WS Petition?

[Dorothy]

I'm reposting (edited) this as it appears it got lost in in a shuffle.

I am interested in what others think about getting a petition going? After all, we are "members" and isn't this something as members we can do? Can this idea work? Can it hurt to try? If nothing else, it would be clear documentation of the membership's valid discontent.

What if a petition among Real Florists WS members was sent to TF and FTD demanding that membership of Send Only "shops" be revoked IMMEDIATELY?

(And if TF and FTD won't do that, then demand that they change the word "member" to "sponsor"....'cause that's all we really are as long as Send Only-ers are allowed to steal the orders through membership)

Has anyone ever asked HQs how many Send Only "shops" are members in TF or FTD? They're not listed in the directory because they can't/don't receive orders. Maybe if Real Florists were privy to this information and finally opened their eyes to these numbers, they/we might think of a way to truly become united and speak out with one voice.

If Send Only "shops" were dropped from being allowed to belong in WS, TF and FTD would still be getting their clearinghouse fees on orders that would finally come back thru the Real Florists.

Many of the Send Only shops would have to basically become Drop Ship, wouldn't they?

We're all being used and abused and there is no real easy way out....other than to just finally say NO, which does take a lot of courage to do.

Meanwhile, I, for one, have been getting real tired of seeing incoming orders from Send Only (online OGs) entities, let alone trying to keep on top of the new ones that keep popping up every day, week, month....

 

[cs1]

Seriously? They are in business to make money no different than us. We have a choice to be a member or not. I don't know why everyone thinks they owe us something. Do I agree with everything they do, no but I also don't agree with everything that Home Depot and Wal Mart do but I still shop there because I need to.

 

[lori042499]

I'm reposting (edited) this as it appears it got lost in in a shuffle.

I am interested in what others think about getting a petition going? After all, we are "members" and isn't this something as members we can do? Can this idea work? Can it hurt to try? If nothing else, it would be clear documentation of the membership's valid discontent.

What if a petition among Real Florists WS members was sent to TF and FTD demanding that membership of Send Only "shops" be revoked IMMEDIATELY?

(And if TF and FTD won't do that, then demand that they change the word "member" to "sponsor"....'cause that's all we really are as long as Send Only-ers are allowed to steal the orders through membership)

Has anyone ever asked HQs how many Send Only "shops" are members in TF or FTD? They're not listed in the directory because they can't/don't receive orders. Maybe if Real Florists were privy to this information and finally opened their eyes to these numbers, they/we might think of a way to truly become united and speak out with one voice.

If Send Only "shops" were dropped from being allowed to belong in WS, TF and FTD would still be getting their clearinghouse fees on orders that would finally come back thru the Real Florists.

Many of the Send Only shops would have to basically become Drop Ship, wouldn't they?

We're all being used and abused and there is no real easy way out....other than to just finally say NO, which does take a lot of courage to do.

Meanwhile, I, for one, have been getting real tired of seeing incoming orders from Send Only (online OGs) entities, let alone trying to keep on top of the new ones that keep popping up every day, week, month....

If someone asked you to stop taking orders from your biggest accounts, because they didn't like them as a business, would you???


If you would lose other accounts, because you stopped taking orders from this one account, would you?

This is what you are asking the WS to do...

They developed those OG's for us way back in the day to funnel the much demanded orders to us the paying shops because this is what we wanted...the OG's realized what good money making it was and laughed all the way to the marketers and out marketed us and out advertised us to the point of no return. Should they do what we ask them now they will then lose membership because they will not have enough orders to send to shops.

The reason this goes round and round is because it is a huge catch 22...just because you are a member of something doen't mean that they must do what you want because you petition..it just makes them well aware that you are not happy...trust me they know all the reasons we are not happy and they are told not to talk about the og's and are told to make up excuses as to why they exist and all that...

The powers that be will just laugh at your petition, just like they laugh at us all bellyaching about this time and time again on chat boards just like this one...The answer is if you don't like the rules, quit and make your own rules or stay a member and folow what you signed on for and don't say you din't sign on for OG's because they have been around far too long for tha story anymore...

yeah they suck but we created that monster a long long time ago..

