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I think the reason there was no out-cry then is because at that point the markets were still doing ok, and many people have/had money in the market and saw this bailout as a means to keeping what they had.

But like with so many things, in America... screw me once...shame on you...screw me twice...shame on me...there will NOT be a third time.

People are finally seeing that there is no end to this fiasco if we keep doing the same thing time after time. It's come time to pay the piper and it will be painful. We can not continue to throw good money after bad.

Doing the same thing, and expecting different results... does not work for me, does not work for you and it will not work for this mess.

Sadly, things have progressed to the point that a complete melt-down is perhaps the only way to fix a mess that's been building for decades based on greed and excess.

The bell's are tolling, and the bill has come due. It's time to pay up, and sadly the "little guy" on "main street" like always, will have to bear the burden for the folly of those in power. But that said, we seem to have decided to change the people in power, so maybe we've finally had enough and are willing to suffer some more to finally end up in a place that's better than where we are now.
OK then please explain something to me.

During the election, Obama was painted as the savior. The Democrats were the party of the people. The Republicans didn't get it.

Why is it that Obama and the Democrats are the one's pushing for the Car company bailout?

Why is is that the Republicans who didn't undertsand before the election are against the bail-out, which is where you and it seems everyone else on this board are at?

And lastly, you are ready to pay the piper. Do you really understand how bad this all could get? Are you ready to pay what could be a very steep price for what you say? If things turn as bad as many are saying, it could come to pass that many who now post on this board will not be in business in the near future.
 
If things turn as bad as many are saying, it could come to pass that many who now post on this board will not be in business in the near future.


Could?

No Absolutely will.

That's already happening Fox and nothing is going to change that.
 


And lastly, you are ready to pay the piper.

Do you really understand how bad this all could get?
sfox...personally I have already paid... and it took me years to dig myself out, and I'm still working on it a little bit... I have to be fiscally responsible... why not "Big Business" and our Government?

And, I do think I have a pretty good idea how bad it really could get. I also have a good handle on how bad it really is now...

But I ask you...where do the hand outs stop? The paying out of cash for doing a bad job?
 
Why is is that the Republicans who didn't undertsand before the election are against the bail-out, which is where you and it seems everyone else on this board are at?
Because it's the fastest way to harm/kill the UAW, a powerful supporter of Democratic candidates.
 
[/B]Because it's the fastest way to harm/kill the UAW, a powerful supporter of Democratic candidates.

Sure that's one benefit--but the real reason is that the govt. cannot provide a sucess guarantee for every big company and industry. I think they already realize that the 700 billion bailout was a big mistake, and they are trying to stop the socialism of America before it's too late.
 
Just got a chance to look at the two local newspapers reports on the Automakers' testimony yesterday on Capital Hill.

After a lot of puffery, and dodging the very direct questions, the truth is finally coming out about GM. I learned the following:

In the year 2007, GM entered into a contract with the UAW that created a trust to handle and pay out all retiree health insurance. The first payment from GM is due to the trust fund on 1-1-2010. The payment due at that time is $51 billion dollars!

(I don't believe, from what I have read, that the retiree pension benefits were included as part of this trust agreement. Just retiree health care.)

It was pretty clear from the hearings, and from stated comments, that the UAW is supporting this search for government money because it has now assumed that GM will not be able to make this payment, that is due in 13.5 months.

Also stated by Chrysler is that they need $3 billion in "bridge financing " to continue to pay their suppliers.
the bridge financing could take the form of a government guarantee, similar to what they got in 1979. (Banks would be more willing to lend to them, if the government guaranteed it.)

No mention of retiree legacy costs by Chrysler. Chyrsler also stated that if they enter into bankruptcy because they cannot obtain some form of "bridge financing", then it is doubtful if they will survive as a company, and probably would be forced to liquidate.

No real comments that were noteworthy from Ford.

It is being quietly proposed by both the UAW and the auto industry that these large legacy health and retirement costs be taken over by the federal government -- like right now.

This could mean that the UAW trust fund could become funded by the Taxpayers (You and me!!) to the turn of $51 billion, right now.......or the retirees would be offered some type of government funded health care benefit right now.

It was not clear, from what I have been able to read, what exactly would happen to the pension payments of those already retired....or if GM would still keep the pension payouts & just get rid of the health insurance burden.

And just so no-one says "wait a minute", there is already approved $25 Billion for the automakers for retooling, higher mileage standards, retooling plants, etc (passed by Congress in 2008). Bush has refused to release any of this money to date, even to spend it on what it was supposed to be spent on.

Just thought you'd like an update on where, or where, your tax dollars are headed.......

I think that GM, and the UAW are moving together to get the $25 Billion to fund the Legacy trust.

