all to evaluate.
I have learned much from you, and others, during these micro debates and can only hope that newer members take all into consideration as there is so much to be learned.
As to the right and wrong, I suppose that depends entirely on the way a shop owner chooses to administrate their respective business based upon their own criteria and circumstances.
In my case, "as the seek and destroy, impatient reactionary type" I have in fact seen tremendous credibility in your statements and have applied much of what I have learned from you as best as I could. It has helped me progress and grow, though for some others it may be out of reach and impractical to rationalize and analyze your logic. Guess it all comes down to what works and what you're comfortable with, right, wrong or indifferent.
Just a few thoughts.
One of the things that our discussion has confirmed to me is I'm very glad that I never was interested in being an accountant. It has never mattered to me whether it was a fixed or variable expense. I only needed to know that it was an expense and profit was needed to pay that bill. In college, one of the professors indicated that accounting was more of an art form rather then scientific procedure. I totally agree. For example, florist buys gas in different amounts weekly based on need and this is classified as a variable expense. However, schedule your designers that way and no matter what, they are fixed expense. Joe, I don't disagree with your assessment of terms, but I still disagree with the outcome.
This really is a continuation of the old argument about florists using the spare time of their designers and drivers as to the reason that accepted discounted wire business. It was to jsut keep them busy and not really for profit. And although you are about two steps above most of us here who are trying to wade through all this, I'll be the first to admit you have really taken this old concept to a new level. I mean that as a compliment, Joe. I've had to read this material over several times to make sure I really understood.
The old argument always focused on paying WS costs with outgoing commissions and rebates and receiving was just an added benefit of WS membership and although the margins were very thin, a florist was making some money on business they would have not had access to without the WS. I never agreed with it, but as an argument, it had some good points. In your case, Joe, your accounting focus is on the incoming discounted business paying WS dues and fees. On page 24, you stated, "if your incoming WS business can't cover the association fees of WS membership, you should not be a member". Later, you stated, "as long as you cover the variable costs plus the WS fees on a monthly or yearly basis, you do not have to cover all your fixed costs to earn a higher profit".
Now I have a very big problem with this concept because no florist has any control over how many incoming orders they will get, or the value of the order or the product required, the length of time to deliver, etc. Your basis to pay a fixed expense (WS dues and fees) is with a completely unpredictable revenue source is a scary approach to say the least.
Another thing I note is that not only do you bypass labor cost on calculation of profit on incoming WS orders, but also delivery cost. Now if a florist has a high volumn of deliveries, then I'll agree that adding one or two more on the truck isn't really a problem and most of the cost of delivery will be absorbed by the other orders. However, all the other orders on that truck are carrying a full delivery charge as well as a full labor charge. Although an accountant may tell you that this is perfectable acceptable accounting procedure, hopefully most florists will realize that this doesn't really make sense. It makes little sense to be willing to welcome a discounted order from a stranger (and all WS are strangers) and not be willing to offer the same discount to your local friends (your local customers) as an incentive.
On another thread started by Bloomzie concerning marketing, you strongly disagreed with ideas that offered some type of discount to local customers as an incentive. Didn't want to do it on tulips, didn't want to do it on roses. I even offered an incentive idea using widgets and you disagreed with me even on that and told me that the .50 we gave away may be needed to pay a bill later.
You are probably right Joe. We will never agree on many of these subjects because our business philosphies are so very different. But just for the record, unlike Toto, I'm completely against any WS. Any program that is based on 20-80 has outlived it usefulness in the floral industry today and the vast majority of florists will do much better without them. The problem is the younger florists are unable to determine the potential to fail with a WS until after they get persuaded to "be part of the team". Then for many, it's too late. The gentleman who open a shop in my town at the same time I was getting ready to retire lasted 18 months. He didn't even make the end of his two year lease. But he proudly displayed that WS sticker on the door from the first day he opened and it was still there the day he closed.
I think that to be a very generous number, but alas, it's a secret for some reason.
