WS Petition?

[bloomz]

Yo Doug... riddle me this batman...

Average wire order - $60.00
WS Commission 7% - $ 4.20

Sending Bonus Paid $8.00 (FST, FU, and select other OG's, $6.50 to some members)

Wait a second, the WS made $4.20 and paid out $8.00 leaving a negative -$3.80....

Now we know they did not loose money on that order... so how'd they make it?

Boss you know this has been answered before, but put to me simply by a wire service exec -

Every 100 orders sent keeps 4 florists monthly bill paid.

Even if all fillers disapeared tomorrow the reality is that wire services or order gatherers are not about to collapse. They would be forced to change their business model for certain. But Proflowers seems to do fine without a network of fulfillers.

I think FTD is already posturing to do this with their new emphasis on drop ship and bringing class into it - they're envious (who wouldn't be) of PF sales and profits and I doubt it would break their heart to move completely to that business model.

then arrange a simple "link up" just like PF has done for a same day deal with Teleflora. You do all know that 800flowers is a TF member, don't you?

 

[lori042499]

The Question of the day is this??/

Ask your self why people order from the OG in the first place?? When you have this solved, then things will go your way. No petition is going to work,,,If in your own back yard, or the next door neighbor is doing this ask your self why? I will be back later to see the answers on this ,,,

I'll tell you why, they market better than us, they offer better percent off than us, they don't let their customers know that they won't be doing their order like us, they treat the orders as their own no matter where they are going even if they have to lie, they are better at the numbers than most of us, they know the internet better than us, you need anymore reasons....

and when I say us I mean the majority not all...I often hear myself telling customers who are ordering out of town stuff that the arrangement will not be coming from my shop and wonder why I am offering up that info, it is a whole lot easier to just leave it out, this is why i will never have an overabundance of WO orders because I am too honest...If I fail it will be because I was too honest for my own good, sometimes in biz you have to turn a deaf ear and be a tad deceptive....and they all win in that arena..

 

[lori042499]

Don't know about the larger bonuses, doesn't seem to make a lot of economic sense. But for the sake of argument, lets use your numbers.

I suggest that the deficit that you point would simply become a cost of doing business for the wire services. Much in the same way as your advertising creates an order acquisition cost for your shop and is a cost of doing business. You could stop advertising and eliminate the order acquisition costs, but where would that leave you. Probably with a lot less orders and in turn less revenue

The wire services need the order counts to satisfy the majority of their members who want to receive orders. Without the order counts they would lose these members who are their source of revenue through membership fees and services.

I recall when AFS (Ameriacn Floral Service) first launched in Canada years ago. They introduced the bonus, and florists were leaving FTD and Teleflora in droves and moving to AFS to get an extra $3.00 per order. That left FTD and TF with no choice but to offer matching bonuses or lose order count. (In fact as I recall FTD held out the longest).

My point here is that in one way florists created this nightmare, now they are trapped in it. The good news is that no shop is forced into being a wire member, they can simply opt out.

Doug, You are so right about this florists did create this nightmare....way back when we belonged to 4-5 services and wanted more orders from them, well they gave us more orders...they may not make tons of money from the OGS but the ogs are the reason they have orders and the members want orders and the members pay dearly...the more of us that find less use for the ws and leave the harder it will get for ws...ah but now they are getting us with technology, they have found that we need them more for that and have trapped us with this...I am sure they are cooking up more items to trap us with...they know us better that we know ourselves...

Yes I am a memebr and haven't yet figured oiut how to do biz without them and will continue that way for a while more...I rack my brains daily about what the right decision is..it is starting to drive me mad...three years ago I thought I had the florist biz all figured out, but now I doubt if I know anything worth a crap....

 

[Chezbloom]

Lori, don't give them so much credit! I think your figuring it out just fine.

 

[BOSS]

BOSS's Quote of the Day!!!

My point here is that in one way florists created this nightmare, now they are trapped in it. The good news is that no shop is forced into being a wire member, they can simply opt out.

Right on!

___________

Don't know about the larger bonuses, doesn't seem to make a lot of economic sense. But for the sake of argument, lets use your numbers.

For the sake of argument...trust me, there are senders getting that number, there was a time when I was only $1.50 lower...

 

[RWK]

I agree with BOSS on one statement - and Jon on his statement.

BOSS said that one day....one shop at a time....yes, the OG's will go away.
JB says in a nutshell that statement is a pipe dream.

It is a pipe dream - AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHOPS WILLING TO FILL THOSE ORDERS.

When there are NO shops that will fill them......including a shop in Oregon......and they then must either open their own filling stations...or go entirely to drop-ship.

