Florists Sue FTD Over Bloomnet Surcharge

[theRKF]

Or, you could screw with her and give all the wrong names:

"Oh, these lovely purple roses are called Freedom, and the pink over here are Leonidas." :>

Ryan

PS - Lack of sleep - getting silly

 

[PhillyPhlorist]

Had to interject here...

First, florists who rely on filling incoming orders should be out of business. Their business plan is totally flawed. Filling large numbers of incoming wires and for that matter sending out large numbers of wire orders should really be only a small part of florists business.

SFOX: keep in mind that this is a CURRENT theory on being a filling florist. Up until about 3 years ago, I would back the theory that you COULD make money on wire-in biz - IF you got enough volume to purchase COG at a discounted rate. I.E. - filling for 1-800-flowers/Bloomnet USED to be profitable. I know. We used to do it. The problem is, is that many florists don't know when to fold 'em - before it's too late. Conversations on THIS board played a part in us reevaluating our business model.

In TODAY's florist world, the 'filling model' is a thing of the past, and as you have correctly pointed out, not profitable - UNLESS you are able to keep the volume up. But, in today's world of the Net, keeping wire in volume is becoming increasingly hard to do. Our family business model has been modified - to reduce wire-in volume - with the process starting over a year ago (looking back, a year too late...). We now have seen our largest PROFIT MARGIN on V-day orders in 5 years.

The SENDING part of the model should be separated IMHO, as you do make a profit on sending orders electronically (i.e. - the OG's). But, in our business case, our sending volume has a lot to do where we're located, and the customer segment we have. We do not advertise 'sending' per sei, but offer it as a service to the customer base. Profit generated on sending is a SMALL part of the biz - even with the volume we do. We DO rely on the all sizes of florist to fill our orders - as ANY w/s member. We in turn will fill other's orders. Both of these as a service to the customer - theirs and ours.

- Herb

 

[hcflorist]

SFOX: keep in mind that this is a CURRENT theory on being a filling florist. Up until about 3 years ago, I would back the theory that you COULD make money on wire-in biz - IF you got enough volume to purchase COG at a discounted rate. I.E. - filling for 1-800-flowers/Bloomnet USED to be profitable. I know. We used to do it. The problem is, is that many florists don't know when to fold 'em - before it's too late. Conversations on THIS board played a part in us reevaluating our business model.

In TODAY's florist world, the 'filling model' is a thing of the past, and as you have correctly pointed out, not profitable - UNLESS you are able to keep the volume up. But, in today's world of the Net, keeping wire in volume is becoming increasingly hard to do. Our family business model has been modified - to reduce wire-in volume - with the process starting over a year ago (looking back, a year too late...). We now have seen our largest PROFIT MARGIN on V-day orders in 5 years.

The SENDING part of the model should be separated IMHO, as you do make a profit on sending orders electronically (i.e. - the OG's). But, in our business case, our sending volume has a lot to do where we're located, and the customer segment we have. We do not advertise 'sending' per sei, but offer it as a service to the customer base. Profit generated on sending is a SMALL part of the biz - even with the volume we do. We DO rely on the all sizes of florist to fill our orders - as ANY w/s member. We in turn will fill other's orders. Both of these as a service to the customer - theirs and ours.

- Herb

Interesting. Our experiences, conclusions, and opinions just about identically mirror yours. Only difference is that you are in an area large enough to still make a profit on sending electronically. We aren't.

As for choosing florists for customers who do choose to use us for that, size absolutely does NOT matter. QUALITY and personal attention to detail does matter. And quite often, the biggest have long since moved those two items down the priority list in favor of efficiency. Not always . . . but often enough for us to be cautious and gun-shy about using the big high production shops.

 

[flowerknife+us]

If Florists cannot provide a better presentation of their product over that of the mass marketers. then their is no reasonable expectation that they will be around long.

The valuation of the end presentation has greater impact on its retail value more so than the actual valuation of what it is composed of.

The quality of the end product. be it a one of a kind. Or a one of a kind rendered a hundred times. Each has to have the same appeal to maintain the values asked of it.

The qualities and capabilities of the work force, to provide consistent and
creditable, and accurate renditions are not easily kept and cost considerable sums to maintain. Simply because the work force needs the skill and ability that goes well beyond hiring some temps when it gets busy.