I've asked and been refused an answer.
TOTO
New Member
PRO REAL FLORIST Joe!
Joe, I am PRO REAL FLORIST ONLY, period!
And, any COMPANY or any WS who tries to come in between a REAL FLORIST and their customers are ANTI REAL FLORIST, in my opinion.
I am pro IFA simply because their association business model is based on a relationship between TWO REAL FLORISTS thus eliminating all of the OG MIDDLEMEN as well as the 7% WS clearing house fees and the additional 2% reverse the order transmission charges to the filler florist, already saddled with the TOO HIGH INCOMING ORDER DISCOUNT.
Facts are that, at the beginning of the Florist's Telegraph Delivery Service back in 1910, their only mission was the exchange of orders between two real florists from one City or State to another, with a guarantee of payment after those transactions were completed.
Filling florists cannot remain profitable when filling orders at a 30% discount in addition to the dues and fees which they must pay in order to receive those incoming orders coupled with NOTHING to help pay for their costs of DELIVERY $ERVICE. And $5 in WS CHUMP CHANGE WAMPUM nets them $3.50 and doesn't even cover the cost of a gallon of gasoline in today's energy CRISIS market.
With IFA, those filling florists receive a full 80% net amount to them and their membership in IFA is FREE until they send out their orders through IFA, at which point, it is only $20 per month.
That's a far cry from the $300 to $500 PER MONTH WS members now pay, and unless they send out more than they get in, it's a loosing proposition for the vast majority of SMALL MOM and POP Shops.
IFA gleans their filling network from FAS NET, a POS system, which is INDEPENDENT of all Wire Services.
The FAS NET network of other REAL FLORISTS also happens to have many filling shops who are still a member of a WIRE SERVICE, and in some case, maintain a multi wire service affiliation. Their network access is suggested at some where in the neighborhood of 13,000 real florists across the USA and CANADA, I think?
On occasion, I do have a problem getting an order filled in certain areas, but then again, and when our two shops were FTD ONLY!, we had some bad experiences back then as well. We remember, all too well that, our Floridean, Arizona, and Nevada counterparts, would SHUT DOWN their mercury on the THURSDAY before Mother's Day each and every year, from 1985 till 2001, which is the year that, we chose to become FTDI FREE versus FTDA ONLY!
IFA is not the BEE ALL, END ALL, but then again, none of them are!
The big difference FORE MEE, is in the fact that, IFA is a basic order transfer system at a $20 per month price tag along with the fact that, they do not, nor will they ever, try and compete with me over my own customers and for their 100% sales while thinking that, I'll be willing to sit back and then, fill their orders at 70 cents from their dollar plus NOTHING for my DELIVERY $ERVICE!
You stated that, you do not mind filling IFA orders. I know that you are a savvy minded business person and while we disagree on the WS issue and their worth, the fact that filling an IFA order from another REAL FLORIST at 80% net to you, versus 71% through a WS, has got to strike a cord on your guitar.
After all, you are in business to MAKE MONEY since what WEE DOO ain't no FREEKEN HOBBY, ey?
In closing, I am 100% anti floral order gatherer at the expense of ALL REAL FLORISTS and regardless of whether or not, they are 800-FLOWERS, 800-SEND-FTD, 800-TELEFLORA, along with any and all of the OGs, DOGs, and Non-Local Phonies they choose to sleep with in addition to ALL OF THEIR FLORAL DOT.CON websites.
Having come full circle since 1969 and having had all seven wire services at one point to include Teleflora, FTD, AFS, Redbook, Florafax, FCN, and Carik, I've watched as most of them simply disappeared.
Teleflora bought out FCN, Redbook (RFS) and Florafax. AFS and CARIK just dried up and died due to paying all those rebates. And 800-FLOWERS, once a member in good standing in FTDA, started his very own wire service.
So now, we have two major players left and one wanna bee.
The difference now (as opposed to back then) is that, back then, they were MY PARTNERS!