-------------------------------------

Operative words to make the OG's go away - WHEN THERE ARE NO, NONE, NADA, ZILCH, ZERO, NOT THE FIRST ONE SHOPS THAT WILL ACCEPT THAT ORDER FOR FILLING.

 

[inferno63]

They will lose their filler shops one way or another. The ones that DEPEND on them for survival simply won't survive. The others will see imminent death coming and escape their association with them. The ones that are liberated from them and thriving won't speak to them ever again. Either way, filler shops and membership is dwindling and why is that? Exactly why are filling members leaving? They are leaving because they don't make money, have negative cash flow, consider the drop-ship portion as direct competition, and are aggravated with the lack of mutual marketing. Those are the reasons I have heard on FC. Does anyone disagree that the membership is declining? Are numbers still numbers or what? If I plotted it all on a chart, would the trend line not be going downhill? Where's my prozac? The numbers are speaking to me.....help, help!

:hammer:

 

[duanermb]

I agree with BOSS on one statement - and Jon on his statement.

BOSS said that one day....one shop at a time....yes, the OG's will go away.
JB says in a nutshell that statement is a pipe dream.

It is a pipe dream - AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHOPS WILLING TO FILL THOSE ORDERS.

When there are NO shops that will fill them......including a shop in Oregon......and they then must either open their own filling stations...or go entirely to drop-ship.

-------------------------------------

Operative words to make the OG's go away - WHEN THERE ARE NO, NONE, NADA, ZILCH, ZERO, NOT THE FIRST ONE SHOPS THAT WILL ACCEPT THAT ORDER FOR FILLING.

I hate to burst the bubble here, but I agree with Doug, there will always be low margin filling shops in one form or another. As the membership leaves, others (Like Doug's group) will fill in with sweet deals from the WS. He's right, about the fact that these guys are able to do much more than any of us as a single entity. The market will divide, as it already is doing, and there will be some who are on one side of the fence and some on the other. This enemy if you will, is too big to un-trench, and too well equipped.

There ARE new members every day who seem to swear by it. "I am getting one or two orders a day and I am happy, and I love my new POS system".

Point of the matter really is that many are making some money with this, it seems and want it left alone. It just won't be as rosy for them once there is a new florist run network that everyone markets with logos in their storefront, on their trucks etc as they have done in the past for the big guys.

Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that direct to local florist will be the be-all-end-all for distant flower delivery. We can do it better, and for better profit, but there will ALWAYS be competition.

Starting from the wrong impression will lead to disappointment.

 

[bloomz]

Thanks for bringing the little fantasy world back to sanity Duane...

I was starting to see unicorns prancing in my yard, right under the rainbow.

 

[lori042499]

OK, just an observation here...

Since the economy tanked in Septemeber, i have noticed an influx of the rise in membership to TF and bloomnet in my area...6 new in bloomnet and 3 new TF...some are small shops like mine some are medium shops, One is a big shop....this tells me that most florists even one's who previously let go of excess WS will always rely on them for more orders, even if it doesn't make any sense financially...

My orders have gone way down because of the influx of new members, to the point that it is very barely profitable if not unprofitable and put me in a difficult position, I can't imagine that the other shops are making out much better, should this trend continue I will have to make the decision to drop one...and the one I want to drop I can't so i will have to drop the one I make the most money on because my technology is all tied up with the one I am barely breaking even on...

my point here is that even shops with very established biz that know that they will be making very little dollars are falling back to the WS to make up for up for the lost biz due to the economy...for small just opening shops that previously worked for these established bizes it is only natural for them to think along these lines as they have seen that their much respected established bizs did this when they were down and out...it is a cycle of behavior that will continue just like child abuse because it is what we know and to get the guts to go against what you know is very tough...especially when times are difficult...

Last May I was really looking forward to the day when i was done with my obligations and was headed in the direction of ws freedom, but now I am just hoping to hang on long enough to begin growing again...nevermind rising up against the very companies moving my flowers because my local customers are not..

 

[prestonway]

Does anyone disagree that the membership is declining? Are numbers still numbers or what? If I plotted it all on a chart, would the trend line not be going downhill? Where's my prozac? The numbers are speaking to me.....help, help!

:hammer:

I agree that it's happening, but I don't agree as to why...

Do you think MAYBE that the WS want their memberships to decline?

Do you think MAYBE there are member shops that don't make them any money?

MAYBE upwards of 50% of members?

Do you think MAYBE these shops are being "helped" out the door, with fees & non-negotiable (higher) membership fees?

Not saying it's necessarily right...but it certainly "is what it is"...