 

[mcf]

Dorothy, While I applaud your call to action in this instance I doubt it would help. It may help weed out some of the smaller Sending Only operations, but the biggies would still be allowed. FTD & TF make too much money off them to exclude them. I've notice more and more flower shops becoming unofficial sending only shops by placing their minimums at $100+. No way to stop that either.

 

[Dorothy]

I admit it I have a lot to learn about the whole WS and OGs game, that’s why I read all the posts on FlowerChat about this subject.

When I “signed on” with the WS five years ago, no I didn’t know anything about OGs. Didn’t know what they were, didn’t know they existed and didn’t know they were members of the WS.

My shop sent out more orders than it received - still does - and I was advised to stay with the WS for that reason, so I did. As time went on I started seeing the warts in the membership and then I saw it multiply…..

I guess I’m naïve, but how can anything ever change if everyone just sits back and complains about it all but does nothing? Dropping the WS is a huge thing to do for a small florist in a small town when every single shop in and near its town is a member of TF, FTD or both. So if we dropped the wires, for instance, all incoming orders would definitely go to all those other shops. I’m not looking at it from a revenue perspective on incoming – it’s the orders from OGs (who are not florists) and DOGs I have a hard time accepting. But it worries me that by dropping the wire, we also may lose customers in the process.

So, in lieu of dropping the wire, and even though it probably means it’s all for naught, I don’t see how it could hurt to present the big guys with a petition. If nothing else, our concerns will be heard loud and clear, awareness will have been spread to florists everywhere, and where there is litigation underway in the US, Canada, Australia, etc., against OGs who don’t pay the appropriate taxes and DOGs, this documentation would serve to show how prevalent the main issue really is and how detrimental it is to the b&m florist.

I know the WS makes a ton of money from the OGs and DOGs so the chance of the WSs dumping them is slim. It doesn’t make it right though, does it? And well, you never know….

Here’s an example of what could happen:

Recently it was announced that our local TV news station was going to be moved to another city (Victoria) in order to cut costs. The public complained loud and clear against the move. I thought at the time, well, nice but that won’t change anything because it’s been decided. But you know what? It did! Head honchos decided to keep the newscast local, with its local broadcasters. People would have still watched the new “local” news and I’m sure local businesses would have still purchased advertising for the channel. And that’s exactly what would have happened if it weren’t for the people speaking out. So, my point is that to get action you have to take action.

But, hey, if there's no interest, there's no will so I'll let it go.

 

[lori042499]

I admit it I have a lot to learn about the whole WS and OGs game, that’s why I read all the posts on FlowerChat about this subject.

When I “signed on” with the WS five years ago, no I didn’t know anything about OGs. Didn’t know what they were, didn’t know they existed and didn’t know they were members of the WS.

My shop sent out more orders than it received - still does - and I was advised to stay with the WS for that reason, so I did. As time went on I started seeing the warts in the membership and then I saw it multiply…..

I guess I’m naïve, but how can anything ever change if everyone just sits back and complains about it all but does nothing? Dropping the WS is a huge thing to do for a small florist in a small town when every single shop in and near its town is a member of TF, FTD or both. So if we dropped the wires, for instance, all incoming orders would definitely go to all those other shops. I’m not looking at it from a revenue perspective on incoming – it’s the orders from OGs (who are not florists) and DOGs I have a hard time accepting. But it worries me that by dropping the wire, we also may lose customers in the process.

So, in lieu of dropping the wire, and even though it probably means it’s all for naught, I don’t see how it could hurt to present the big guys with a petition. If nothing else, our concerns will be heard loud and clear, awareness will have been spread to florists everywhere, and where there is litigation underway in the US, Canada, Australia, etc., against OGs who don’t pay the appropriate taxes and DOGs, this documentation would serve to show how prevalent the main issue really is and how detrimental it is to the b&m florist.

I know the WS makes a ton of money from the OGs and DOGs so the chance of the WSs dumping them is slim. It doesn’t make it right though, does it? And well, you never know….

Here’s an example of what could happen:

Recently it was announced that our local TV news station was going to be moved to another city (Victoria) in order to cut costs. The public complained loud and clear against the move. I thought at the time, well, nice but that won’t change anything because it’s been decided. But you know what? It did! Head honchos decided to keep the newscast local, with its local broadcasters. People would have still watched the new “local” news and I’m sure local businesses would have still purchased advertising for the channel. And that’s exactly what would have happened if it weren’t for the people speaking out. So, my point is that to get action you have to take action.

