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Cheryl you said, very well, what many have thought for a long time. Every time an auto company went on strike, most of my friends had no sympathy for them. We talked often about how, down the road, the greed would jump up and bite them in the butt.

I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of so many because it affects even more... but in truth it had to be seen as coming down the pike eventually.

V
 
I've just hired back a young woman who worked for me when she was in high school. She left me then to take a job paying $16 per hour, fantastic pay for our area. That company began laying off employees about a month ago. She would be out of work for a week, called back for a day or two, then out again. She came to me asking for a few hours a week.

Last week, the employees of that company were called in and told that no one could work more than 32 hours a week, insurance benefits cut, vacation time will still be given, but without pay. She's been looking for a full time job ever since, because I can give her only a few hours per day, and I really don't need her but am just trying to help her a bit.

Her company makes liquid fuel lines for Chrysler and Ford (?).
 
Reading the posts, it seems everyone is focused on punishing the American auto companies. Let me get this right. These companies paid top wages. They gave top benefits. They gave top notch healthcare. They gave great pensions. They created a huge pool of middle class families for over 60 years now. And because they did this we should punish them. I thought this was the goal everyone had for all American businesses?

Now before everyone jumps all over me, were there excesses? SURE. But now that these companies are on the verge of failing, do you punish them for their past sins or do we move to support them and stop the economy from sinking even deeper into the abyss.

If they fail, they will drag down millions of jobs with them. This will affect all parts of this economy with the ripple effects. Plus if they fail, it will drag down the parts supply system for the foreign car companies who build cars here in America.

Changes are need at the Amercian car companies, but letting them fail is a choice I think people should reconsider.
 
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Cheryl... no red's from me... thanks for the added information, and yes, I too feel they should pay their own way. That said, these folks we're promised one thing and are apparently getting another. In my opinion the auto industry should be allowed to fail, and rebuild itself.

I think I'm going to speak to my Congressman, and see if I can't qualify for some of this bailout money. What's the difference? I have employees too... might be cause for a class action against the Federal Government... we're businesses too.

This problem is so huge, nothing will slow the train.... Octobers foreclosure numbers:

84,868 Foreclosures finished
279,561 New Foreclosure Fillings

Just for October.... <shaking head>

Hey Mark,

Join The city of DETROIT they are going to ask the fed for 10 billion to bail them out......

I also read Cheryl's post and can see the other side. My dad is a GM skilled trade retiree and a lot of what you write is not his story. My folks have big co pays, big deductibles and when my dad began getting SS his pension was decreased accordingly.

Yes, he made a comfortable living but he also is Deaf from plant noise has terrible knees from standing on concrete 6days/52 weeks for 33 years.

I find it really sad that we all blame the employees and the unions for getting middle class wages for the working class. Right or wrong, good or bad Unions in the past have gotten ALL of us better working conditions in every industry. Was there greed? Sure, but look at the financial industry now, or how about the Enrons any greed there?????

Look at Wally. They fight tooth and nail to keep unions out of their stores and look at how they treat their employees. It could be that way everywhere

We should be fighting tooth and nail to get some affordable insurance for all of us - the small business self employed working stiff, instead of playing the blame game. Playing that game keeps us focused away from the important issues and that is just what lobbyist's, politicians, the "Jack Abramoff's" want so they can continue on getting theirs while the rest of us get the crumbs.
 
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Sfox,
I agree with you that the Auto manufacturers offered great pay, and great benefits, and all of america benefited. I am not bent on punishing them. I drive American cars, and am proud of the American workers and the economic prosperity this industry has helped to create.

However, Many years ago, the foreign manufacturers began to make inroads in the auto industry. (Honda, Toyota, Kia, and others). All built US plants, with lower wages, and lower benefit costs.

The Vehicles they build are: lower in # of styles/categories (for instance, we don't have the same platform building 30 different models of cars at Honda ).

When offered the opportunity to retool, regroup and downsize, the american auto industry said NO WAY, ......the consumer wouldn't buy it.

Guess what? The CONSUMER DID BUY IT -- BUT FROM A FOREIGN MANUFACTURER!

Costs continued to escalate.....and the escalation continues to all areas of their business....and there has not been any real legitimate retooling or downsizing.

Unions have a played a big part in this.

(And before you jump all over me, my father is a retired UNION carpenter....I worked in & for union based companies for over 25 years). I am from Pittsburgh, Pa, where some of the hardest fought battles over wages & benefits in the coal, iron and steel industry were ever fought.)

Along the way, and maybe from the very beginning, the Unions and managment have become "friendly" adversaries. To avoid a strike, or work stoppage, the companies have given in to virtually all union demands. And the Unions have demanded more....and more.

I am a firm believer that people should be paid well for what they contribute to the well-being of the company. People should have adequate health care, into retirement. People should have money to retire with.

Does that mean that each person should receive 13 weeks paid vacation every 5 years? NO, not in my book. But that was one of the things that the STEEL indstury gave to its union members, that carried forward for many, many years. If 4 people qualified for that benefit in 1 year, then a 5th person had to be hired to do their jobs while they were off....adding to the Union membership roles! Thus, an increase of 25% of the steel workforce in about 5 years time.

Similar benefits to the above also exist in the Auto industry.
And the UAW has no interest in reducing or giving back any of those benefits now, even if it would keep a plant open, because it could POTENTIALLY CAUSE THEM TO LOSE FUTURE MEMBERS.

I am not saying that there is not help needed in the auto industry.
They are in a mess right now.
But, when do the MARKET FORCES take control, and force, thru Supply and Demand, changes that need to happen?