(now did I throw in enough "maybe's" & "not necessarily's"?...:tongue

 

[RWK]

Unfortunately - I have to agree with most of what is being said......As much as we would LIKE and HOPE and DREAM that the d'OG's go away eventually because of no shops to fill them.......fantasy and reality collide. As much as I want to to go outside and feed my little herd of unicorns that prance about all day spreading rainbow colored poo.....the reality is that they will be here in one form or the other.

Ultimately, I think our own best offense against them is to simply beat them in our own little spheres of influence. If we can capture our local markets.....then we have gone a long way toward defeating them.

 

[Chezbloom]

I think that if thier stratigy is to boot florists out the door, they are doing an excellent job. But I think they make too much money even off of slow shops to boot anyone. But you could be on to something. How agressive are they at sending out reps to get new joiners anymore? Hmmmm

 

[Dorothy]

Like chez, you got me thinking about this too....

Do you think MAYBE that the WS want their memberships to decline?

Do you think MAYBE there are member shops that don't make them any money?

This would be because where small shops belong to more than one WS, the WS that's used for mainly receiving causes a cash flow concern for that WS?

MAYBE upwards of 50% of members?

Is this a guess? How did you come up with this number?

The WS makes money from any member, big or small, whether the member is a send or receive or both shop. They penalize the member who mainly receives and seldom sends, plus they charge transaction fees and all the rest just to be a member.

If what you have said ends up being true, then the idea of trying to force out the OGs and dOGs from membership will be unnecessary and the petition idea would be a total waste of time/energy. BUT, if what you say doesn't happen, the problem still remains for real florist members.... The non florist OGs (can we call them nOGs?lol) & dOGs should not have membership. I sure hope that some day, an alternative association becomes stronger than the Big 3 so that it will be easier for regular florists to make the decision to leave all of the Big 3 (those that want to or think they should). Until then though, it looks like a lot of florists will continue to be held hostage thru fear/confusion and, oh ya, the WS POS.....

 

[BOSS]

Do you think MAYBE that the WS want their memberships to decline?

Back in the day... Bad Bobby stated that he could cover 95% of the zip codes in the US with 9000 florists... and the number I saw back then (2000 or so) looked like he was right...

 

[prestonway]

Back in the day... Bad Bobby stated that he could cover 95% of the zip codes in the US with 9000 florists... and the number I saw back then (2000 or so) looked like he was right...

Thanks for bringing the little fantasy world back to sanity Duane...

I was starting to see unicorns prancing in my yard, right under the rainbow.

...and there'll be green aligators

and long-necked geese

some humpty-backed camels

and some chimpanzees

there'll be rats & cats & elephants

but sure as you're born...

there ain't gonna be no unicorn!!

(my apologies to the Irish Rovers)

 

[RWK]

No UNICORNS ?????? - WAHHHHHHHHH - Now I can't fertilize my yard with the rainbow poopies.

Oh, well, Maybe I get JB to come out and drop a big ole load..... lol ...... or will that just kill all my trees. lol

(just kidding)

 

[Queen of Weddings]

Oh my, well no answers as of yet,,,Well here is my answer and it has been proven in my own shop, When asking customers why they order from the big three" It was I get what I want and a guarantee" Well that was a great answer to me, So I am now using it to my benifit, and I proved to them, I could do it, and I think if you want to you can do the same, and go from there, work with your customers, next door, and all around and they will come to you, not them, No don't put no crazy little thing on the package, stating that the order came from a WS or a OG, it came from you and make it your own order, and get and respect that you want with customers to come to you, with things changing now, you have to and want to chang with it, the wind only blows around not up and down, So think about this statement and make it work for you, and also think as a customer for minute on this, Say I want to order flowers from you at @8am in the morning, are you there to take the order or an after hours number or even an answering machine, or anything? If not then this needs to be addressed as well, when I want something, I want it now not later, but we all know I'm just that way>>>

 

[inferno63]

I agree that it's happening, but I don't agree as to why...

Do you think MAYBE that the WS want their memberships to decline?

Do you think MAYBE there are member shops that don't make them any money?

MAYBE upwards of 50% of members?

Do you think MAYBE these shops are being "helped" out the door, with fees & non-negotiable (higher) membership fees?

Not saying it's necessarily right...but it certainly "is what it is"...

(now did I throw in enough "maybe's" & "not necessarily's"?...:tongue

Preston,

You get a gold star if you can tell me why they keep calling me trying to get me in on a "new great deal" at least once a month. I get calls from FTD and Teleflora every month. That just doesn't fly with your theory. I think you and bloomz are sitting around the same camp fire at night.

 

[bloomz]

That's exactly why I posted a while back about willingness to fill incoming orders increasing, and I am talking from many big florists as well that really should know what they're doing.

I've seen a noticeable rise in desire for incoming

Including myself