But, hey, if there's no interest, there's no will so I'll let it go.

The biggest difference with your analogy is that the station depends on the people who watch to buy the products in the commercials and funds that the commercials provide depend on the people who watch...


Your method would work if there was not anything keeping the florists tied to the WS..we can petition all we want but at the end of the day my signature on your petition doesn't amount to squat because I am tied to the ws for x amount more months and they know that...

Now if 80% of the florists with the WS had independent pos systems, independent websites and independent cc clearing, you might have a game, but I would assume that more than half of the shops have more ties to them than that...good luck with it though...its a big job and your right someone's got to try...I personally would think it is just easier to quit...and get IFA...especially where you send and don't want to recieve...

 

[Dorothy]

Ahhh...the old POS thing...it's starting to make sen$e now. We never bought into that. FloristWare all the way here.... all of this helps me understand. Thank you Lori for all your thoughts/comments.

 

[Excptnl]

I never voted for the equity in ftda....i knew all this would happen and it has happened, and will continue to happen..

 

[Queen of Weddings]

The Question of the day is this??/

Ask your self why people order from the OG in the first place?? When you have this solved, then things will go your way. No petition is going to work,,,If in your own back yard, or the next door neighbor is doing this ask your self why? I will be back later to see the answers on this ,,,

 

[BOSS]

I'm with Queen...

OG's will go away one day. But it will only happen one shop, one town at a time. I do not fill any, so my competition gets them...that's fine with me...cuz...

I'm playing the game to be the Last Florist Standing in my market!

 

[inferno63]

Dorothy,

You mentioned that you are primarily a sender and don't want to fill for the OGs, right? But, you don't want to fire the WS because your are afraid you will lose customers? Could all be true. I don't see your numbers.

Sometimes the reject button is hard to click on but you have to run the numbers and set a minimum incoming and stick to it. Don't fill for OGs and stick to it. Yes, other florists in your area will receive the order and may even fill it.....but remember, it is at their EXPENSE, not yours then. Make the choices that are best for your business and let the chips fall where they may for the WS and OGs. When there is less supply of florists filling for OGs, there will be less leverage that they will have with the WS, less revenue for the WS from OGs, and therefore they fade into the sunset. A petition probably wouldn't work but hit them in the financial statement and they will listen.

I believe that I am the only florist in my county and my delivery area that is entirely WS free. I haven't hurt a bit from not getting those orders at all. As a matter of fact, my margins are bigger, and my take of every order is 100% of the profit. Ironically, I strongly suspect that the direct orders I receive from other florists originated as WS orders into their shops. I fill to value for them and still make money but they pay me, not the WS.

You are on the right track in your decision making. Food for thought......

 

[Eric S]

Dorthy no petition will change anyones mind.

The best practice for all of us is to be aggresive in our own market and just stop filling the OG orders. If you don't want to reject orders and just steer away the junk just raise your minimums and make sure you list a delivery charge.

 

[bloomz]

OG's will go away one day.

I thought you put down the pipe amigo.....what a dreamer

Imagine world peace.....

 

[Doug Munro]

Has anyone out there ever done the math?

Here's a reality check about the relationship between wire services and the companies that this board refers to as order gatherers.

OG's exist for the benefit of the vast majority of WS members.

Most wire service members want MORE incoming wire orders. If you don't believe me just ask your local WS Field Rep, its probably the number one question they answer. "Why don't I get more orders?"

The myth is that the wire services make a load of money off of OG's. So lets do some math

Average Wire Order - $60.00
WS Commission 7% - $ 4.20 (Remember this one)

Sending Bonus Paid - $ 3.25

Wait a second, the wire service made $4.20 in commission and paid $3.25 of that back out as a bonus, leaving them a net revenue on the above transaction of $0.95. That's quite a princely sum.....lol

As well, I would strongly suspect that every OG pays their bill on time to take advantage of the bonus, it would be in their best interest due to the volume of orders they send. However I suspect many smaller members do not either reach the minimum order count for recieving a bonus or don't make their payment on time. So where as the Wire services incur the cost of a bonus on the vast majority of orders originating with OG's , they do not necessarily incur this cost on smaller individual members.