Cheryl
 
After a lot of puffery, and dodging the very direct questions,
Usually what you get from criminals...especially when they are "caught" with their pants down or a needle in their arm... I know, I deal with them every day...

The truth IS, as shown by the fact that GM alone is short $51BILLION due in 14 months, that all of them have mismanaged what they had.

Yes, the crash of the Big3 will take a lot of other innocent bystanders with them, but I honestly can not condone throwing good money after bad, where it has been shown very clearly that they want a hand out, and no controls on how they use it, and without any plan to go forward and build vehicles that will sell and get good MPG too.

I'm sure the UAW is on the side of the Big3 now that their back too is against the wall and their membership is being cut off at the knees. First time in recent memory I can remember the UAW doing anything to help the car companies. The UAW knows full well, as the Big3 goes, so does the UAW, their only chance for survival is to help the Big3, and they know it.
 
OK then please explain something to me.
Sfox...splain this to me:
Buried in this morning’s Detroit News article on White House support (maybe) for additional bailout bucks for Detroit: news that Chrysler has filed an application with the Department of Energy (DOE) to secure a share of the $25b federal no to low-interest retooling loan program. Showing the reportorial sympathies for which his paper is justifiably known (at least in these parts), the News’ David Shepardson wrote that “it was not clear how much the automaker requested.” In fact, Chrysler is refusing to release this information. I just got off the blower with Shawn Morgan. The ChryCo spinmeister said her employer has “no plans to release the information.” In fact, Chrysler has specifically asked the DOE to keep the information confidential. When quizzed for an explanation, you know, being that it’s taxpayer money involved an all, Morgan claimed the amount of money requested constitutes “competitive information.” Chrysler’s secrecy is hardly a surprise, given that the ailing American automaker’s owned by the Kremlin-like Cerberus private equity group.

Still, it IS our money (for now). Needless to say, TTAC’s putting in a call to the DOE.
Their on Capital Hill asking for a hand out of our money, and hiding secrets at the same time???

Again...WTF?
 
And while you're at it... splain this one to me to Lucy...

All 3 of the Chairmen of the BIG3 flew into Washington today from Detroit... on THREE PRIVATE JETS...

Again...I ask.... WTF?
 
And while you're at it... splain this one to me to Lucy...

All 3 of the Chairmen of the BIG3 flew into Washington today from Detroit... on THREE PRIVATE JETS...

Again...I ask.... WTF?

True - but they were hybrid Jets - Running on a combination of gas and taxpayer's money
 
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What no comments on these point sfox...??

Shhhh everyone....sfox must be napping.....
 
What no comments on these point sfox...??

Shhhh everyone....sfox must be napping.....
Naw, I'm not napping, just amazed. Before the election, I watched yourself and others like bloomzie sing Obama's praises because he talked about healthcare, tax reform and other liberal ideas.

Now I watch the same Liberals talk about how healthcare costs that the auto companies have shouldn't be paid for with taxpayer money.

Is taxpayer funding for healthcare for those who can't afford it NOW any different then funding healthcare for UAW workers who lose it LATER? I don't understand the idea of paying for those who don't have and let those who can't afford it go away. Healthcare, by the way, is one of those large costs that hampers the American car companies from building the kinds of cars the liberals talk about.

Another cost for the American car companies is pensions for it's retirees. If GM gets rid of that obligation, it becomes very competitive with the foreign car makers. But the people that get hurt are the "middle class" that the liberals and Obama talk about saving. Are there different levels of "middle class" that he and the liberals were talking about? Or were the autoworker middle class not being included?

And the bigger question I have is, if we say we shouldn't save this industry, is there any industry we should save? Point, the American public got all up in arms over the Arab's buying up control of some of our ports. Why is this any different? How about Iran buying Los Almos? Or maybe the Chinese buying Exon Mobil?

I'm not for giving the American auto companies any money without strings. But I don't see any better use of taxpayer money then reorganizing a key manufacturing component of our economy.
 
Naw, I'm not napping, just amazed. Before the election, I watched yourself and others like bloomzie sing Obama's praises because he talked about healthcare, tax reform and other liberal ideas.
Ok, let's stop confusing the truth with mumbo jumbo.... for one thing, as far as Obama goes, I only "sang" the platform of change, not the specific point of said change. I challenge you to find a post pointing to a specific program or idea.

And I personally feel there is a huge difference between universal health care and a program to offer it to a specific segment of society, but I could be wrong.

I could care less about their pensions... I don't have one... do you sfox? Maybe they should have pulled their money out before the "investment" went bad.