I see a fair share of this massed produced work. At these massed produced outlets that must be done by a slew of mass produced temps. There is no other option than to sell the product cheep.

That is a prime reason I left FTD. Worked to hard to let my product and investment be systematically devalued by them.

The real trouble is the consumer. Their is so much junk in the market. the consumer is getting used to expecting junk. It creates a pyridine where the consumer can be genual impressed when receiving a product from a "florist".

Too many florists do really bad renditions of what should be the easiest product to produce. Your basic round arrangement is too often devoid of any level of distinction. With the distinctiveness falling in a parabolic curve, downward. The more basic the flowers used.

This is an area I feel that opened the door to the mass marketers more than anything. The mass markets found they could compete with a less trained, less capable, and less expensive work force, under factory conditions. and still compete with the perception of florist Quality.

Too many florists seem to get board with the bread and butter of our industry. While never learning that the butter needs to be soft so the bread doesn't get trashed in the process of spreading it.

I think FTD was very well aware of the florists industries capabilities overall. So adding the Supermarkets was really a no brainer.
FTD needed only to analyze their own test order program to fully understand the potential market share.

Why the Industry as a whole compounds the problem by allowing others to take orders for them. From the consumer base that still wishes the precieved valuations florists have the "potential" to provide. The Idea is well beyond my comprehension. I serves no purpose other than to create an entirely additional layer of expense.

The fact that there are discussions on the merits of serving time with either FTD or 1-800 would actually be humorous, if it didn't point so directly to the cause of half their problems of staying afloat.

We are the butter of the Industry. We need to spread it right or many will be reduced to a prisoners diet.

Why issue Butter if no one knows how to use it?

 

[PhillyPhlorist]

As for choosing florists for customers who do choose to use us for that, size absolutely does NOT matter. QUALITY and personal attention to detail does matter. And quite often, the biggest have long since moved those two items down the priority list in favor of efficiency. Not always . . . but often enough for us to be cautious and gun-shy about using the big high production shops.

Agreed. QUALITY & personal attention does matter. Size does not. In fact, we have marked 1st choice several shops in major-market areas AND in rural areas that are very small - sometimes only 2-3 people in the shop - owner included. I know this because some of them I have BEEN to, installing & training Advantage (yes, there are quite a few small shops running Advantage). I had the luxury of seeing their work - back room and all - first hand. When I got back home, they were marked 1st Choice - even if we hardly sent orders to them. At least I knew the work they did.

Also agree that some big shops have forgotten all about the personal attention needed on orders. I would not discount the big high-production shops, though. Sometimes they can come through for you big-time - especially if you have a low price point to deal with on your end. We all have min. out of town $ amounts, and when your at that min. amount, sometimes the larger shop will be the only one able to handle the order.

- H.

 

[sfox]

hcflorist

As for choosing florists for customers who do choose to use us for that, size absolutely does NOT matter. QUALITY and personal attention to detail does matter. And quite often, the biggest have long since moved those two items down the priority list in favor of efficiency. Not always . . . but often enough for us to be cautious and gun-shy about using the big high production shops.

You bring up an interesting problem. First you mention "Quality and personal attention". And then your comments makes it seems that " efficiency" is a bad trait.

What I see facing the indsutry is that while I would like to run that small shop that does one of a kind designs, the consumer is being brainwashed by the mass marketers who are turning flowers, even designed flowers, into a commodity. Oh yes they will pay a little more for that "different" design, but can a flower shop owner make money only getting a "little more" for those one of a kind designs.

The costs of energy to heat, light, power your delivery vehicles is skyrocketing. Taxes are not going down. The cost of getting good help is rising. Other costs like health insurance are out of control. Why do I mention these. Well, making those one of a kind designs is time consuming. Only so many of those one of a kind designs can be made a day and can you really pay your expenses by not using "effieciency".

From what I am hearing around the industry, Valentine's Day was good for most people. But many wholesalers are complaining that they are not getting paid in spite of the fact that florists had a great Valentine's Day. Many are commenting that even with those great sales, many florists can't cover the past due amounts, created prior to the holiday. Today it seems that it takes ever and ever higher sales to to cover expenses and if you limit the amount of production you can do, because of as you describe it "quality, personal attention, one of a kind designs" how will those florists survive once the wholesalers cuts them off.