Yes I am aware that the above does not take into account the monthly membership fee, Mercury access fees, etc.. In other words a few hundred a month. The reality here is that the WS would be better off with 20 members rather than 1 OG, 20 memberships versus 1

It also does not count in the $1.25 per order fee that a fulfilling shop pays to recieve an order. But nor should it as this fee would be captured regardless of who sent the order, OG or Florist.

The bottom line is that it is about order count, the majority of members are screaming for more orders, OG's deliver them. At the end of the day it is a small minority of shops that know of or are even concerned about OG's, most just want more orders. Just watch the business cards handed out at any convention.

So it would be my suggestion that you probably do not need to stock up on blank paper for your petition, a couple of sheets would probalbly be enough and still leave room to write an introduction

 

[inferno63]

Doug, I am happy that you are back in this.....

I obviously cannot predict the future or contol it, but would you not agree that if there were no more filler shops that the WS and OG would collapse? And wouldn't you agree that the WS membership is dwindling?

Anyway, maybe I was a rare bird but I didn't ask for more orders from the WS, no not me. I insisted on higher dollar orders. More does not equal more in the WS world. I could hit that reject button while drunk, blindfolded, with all my limbs paralyzed, from 100 feet away and never miss it. It was quick and easy! Sliding membership scales, delivery costs, and per transaction fees ate up those under $75 orders pretty gosh darn fast. However, to give you your rightful dues......I believe that many, many, many filler shops ask for more orders in the mistaken belief that filling more, more, more will get them out of owing the WS at the end of the month. It doesn't work that way.

You might make it worth your while if you filled 49, $100 orders on a small town program without POS, without their websites, without directory listings, etc. But, I am here (having walked in those shoes) to tell you that filling 20, $100 orders is vastly different than filling 50, $50 orders. The first senario actually was a better one for me than the latter.

I may not be a gypsy fortune teller but I can do the math that says:
NO FILLERS = NO OG/WS.

 

[BOSS]

Here's a reality check about the relationship between wire services and the companies that this board refers to as order gatherers.

The myth is that the wire services make a load of money off of OG's. So lets do some math

Average Wire Order - $60.00
WS Commission 7% - $ 4.20 (Remember this one)

Sending Bonus Paid - $ 3.25

Wait a second, the wire service made $4.20 in commission and paid $3.25 of that back out as a bonus, leaving them a net revenue on the above transaction of $0.95. That's quite a princely sum.....

Yo Doug... riddle me this batman...

Average wire order - $60.00
WS Commission 7% - $ 4.20

Sending Bonus Paid $8.00 (FST, FU, and select other OG's, $6.50 to some members)

Wait a second, the WS made $4.20 and paid out $8.00 leaving a negative -$3.80....

Now we know they did not loose money on that order... so how'd they make it?

 

[goldfish]

Dorothy, I think this thread will become one of those WS "debates" (note the double quote) that I usually put into 'ignore.'

So before that happens, here's my question to you.

Are you willing to take an initiative? Are you willing to spend time and energy to write a petition draft, work to gather as many signatures as possible, send it to someone at WS, and follow up with a couple of phone calls?

I'm not going to blame you even if your answer is no. You know what? I won't do it either. I would rather want someone else do it and share the reward, if any, with minimal effort on my part.

There have been a lot of people in FC in the past few years who called for an action. Only a few of them actually took initiatives. CHR did a couple of times, including the most successful petition against 1-800-flower's "free S&H" campaign.

You see, the difficulty of any petition work is that someone has to sacrifice their time and energy for what is most likely unrewarding endeavor.

If you really believe in your cause, I think, unfortunately, you may have to act alone at least initially. Then hope someone might follow.

 

[Doug Munro]

Doug, I am happy that you are back in this.....

I obviously cannot predict the future or contol it, but would you not agree that if there were no more filler shops that the WS and OG would collapse? And wouldn't you agree that the WS membership is dwindling?

Anyway, maybe I was a rare bird but I didn't ask for more orders from the WS, no not me. I insisted on higher dollar orders. More does not equal more in the WS world. I could hit that reject button while drunk, blindfolded, with all my limbs paralyzed, from 100 feet away and never miss it. It was quick and easy! Sliding membership scales, delivery costs, and per transaction fees ate up those under $75 orders pretty gosh darn fast. However, to give you your rightful dues......I believe that many, many, many filler shops ask for more orders in the mistaken belief that filling more, more, more will get them out of owing the WS at the end of the month. It doesn't work that way.