And since you neglected to answer my direct points a few posts prior, I'll ask again... What about them jets? Spending $60,000.00 on something that could have been accomplished for $1500.00 shows exactly where their mindset is and that they do not deserve a dime of MY money... they have no idea how to handle it.
 
Naw, I'm not napping, just amazed. Before the election, I watched yourself and others like bloomzie sing Obama's praises because he talked about healthcare, tax reform and other liberal ideas.

Now I watch the same Liberals talk about how healthcare costs that the auto companies have shouldn't be paid for with taxpayer money.

Is taxpayer funding for healthcare for those who can't afford it NOW any different then funding healthcare for UAW workers who lose it LATER? I don't understand the idea of paying for those who don't have and let those who can't afford it go away. Healthcare, by the way, is one of those large costs that hampers the American car companies from building the kinds of cars the liberals talk about.

Another cost for the American car companies is pensions for it's retirees. If GM gets rid of that obligation, it becomes very competitive with the foreign car makers. But the people that get hurt are the "middle class" that the liberals and Obama talk about saving. Are there different levels of "middle class" that he and the liberals were talking about? Or were the autoworker middle class not being included?

And the bigger question I have is, if we say we shouldn't save this industry, is there any industry we should save? Point, the American public got all up in arms over the Arab's buying up control of some of our ports. Why is this any different? How about Iran buying Los Almos? Or maybe the Chinese buying Exon Mobil?

I'm not for giving the American auto companies any money without strings. But I don't see any better use of taxpayer money then reorganizing a key manufacturing component of our economy.


I can't help myself, I am with the fox on this one. Lots of fault in the auto industry, lots of blame all around, but who is helped by letting this industry go down?

The truth is American consumers wanted the suvs and the cars and trucks that we are driving. No one forced us into buying them, and they delivered a product we like.

Another truth is that we don't want clean deisel, the product used in many of the cars in Europe, that provides such high fuel mileage, and we don't want the fuel effeicient cars that we claim, or we would we doing it. Our oil/gas issues and dependency in this country have precluded this technology from being brought here, and being widely sold here. Our dallying with ethanol is another poor proposition, which is not going to come to fruition, and is propping up the farming industry.

Lots of American industries get supported by our government, including oil and farming, and it just depends on which way the political winds are blowing as to wether or not we think it is just and fair. Or whose family members and local economies are the most affected.

It saddens me to repeatedly hear about the UAW and the legacy costs, when there are so many more important issues tied to all of this. Cutting on the guys who helped build the industry and the country may seem like a fine idea now, but it won't be so fun when they are not spending money on retail, holidays, or dining out. I have heard so much about the UAW and the "wage", PLEASE someone tell me what the guys at AIG are making? Because they are not out on the street justifiying their paychecks.

The three separate planes was stupid, selfish, a complete misjudgement, and horrible PR for the companies. However, those thousands of dollars are nothing compared to the money that is being talked about. It is, unfortunately a way to pander to the public, evoke false outrage, look good infront of constituents, keep "news" people in jobs, sell commercial air time, and make much ado about nothing. And do nothing.

Those hearings did nothing for our country, our consumers, our industry, or our economy. And that's the real cost to our legacy, and maybe our future.
 
Ok, let's stop confusing the truth with mumbo jumbo.... for one thing, as far as Obama goes, I only "sang" the platform of change, not the specific point of said change. I challenge you to find a post pointing to a specific program or idea.

And I personally feel there is a huge difference between universal health care and a program to offer it to a specific segment of society, but I could be wrong.

I could care less about their pensions... I don't have one... do you sfox? Maybe they should have pulled their money out before the "investment" went bad.

And since you neglected to answer my direct points a few posts prior, I'll ask again... What about them jets? Spending $60,000.00 on something that could have been accomplished for $1500.00 shows exactly where their mindset is and that they do not deserve a dime of MY money... they have no idea how to handle it.

Since you asked, I'll answer.

First, you comment about national healthcare. I think that while the idea sounds great, once a plan is on the table, it will draw all kinds of critics. If you allow some people, like the rich Hollywood types, to keep the healthcare they have, it will bring about comments such as the rich get special treatment. If you made it mandatory for all like in Canada and don't allow any outside use of private money, those rich Hollywood types will fight the plan tooth and nail because it impacts their own care.

Second, not caring about someone else's pension is against all liberal ideas. UAW workers are "middle class". And your point about a pension, yes I have provided a SEP plan for myself and my employees.

As far as the jets are concerned, if they arrived in Washington, flying coach on Southwest, and sat behind the table wearing torn jeans and plaid shirts, what kind of image would that project? I'd bet a Congressman would have commented that anyone traveling and looking like that most likely wouldn't be able to pay back such a loan.