Today, they are all OUR COMPETITORS and what makes me absolutely crazy, is in the fact that, FLORISTS STILL SEND MONEY to THEIR COMPETITORS with the hopes that, THEIR COMPETITORS will send them back the CRUMBS from their tables, and after they have filled their stomachs to the max.
Sorry Joe, but for the life of MEE, I still don't get it! ::BS
Joe, I am PRO REAL FLORIST ONLY, period!
And, any COMPANY or any WS who tries to come in between a REAL FLORIST and their customers are ANTI REAL FLORIST, in my opinion.
I am pro IFA simply because their association business model is based on a relationship between TWO REAL FLORISTS thus eliminating all of the OG MIDDLEMEN as well as the 7% WS clearing house fees and the additional 2% reverse the order transmission charges to the filler florist, already saddled with the TOO HIGH INCOMING ORDER DISCOUNT.
Facts are that, at the beginning of the Florist's Telegraph Delivery Service back in 1910, their only mission was the exchange of orders between two real florists from one City or State to another, with a guarantee of payment after those transactions were completed.
Filling florists cannot remain profitable when filling orders at a 30% discount in addition to the dues and fees which they must pay in order to receive those incoming orders coupled with NOTHING to help pay for their costs of DELIVERY $ERVICE. And $5 in WS CHUMP CHANGE WAMPUM nets them $3.50 and doesn't even cover the cost of a gallon of gasoline in today's energy CRISIS market.
With IFA, those filling florists receive a full 80% net amount to them and their membership in IFA is FREE until they send out their orders through IFA, at which point, it is only $20 per month.
That's a far cry from the $300 to $500 PER MONTH WS members now pay, and unless they send out more than they get in, it's a loosing proposition for the vast majority of SMALL MOM and POP Shops.
IFA gleans their filling network from FAS NET, a POS system, which is INDEPENDENT of all Wire Services.
The FAS NET network of other REAL FLORISTS also happens to have many filling shops who are still a member of a WIRE SERVICE, and in some case, maintain a multi wire service affiliation. Their network access is suggested at some where in the neighborhood of 13,000 real florists across the USA and CANADA, I think?
On occasion, I do have a problem getting an order filled in certain areas, but then again, and when our two shops were FTD ONLY!, we had some bad experiences back then as well. We remember, all too well that, our Floridean, Arizona, and Nevada counterparts, would SHUT DOWN their mercury on the THURSDAY before Mother's Day each and every year, from 1985 till 2001, which is the year that, we chose to become FTDI FREE versus FTDA ONLY!
IFA is not the BEE ALL, END ALL, but then again, none of them are!
The big difference FORE MEE, is in the fact that, IFA is a basic order transfer system at a $20 per month price tag along with the fact that, they do not, nor will they ever, try and compete with me over my own customers and for their 100% sales while thinking that, I'll be willing to sit back and then, fill their orders at 70 cents from their dollar plus NOTHING for my DELIVERY $ERVICE!
You stated that, you do not mind filling IFA orders. I know that you are a savvy minded business person and while we disagree on the WS issue and their worth, the fact that filling an IFA order from another REAL FLORIST at 80% net to you, versus 71% through a WS, has got to strike a cord on your guitar.
After all, you are in business to MAKE MONEY since what WEE DOO ain't no FREEKEN HOBBY, ey?
In closing, I am 100% anti floral order gatherer at the expense of ALL REAL FLORISTS and regardless of whether or not, they are 800-FLOWERS, 800-SEND-FTD, 800-TELEFLORA, along with any and all of the OGs, DOGs, and Non-Local Phonies they choose to sleep with in addition to ALL OF THEIR FLORAL DOT.CON websites.
Having come full circle since 1969 and having had all seven wire services at one point to include Teleflora, FTD, AFS, Redbook, Florafax, FCN, and Carik, I've watched as most of them simply disappeared.