You might make it worth your while if you filled 49, $100 orders on a small town program without POS, without their websites, without directory listings, etc. But, I am here (having walked in those shoes) to tell you that filling 20, $100 orders is vastly different than filling 50, $50 orders. The first senario actually was a better one for me than the latter.

I may not be a gypsy fortune teller but I can do the math that says:
NO FILLERS = NO OG/WS.

Even if all fillers disapeared tomorrow the reality is that wire services or order gatherers are not about to collapse. They would be forced to change their business model for certain. But Proflowers seems to do fine without a network of fulfillers.

It has long been a believe of mine that our industry (retail flower shops) is suffering due to the fact that the consumer has far more choices in today's world when gifting, We as an industry, do not tend to offer great value to the consumer. Lets face it a floral product with a retail value of $100 can have a COG's in extreme cases as low as $20-$25 depending on the shop manufacturing it ( 3x-4x markup, plus labour). Add to this that there are absolutely no standards in either quality of product or design. I am not pointing this out to "poke anyone in the eye" simply as a fact.

Your example speak volumes, lets say that you were the only flower shop in a given delivery area. As a consumer if I wanted to send flowers into that area and only wanted to spend $50-$75 I could not visit my local flower shop and place that order as you would not accept it as a wire order. My options at that point would be to go to the trouble of tracking down your store and calling you directly, choose another gift other than flowers, or heaven forbid uses a direct shipper such as Proflowers. As a typical consumer with no idea what an OG is or the anomosity directed toward them by many florists I would probably choose another gift option or contact Proflowers. Lets face it, as a consumer why would I care about your principles I just want to send a reasonably priced gift and as a retailer you either fill the need or you don't.

The Proflowers model is simple, works on lower margins and based on their sales it appears the consumer has embraced it. A quick search on the internet proves that Proflowers is not alone in this, direct ship sites are everywhere, including FTD.

The bottom line is that the OG's or WS's are not going away, the reality is that there will always be those shops that will fill orders.

My underlying feeling is that we would be a much stronger industry if we just got back to doing business and giving the consumer value rather than worrying about the "other guy" stealing our business of days gone by. As I recall our industry wasted a lot of energy and time wailing and attacking "in lieu of flowers" with no results.

 

[Doug Munro]

This seems to prove my point

Yo Doug... riddle me this batman...

Average wire order - $60.00
WS Commission 7% - $ 4.20

Sending Bonus Paid $8.00 (FST, FU, and select other OG's, $6.50 to some members)

Wait a second, the WS made $4.20 and paid out $8.00 leaving a negative -$3.80....

Now we know they did not loose money on that order... so how'd they make it?

Don't know about the larger bonuses, doesn't seem to make a lot of economic sense. But for the sake of argument, lets use your numbers.

I suggest that the deficit that you point would simply become a cost of doing business for the wire services. Much in the same way as your advertising creates an order acquisition cost for your shop and is a cost of doing business. You could stop advertising and eliminate the order acquisition costs, but where would that leave you. Probably with a lot less orders and in turn less revenue

The wire services need the order counts to satisfy the majority of their members who want to receive orders. Without the order counts they would lose these members who are their source of revenue through membership fees and services.

I recall when AFS (Ameriacn Floral Service) first launched in Canada years ago. They introduced the bonus, and florists were leaving FTD and Teleflora in droves and moving to AFS to get an extra $3.00 per order. That left FTD and TF with no choice but to offer matching bonuses or lose order count. (In fact as I recall FTD held out the longest).

My point here is that in one way florists created this nightmare, now they are trapped in it. The good news is that no shop is forced into being a wire member, they can simply opt out.

 

[Chezbloom]

Au contrair

"But Proflowers seems to do fine without a network of fulfillers."


It was my understanding that Proflowers sends same day orders thru thier company "Just Flowers" and uses TF to do so. Ok, so the OG's all do drop shipping and the florists who continue to fill dOG orders will go out of business. Then you have OG drop shippers and Real florists who deliver arrangements that the recipient does not have to "put together". Seems like a nice balance to me. I don't belive a petition will do squat. The only alternative for my shop was to quit all WS forever and get my site to place in the top 10 Google results whenever possible. Works pretty good.