 

[PhillyPhlorist]

Two things that stuck out here...

Too many florists do really bad renditions of what should be the easiest product to produce. Your basic round arrangement is too often devoid of any level of distinction. With the distinctiveness falling in a parabolic curve, downward. The more basic the flowers used.

And...

I think FTD was very well aware of the florists industries capabilities overall. So adding the Supermarkets was really a no brainer.
FTD needed only to analyze their own test order program to fully understand the potential market share.

If you look at the Teleflora "myteleflora NEWS" for January, back cover, you'll see some test order pictures. Oh my.... THIS is what is being sent?
(and, yes, FTD has it's equal share of this sadness) And, two of these were for CODIFIED items. Now, TEL probably took out the worst of the worst, but the "florists" who sent these out should really take a hard look at their business and the damage they are doing to the industry.

Result: the public is fed up with the crap they receive. Who's fault is that? Ours. (a few bad apples....)

- H.

 

[ANTHYRIUM]

Sue FTD

I have not heard of a formal lawsuit yet but if anyone does, please let me know "I'll sign on!"
FTD has no right telling any florist what wire service they can belong to or penalize them for it.

 

[Rhonda]

And...



If you look at the Teleflora "myteleflora NEWS" for January, back cover, you'll see some test order pictures. Oh my.... THIS is what is being sent?
(and, yes, FTD has it's equal share of this sadness) And, two of these were for CODIFIED items. Now, TEL probably took out the worst of the worst, but the "florists" who sent these out should really take a hard look at their business and the damage they are doing to the industry.

Result: the public is fed up with the crap they receive. Who's fault is that? Ours. (a few bad apples....)

- H.

Sorry, the wire services should terminate those shops who produced those designs PERIOD. Quality Assurance means nothing if there are no inspections and no assurances that the filling shop is Qualified to fill the order.
(sorry off thread topic)

 

[BOSS]

yes they will pay a little more for that "different" design, but can a flower shop owner make money only getting a "little more" for those one of a kind designs.

I think you need to offer both, I would consider my store "high style" or "high end" and we do alot of high style "funky" design, but we still have to offer that basket of daisies too, as we do not want to eliminate any market segment, while at the same time trying to cater to a higher end client base. And yes, efficiency is still important!

making those one of a kind designs is time consuming. Only so many of those one of a kind designs can be made a day and can you really pay your expenses by not using "effieciency".

Not necessarily, in many cases off the wall, fun and funky designs take not only less time, but less product, and sell for a higher return.

From what I am hearing around the industry, Valentine's Day was good for most people. But many wholesalers are complaining that they are not getting paid in spite of the fact that florists had a great Valentine's Day. Many are commenting that even with those great sales, many florists can't cover the past due amounts, created prior to the holiday. Today it seems that it takes ever and ever higher sales to to cover expenses and if you limit the amount of production you can do, because of as you describe it "quality, personal attention, one of a kind designs" how will those florists survive once the wholesalers cuts them off.

I'm hearing much the same with regard to wholesalers, it must be a vicious cycle for them, no flowers-no sales-no pay, flowers-some sales-no pay anyway, tough nut to crack, I have spoken to local wholesalers about this, sometime they just have to cut their losses, but then they most likely will lose the shop.

Yes, today it does require more sales, OR more dollars per sale. We have decided to raise our level of both product quality and customer service, and attack the top of the market, while at the same time attempt to maintain the base that has gotten us this far for decades. Spending money on technology, employee in house training (thanks Tim), sending staff to seminars etc. THese things have raised our average sale, thus the same number of sales generate more dollars.

Now were at the point of contemplating bringing in a world class designer for a private tutorial for the staff, all in our efforts to raise our levels or service, style and quality.

In todays floral world, what used to work rarely does these days outside of outstanding customer service, but alas I fear too few offer it. By educating your staff, they can in turn educate your customer, and that includes design trends/styles. Todays customer from my perspective is more than willing to pay for what they want, but they don;t know what they want until you show it to them, then it's their decision, wether or not they want the basket of daisies, or the glass box, with Hydrangia, Amaranthus, Mini Callas and Roses, which in some cases is only $20.00 more than the basket of daisies we all love to hate.

 

[flowerknife+us]

And...