Teleflora bought out FCN, Redbook (RFS) and Florafax. AFS and CARIK just dried up and died due to paying all those rebates. And 800-FLOWERS, once a member in good standing in FTDA, started his very own wire service.
So now, we have two major players left and one wanna bee.
The difference now (as opposed to back then) is that, back then, they were MY PARTNERS!
Today, they are all OUR COMPETITORS and what makes me absolutely crazy, is in the fact that, FLORISTS STILL SEND MONEY to THEIR COMPETITORS with the hopes that, THEIR COMPETITORS will send them back the CRUMBS from their tables, and after they have filled their stomachs to the max.
Sorry Joe, but for the life of MEE, I still don't get it! ::BS
Been absent from this thread because I am busy. Sat down this morning and caught up on this thread. To toto....:grovel:. You are my hero. Earlier in this thread I said that if I could make money be a sending florist as some do, I would do it but you have changed my thinking. I think we all should take care of the industry as a whole as much as possible. It could be that some sending florists have such a big percentage of their revenue tied up in sending via WS that they can't survive without it. I am a small shop with only 2 employees and me. I can't walk in the shoes of someone who sends $8000/month in WS orders. I would imagine that it is a significant amount of revenue to that shop. To me it would feel as though I was in an abusive relationship and unable to leave it. I am glad that I have gotten to know the WS early on in my business so that I won't be trapped into an unhappy marriage with them.
In all fairness to Joe, whom I respect, he has posed some questions in this thread that he says were never answered. Joe, could you post one question at a time and we can all post our answers?
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
OH?!?
ARE YOU SURE?!?
Toto, be very careful making statements like this. Because you are saying things that are not exactlyl accurate.
joe
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
I just walked in the shop at 9pm. I just got back from some wholesale deliveries and I am really not in the mood to sit back and re-ask all those questions.
I have two proms this weekend, a funeral Sat, a very large plant sale fund raiser (think like 10 average weddings rolled up in to one event).
Retail flower shops wanting Hydrangeas, HB's, Combo pots, and various other plants.
So no I really don't feel like re-asking the questions that certain posters choose to ignore in order for them to advance their agenda.
joe
Maybe after Mother's Day.
I would *think* their "filling network" includes florists nationwide, taken from WS directories, cuz they don't have hardly that many members.
I'd also venture a bet that most of their orders go outside their member list, tho I sure can't prove that, since nobody will tell how many members there are.
I'd also venture a bet that most of their orders go outside their member list, tho I sure can't prove that, since nobody will tell how many members there are.
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
Do I really want to dismantle this post?
Yea I do, because it is mostly wrong.
and this post takes some of my previous posts out of context.
MANORVILLE
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Ding Ding Ding
Hey Joe
I for one am very interested in this thread, though haven't been able to get through all the posts. Getting close to 24 and beyond though and did manage to skim through the remaining pages but want to go back as time permits.
I've missed a lot in my absence.
Looking forward to future posts to further break down many of the issues contained within.
Hey Joe
I for one am very interested in this thread, though haven't been able to get through all the posts. Getting close to 24 and beyond though and did manage to skim through the remaining pages but want to go back as time permits.
I've missed a lot in my absence.
Looking forward to future posts to further break down many of the issues contained within.
TOTO
New Member
What part of that didn't you understand Joe?
IFA is INDEPENDENT of all wire services! I said it and I'll stand by it!
The only exception that I'm aware of, is in the INTERFLORA GAME and since there is only ONE PLAYER in that game (for now), those orders are still forced to go through that wringer. However, the Internet will help change those rules as time marches on.
That's not to say that, IFA MEMBERS are not affiliated with other wire services though, JOE!
Regardless, FTDI was just sold again and who knows where that's gonna take their MEMBER FLORIST'S WALLETS.
In addition, rumor has it that, TELEFLORA will be jumping on the FLOWER and GIFT DROP SHIP TRAIN real soon as well! Then again, TOTO already knew that was inevitable! Once they fired Greg and KLINKO couldn't cut it, the handwriting was on their walls.