Boss, you focus your hate on small issues like private jets the CEO's of billion dollar corporation travel on and what kind of wine the President serves.

Look at the bigger issues. If manufacturing dies in this country, what kind of good paying jobs will be left for the millions of people who don't have MBA's?

In bloomzies area, the workers at Boeing struck the company at a time of big trouble in this country. The left coast feels insulated from the pain of the midwest and because they have none, have no feelings to help out. The Federal government gives Boeing billions of dollars every year so that the unions in that area can strike.


Let's turn the argument around, why should my federal tax dollars go to fight fires on the Left Coast to protect stupid peoples homes who live in a area that from beginning of time, has been a place of wild fires? Let those Hollywood stars who chose to live in an area that will burn protect their own homes. If it's good enough for the Midwest to tough it out, let them pay their own bills. Let an earthquake happen, let them pay for it. They know that they live in a place that will some day fall down, why should any of others tax dollars pay to let them live there?

Arguments like the above could be made all day, but in the end all that does is divide people, rather than solve problems.



 


Let's turn the argument around, why should my federal tax dollars go to fight fires on the Left Coast to protect stupid peoples homes who live in a area that from beginning of time, has been a place of wild fires? Let those Hollywood stars who chose to live in an area that will burn protect their own homes. If it's good enough for the Midwest to tough it out, let them pay their own bills. Let an earthquake happen, let them pay for it. They know that they live in a place that will some day fall down, why should any of others tax dollars pay to let them live there?

Sfox, I don't think they should. I agree, build a house someplace stupid, it should be your problem, not mine. And that does not only apply to the left coast, same thing goes on Hilton Head too...

And for the record, I don't "hate" anyone or anything, and I like torn jeans!

The private jet issue just shows how much lack of common sense these 3 people have. Yes the media is using it to stir up stuff, but honestly it does show just how bad their judgment really is. Why do you think they should be trusted with billions of our tax dollars, when they can not even run a company at the break even point, but they can, and still WILL take million dollar sallaries?
 
If manufacturing dies in this country,


I thought it already did!

Except for the auto industry, what else do we actually manufacture except for a few select lines, like Viking stoves and a few others only the Hollywood elite can afford?
 
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The private jet issue just shows how much lack of common sense these 3 people have. Yes the media is using it to stir up stuff, but honestly it does show just how bad their judgment really is. Why do you think they should be trusted with billions of our tax dollars, when they can not even run a company at the break even point, but they can, and still WILL take million dollar sallaries?[/quote]

I don't know that they should be trusted, I just don't know what the alternative is. It does not look good.
 
The private jet issue just shows how much lack of common sense these 3 people have. Yes the media is using it to stir up stuff, but honestly it does show just how bad their judgment really is. Why do you think they should be trusted with billions of our tax dollars, when they can not even run a company at the break even point, but they can, and still WILL take million dollar salaries?
Common sense you say. Well let's do a little history.

The unions were formed in the 30's during the terms of that great liberal President Franklin D Roosevelt. In the beginning they had a very good purpose. Over time they became the great proving ground for liberal ideas, health care, pensions, guaranteed annual wages, etc.

But like any good idea that is taken too far, it became a problem itself just like the problems it tried to solve. But it stood out as the pinnacle of what middle class working people could achieve.

But over time, their gains outpaced that of most average working people and so the downtrodden worker of the 30's became the overpaid slob of the 90's.

Now add into this equation the feeling of average Americans that while they wished to have those same gold plated benefits and wages enjoyed by the auto workers, they felt that they were somehow being left out and therefore had no obligation to support the very people they wished they could be.

Now you add to this mix a government that saddled big businesses, like the auto companies, with laws that inhibited them from shedding those unions and high priced workers and well, you have the auto companies of today.

I agree the US auto companies have a problem, But the solution should be that the govenment that nurtured the unions and the companies into the situation they are now in, should work together to solve those problems. But there is a big problem, politics.

Democrats can't be seen as turning their backs on the unions who donate millions to their elections and also vote. And if they do, it sends the wrong message to other workers that these Liberals might not be the best choice for them to support. And keep in mind the message these liberal Democrats keeping harping on is that they stand for the best interests of the workers, they are the party of the working man, so they paint themselves as standing up to corporate greed.

The Republicans on the other hand, don't want any part of helping out unions. And they believe in free markets, let the market decide. That is actually the better of the two arguments, but it ignores the very real pain that will be placed on millions of families due to their actions.

There needs to be middle ground. You can't get corporate auto execs out of those private planes, by yelling at them. You become their partner and demand that the dollars you lend them be used for specific purposes, and items like private jets are not one of them, and at the same time, spare average Americans the pain of being allowed to drift into a sea of joblessness.
 
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