If you look at the Teleflora "myteleflora NEWS" for January, back cover, you'll see some test order pictures. Oh my.... THIS is what is being sent?
(and, yes, FTD has it's equal share of this sadness) And, two of these were for CODIFIED items. Now, TEL probably took out the worst of the worst, but the "florists" who sent these out should really take a hard look at their business and the damage they are doing to the industry.

Result: the public is fed up with the crap they receive. Who's fault is that? Ours. (a few bad apples....)

- H.

Exactly. Just that i think the problem is worse than we could guess.

In the good old days. When people only purchased from Florists. The problem was there, but confined.

I see the problem clearly growing. Just looking at, and understanding the volume of mass produced product exposed to the public. Clearly shows to me the major decline in skillful renditions. Of anything.

Today, the volume of poor quality goes well beyond anything like it was when contained within.

The sad truth is. There seem to be any number of consumers who seem to care less what they buy. If Looking at the offerings available at the local FTD Super on the 13th are any indication.

I really lament the loss of so many easy to please consumers. I don't see too many of them really ever coming back.

So keeping those who still value our skills need to be protected. Why Florists continue to support those companies who feed off our consumer base is a real mystery.

Florists really suffer from having no umbrella Organization to promote their interests in the market place of Ideas.

Pro Flowers growth can be directly attributed to the simple reality that they pound the airways. all day, every day, day after day. Pushing the consumer to buy their product.

Who would know anything about pro flowers if THEY weren't on the radio. ALL THE TIME?

 

[hcflorist]

Florists really suffer from having no umbrella Organization to promote their interests in the market place of Ideas.

Pro Flowers growth can be directly attributed to the simple reality that they pound the airways. all day, every day, day after day. Pushing the consumer to buy their product.

Who would know anything about pro flowers if THEY weren't on the radio. ALL THE TIME?

I couldn't agree more. Quality florists who are responsible and knowledgeable business people BADLY NEED a nationally recognized umbrella to unite under, promote with, and compete with. But I seriously doubt that it's likely to ever happen.

The only "umbrella" that all too many florists are interested in "uniting" under is one that involves a wire service. And, depending on which kind of parasite they view themselves as, it's either the wire service that can pay them the most in rebates and big sender perks or the wire service that can give them the lowest cost with the most incoming orders.

The wire service industry is an industry unto itself. While many florists continue to be dependent upon it for whatever reason, there is no doubt that the operators of virtually ALL of the wire services either COMPETE DIRECTLY AGAINST ALL REAL FLORISTS or ENABLE AND ENCOURAGE OG'S TO COMPETE DIRECTLY AGAINST ALL REAL FLORISTS. And most DO BOTH.

Given that undeniable fact, reasonable business people looking in from the outside would probably conclude the the RETAIL FLORIST INDUSTRY which so loyally, faithfully, and vehemently SUPPORTS and ENABLES the DIRECTLY COMPETING WIRE SERVICE INDUSTRY must be made up almost entirely of people who are either completely insane or completely incompetent. Certainly, the operators of the wire industry absolutely would agree with this conclusion. And they absolutely DEPEND on this FACT for their SURVIVAL and their PROFITS.

A REAL FLORIST industry that is made up of so many people who are so totally clueless about the things that most effect their own industry and who are so willing to continue to staunchly and vehemently support a directly competing wire service industry has little hope of uniting under its own umbrella for anything.

The majority of florists seems to have the mindset of big city prostitutes. They don't have the self-esteem, confidence, or ability to run their own operations. So they get themselves a pimp i.e. a wire service. And they're content to give the wire service and its affiliates the lion's share of their profits. And, just as many prostitutes have a completely irrational loyalty to the pimps whom they also fear, florists find themselves fiercely loyal to their the wire services which so many of them profess to "hate". And in many cases, I'd say this loyalty and support is based on pretty much the same irrational and illogical "thinking" that prostitutes use to rationalize their continued association with their pimps.

Psychiatrists and Psychologists probably have a name for this rather easy to observe "syndrome". I'd be willing to bet that most of them would make no differentiation in their findings if they did a side by side study of WS Florists and Pimp-dependent prostitutes.