Same shell game was played at FTDI! First we had Boyce, then Whitman, and finally, small bob who was the guru of CREATIVE FINANCING 101.
Because, and in the CORPORATE world, and as you already know, if the current CEO cannot produce the results ($$$$$) the investors are looking for, they move on to find another new CEO who will. And the new CEO will produce those results by WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY, and regardless of who it hurts.
For the time being, their MEMBERS remain a PASSIVE STREAM OF REVENUES and for as long as THEY CAN KEEP THE DREAM ALIVE! In the meantime, they also know that, the end of their OLD BUSINESS MODEL looms closer and closer each day and due to the Internet. This is why, all of them have had to move to DIRECT GIFT and FLORAL DROP SHIPPING and to the EXCLUSION of their very own members.
Eventually, they all know that, they will no longer have enough florists to keep their PONZI scheme alive, which is why they have been working so hard to create an ALTERNATE BUSINESS MODEL and MARKETING PLAN to replace their old business model, which is doomed to failure.
These companies are NOT A REAL FLORIST'S PARTNER Joe! They are OUR COMPETITORS!
They are REAL FLORIST USERS and with no other goal or objective, other than to PRODUCE THEIR BOTTOM LINE NET PROFITS from the BLOOD, SWEAT, and TEARS of any MOM and POP florist who works for them.
It's a sad fact, but ultimately true!
Similar to the same scam that, the DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES are trying to pull on the American people when they state that, BIG OIL COMPANIES are PRICE GOUGING the PUBLIC.
They fail to mention the OPEC Oil Cartel having no mercy on the US and they fail to mention the fact that, our Government collected close to 82 Billion in tax revenues from all US Oil Companies in 2007.
http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/oil_companies_getting_a_free_ride/
As Mark Levin asked on his radio show tonight: "WHAT DID YOU (our Government) DO with all that money and why don't you have anything left?
http://www.marklevinshow.com/
Facts are that, our own Government is TAX GOUGING the American People far more than the producers of the oil products themselves. In fact, our own Government with its OVER REGULATION of our Oil Industry, IMPEDES sourcing new oil reserves off our coastal regions as well as Anwr, Alaska, as well as virtually preventing them from building those desperately needed new oil refineries.
All courtesy of the ENVIRONMENTAL WACKOS such as the Sierra Club, as they put the needs of snails, owls, beavers, and caribou, above the needs of HUMAN BEINGS. Last I heard, the caribou are procreating like never before, as they love the warmth and shelter which is provided by the Alaskan Pipe Line, the same one which the WACKOS warned us, would prevent the herds from migratring.
And yet, most Americans are STUCK ON STUPID while believing the lies being spewed by these socialists who love to play the class war games.
That's right, TAX THE RICH! You're gonna love us!
While all of the time, they're SUCKING THE MIDDLE CLASS DRY!
As to BEING VERY CAREFUL! What's that Joe, some kind of threat or warning? Obviously, you don't KNOW TOTO very well Joe! I've stood up to the best of our FLORAL INDUSTRY'S SKIMMERS and SELL OUTS for the past 25 years and never backed down from any of them.
After all, I am one of the PROUD, THE FEW! As President Reagan said it best: "Some People spend a lifetime wondering if they made a difference. THE MARINES DON'T HAVE THAT PROBLEM!"
http://usmcshop.grunt.com/Products/Marines/PID-BS40.aspx
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
Where does the IFA wire database originate? Is it made up Teleflora, FTD and 800 member shops' databases that are part of its Ws transfer service?
Do you know that if a shop chooses not to accept IFA orders, then they lose the ability to receive other WS orders as well.
Let me restate, I am more than happy to accept IFA orders, even though I am not a member.
LJVF
Well-Known Member
I'm a new member and find their database to be on the unorganized side. There are shops listed that no longer exist. One of them has been closed for at least 5 years. Some shops are listed twice.
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