So, yeah. We NEED an umbrella. But I don't see it happening so long as the WS PIMPS whose industry depends on us being willing to COMPETE AGAINST OURSELVES are able to corrall and unite enough of us to MASS US AGAINST OURSELVES ! ! !

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Too many florists seem to get board with the bread and butter of our industry. While never learning that the butter needs to be soft so the bread doesn't get trashed in the process of spreading it.

Why issue Butter if no one knows how to use it?

This is ONE STAND OUT phrasology by Knife!!
So simple it's scary, and as true as it gets.........
Hey Knife.....are florists the bread or the butter..(which gets squished more??)

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Sorry, the wire services should terminate those shops who produced those designs PERIOD. Quality Assurance means nothing if there are no inspections and no assurances that the filling shop is Qualified to fill the order.
(sorry off thread topic)

Not at ALL off topic Rhonda.......the crap coming out of a few shops has painted MANY of us with the same brush....PAYING for "quality assurance" when there IS NONE, is cause for a LAWSUIT!!
I DO HAVE TO TELL YOU, that FTD tests, evaluates, AND kicks out crappy FTD members, AND lists their names monthly in the FTD NEWS bulletins!!
HOWEVER, until WE, or a customers actually FILES a legitimate complaint, FTD has no way of KNOWING about which shops are the scourge!!
CRAPPY FILLING SHOPS have put us ALL in jeopardy...never MIND the CRAPPY SENDING SHOPS that do an ULTRA CRAPPY JOB of taking AND sending orders IMPROPERLY!! (and skimming too!!)

 

[BOSS]

Hey HC and K

Do I take your comments to indicate that you would be both physically and financially behind the construction of such an organization?

 

[goldfish]

<snip>

The majority of florists seems to have the mindset of big city prostitutes. They don't have the self-esteem, confidence, or ability to run their own operations. So they get themselves a pimp i.e. a wire service. And they're content to give the wire service and its affiliates the lion's share of their profits. And, just as many prostitutes have a completely irrational loyalty to the pimps whom they also fear, florists find themselves fiercely loyal to their the wire services which so many of them profess to "hate". And in many cases, I'd say this loyalty and support is based on pretty much the same irrational and illogical "thinking" that prostitutes use to rationalize their continued association with their pimps.

Psychiatrists and Psychologists probably have a name for this rather easy to observe "syndrome".

<snip>

In economics, there's a similar phenomenon called "Prisoner's Dilemma."

<from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/prisoner-dilemma/>

"Tanya and Cinque have been arrested for robbing the Hibernia Savings Bank and placed in separate isolation cells. Both care much more about their personal freedom than about the welfare of their accomplice. A clever prosecutor makes the following offer to each.

"You may choose to confess or remain silent.

a) If you confess and your accomplice remains silent,
I will drop all charges against you and use your testimony to ensure that your accomplice does serious time.

b) Likewise, if your accomplice confesses while you remain silent,
she will go free while you do the time.

c) If you both confess,
I get two convictions, but I'll see to it that you both get early parole.

d) If you both remain silent,
I'll have to settle for token sentences on firearms possession charges.

<end quote>

If you are Tanya, what are you going to do? Your logic goes like this.

If Cinque confessed, you would be better off with confession, in order to avoid a long sentence. If Cinque remained silent, you would also be better off with confession, so that you go free.

That is, no matter what Cinque does, you would be better off with confession. It doesn't matter whether you really committed a crime or not. You would always be better off by confessing your "crime" in this deal if you don't know what the other party is going to do.

Cinque would conclude the same.

The results: Both confess (case c), giving away the clever prosecutor a double conviction.

The sad fact is this is that if Tanya and Cinque cooperated and both remained silent, they could have been better off (token sentence, case d).

Now here's a new version of "Prisoner's Dilemma."

///

"Flowers by George" and "Flowers by Bill" have been struggling to survive in a small town. Both care, quite justifiably, much more about their own survival than about the welfare of the florist industry. A clever salesperson from Wire-Service XXX makes the following offer to each. 'You may choose to join us or remain independent. If you join and your competitor remains out of the loop, you will have to pay a fee, but will get all the incoming orders to this town and the other guy gets nothing. Likewise, if your competitor joins while you remain independent, they will get every benefit while you get nothing. If you both join, you both get 50% of the orders, while I make big bucks by collecting fees from both your guys. If you both remain independent, I'll have to look for some other florists."

What would be the rational choice if you were George? I think resonable people may disagree here.

In any case, Prisoner Dilemma concept can explain many "irrational" behavior, anything from environmental issue to why many florists are paying for TF/FTD internal websites.

 

[BOSS]

"Flowers by George" and "Flowers by Bill" have been struggling to survive in a small town. Both care, quite justifiably, much more about their own survival than about the welfare of the florist industry. A clever salesperson from Wire-Service XXX makes the following offer to each. 'You may choose to join us or remain independent. If you join and your competitor remains out of the loop, you will have to pay a fee, but will get all the incoming orders to this town and the other guy gets nothing. Likewise, if your competitor joins while you remain independent, they will get every benefit while you get nothing. If you both join, you both get 50% of the orders, while I make big bucks by collecting fees from both your guys. If you both remain independent, I'll have to look for some other florists."

What would be the rational choice if you were George? I think resonable people may disagree here.

In any case, Prisoner Dilemma concept can explain many "irrational" behavior, anything from environmental issue to why many florists are paying for TF/FTD internal websites.

Hey Goldfish.... Great post...nothing like making a *splash* with your first one...

Welcome to FlowerChat!!

 

[Rhonda]

Okay, here's the skinny on Bloomnet. (my take)
Former FTD rep calls me last week to get "advice" on the other shops in my area. And yes, I told him to get here, register, etc. He's now working for Bloomnet and I'm sure he already knows my feelings because immediately begins with who should bloomnet appproach in my town. (I am very blunt and outspoken with ALL my reps, current and former) so I proceed to inform him as to the shops here and a few others in other locales. We converse with him trying to interject the "attributes" of Bloomnet.....
I do fill for 800 Flowers WHEN and only when, they give me the money I need and it is for a customer of mine OR a potential prospect I can market my shop to (I do have a "system") and I tell him that plainly. Who do I recommend to fill orders for Bloomnet? Yeppers, I tell him plain and simple, if I was sending flowers to my town, who would I want to fill it, ME but I will not "join" their group and he knows it before he calls me. Hmmmmmmm
During holidays, I don't want to put up their crap first of all, my locals come first. Secondly, I don't like having to ask for delivery charges or more money on 99% of the orders they send through, a waste of time, Thirdly, I don't need another wire service, have access I need now.
So now they will go after a shop which has a part time good designer (has terrible customer service so I've been told by PO'd customers who come see us) instead of just doing as they have been in the past. It's called saturation and that's what they're trying to achieve, just like Teleflora has. Now Teleflora has 3 shops in two towns of less than 8000 people here and of the 3 only one has a "trained" designer. Makes you want to join doesn't it.
BTW as the only FTD shop in this area, if they pick up one more, I'm done with them too. Wire Free and they can charge all they want to the others as out of the 5 of them left, there isn't one that has a clue, yet.

 

[hcflorist]

Former FTD rep calls me last week to get "advice" on the other shops in my area.

And I'll betcha he used that line on every other shop he's called on who he was really trying to sign up. Including everybody else in your part of the world, I'd guess.

Congratulations on being smart enough to refuse to pay your competition for the privilege of helping them compete against you.

 

[hcflorist]

Do I take your comments to indicate that you would be both physically and financially behind the construction of such an organization?

Maybe. But after all the false starts that I've backed and empty promises that I've heard and totally dishonest black hat ripoffs of other honest people's good intentions and money that I've witnessed, I'd have to be convinced before I opened up the bank account or commited any time.

I guess I've found the powers that be of too many organizations that have promoted themselves as representing real florists have been less than truthful, less than honest, mostly self-serving, and totally incapable or unwilling to do what they either claimed they would do or were elected or otherwise appointed or put in place to do.

So, after coming to the conclusion that, in a disproportionately high number of cases, people who appoint themselves to represent real florists or who otherwise manage to get appointed or elected to represent real florists seem to lack the moral integrity to do so without putting their own interests flagrantly ahead of the mission, I'll have to admit that I'm not too anxious to jump up and volunteer to financially support anything unknown after all of the corruption and "mismanagement" of other people's money by a self-serving few that many of us have witnessed since the dismantling of FTD began.

If you've got something to say or promote, show your hand. You'll get no blank check on an "unknown" here.