When do the UNIONS and Management sit down together, and fix their own messes?????

I think the government bail out only masks the problems......and allows people to continue doing what they have always done in the same way they have always done it.....without actually seeking a better way to operate.

If GM, ford or Chyrsler are allowed to fold into bankruptcy, then it will happen. Every union contract will be forced to be re-examined; every plant operation will be looked at, and possibly be redone. Every benefit with be negotiated with the strong arm of the government overseer.

I think we all, in every industry, and I classify florists as a manufacturing industry, need to examine each and every day:
What we are doing, How we are doing it, How many people do we need to do it, and last....is there a less expensive way to do it.

And before someone rips into me, I do not, in any way, resent the steel, coal, auto or other manufacturing industry. They paid me well, while I worked there, and also helped to pay for my education.

I do think that the blinders need to come off, and people need to realize that there is no free lunch any more.

You should also know that I live in a city where the Transit union makes over $25.00/hour, and is threatening a strike (work stoppage) on 12-1-08......because a 3% raise in pay is not enough, and a some small deductibles, and paying part of their health insurance is too much to ask!! These guys are bus drivers, and trolley operators, making over $55,000/year + overtime on an average.....Some making as high as $100,000. (& I am not talking about management people.).

My family came thru the great depression.
I am a survivor.

I think the auto industry and its employees have forgotten how to dig in and survive. It's too easy to cry wolf, and hold out your hand.

Like Mark said, maybe we should all call our Senator, and ask how we can get some of this bailout money......I could sure use some, and I'm sure many others in the floral industry could too.

Regards,
Cheryl
 
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I don't want to debate the "why they are in this mess" for the auto companies. Plenty of blame to go around. I just hope we don't nationalize the industry. The government never runs anything better.

The reality is, I don't think we can let them fail. It's just too big of a segment of our economy. I'm hoping for some government guaranteed loans rather than to buy part of the companies.

I'm not convinced that any of the people in government know what they are doing anyway. Now they are saying we don't really need to buy the troubled assets like we said? Last I heard they were saying we have just a few days and the whole economy collapses. Now they are saying, Just kidding?
 
Last I heard they were saying we have just a few days and the whole economy collapses. Now they are saying, Just kidding?
I thought that was happening this coming Monday???:itchy:

For the record... I do think the Unions "HAD" their place in the auto industry, but that was back in the days when the workers were being abused down in Flint and elsewhere.

I know several guys, that used to go to work at Steering Gear in Saginaw, or the block plant, work an hour, walk out and hop the fence and go home or to the bar, only to return for the last half hour of the day or even better yet, have someone else punch them out. They could not be fired because of the Union.

Yes, if they fail, it will mean millions of jobs, but hell, we already have that... where is the accountability?? I'm not allowed to fork up and get bailed out!
 
Kristine:
I am not bashing the Unions.....My Dad is a union retiree.
My Dad also has a hearing loss from WWII Navy ship, and Bad knees & a very bad back & shoulder from working as a union tradesman for 50 years! Hard work takes its toll on all of us...me included, as do genetics.

My point is just that, as a student of history, and of industrial policy & law, there is a mechanism that can help the auto industry, and it apparently is about to be used again.

Under President Jimmy Carter, in September, 1979, Chrysler Corp petitioned the US government for loan guarantees that totaled about 1.5 Billion $$. The government reluncantly gave the guarantees, but also forced the biggest restructing of any one company in history. THE LOANS WERE ALL PAID BACK, WITH INTEREST in the 1980's. Lee Iaccoca was brought in to head the company, and turn the ship around, and he did. Along the way, he streamlined the # of vehicles being offered, produced the Caravan, and retooled and moderinized a entire engineering and manufacturing process.

In order to get the money, Chryler and the UAW had to agree to many things.

GM and Ford stood by and watched, and apparently did not learn anything from this tough lesson.

Now, about 30 years later, Chrysler has been sold (merged) and recently resold to a FINANCIAL outfit. They are in trouble again, along with Ford & GM because apparently the hard learned lessons from the past 30 years have been easily erased from the memory banks.

I also worked for a while at GMAC finance...processing car loan apps when the 0% financing or 1% financing was in its hay-day. I can tell you that, just like housing & mortgages, people have been getting car loans for a long, long time with little to no money down -- vehicles being almost given away -- just to move the product.

(sort of reminds me of the 27% discount on a wire in order)
and we wonder what went wrong.......

I find myself asking this question often lately:
When did it become a GOD GIVEN RIGHT that just because you live in America, and go to college you are ENTITLED TO a $30,000 or $40,000 per year job, with all the bells and whistles, when you have no experience, and have no immediate plans to get any??

This, for me, has become a generational issue. My youngest sister is 45. She graduated from college, with a high GPA, and an attitude that "we owed her" a good job......and was mad that the starting salaries offered to her were not what she thought she should make. She, as are many in her age group, EXPECTED to start out HIGH, and GO HIGHER. Doing without, or working hard to get it, are just not in her mindset.

My Nephew who is 23, on the other hand, has understood how hard his Mom works, and has worked equally hard to get what he wants. He however, has wisely chosen his jobs, with summer internships, after school jobs to pay bills, etc. He will graduate in May with a BS, and already has a job in hand. Many of his classmates have done the same thing.

so, there is a group of people from 22 to 45 who think the world owes them........

Until we can help to get peoples' thought process out of the "entitlement" "you owe me" way of thinking, little to nothing will change. How do we accomplish social engineering overnight??

Unions, over the years, have brought us many, many good things. They have helped to change the world and make it a better place. Today, they could step to the plate and again help to make a difference. It will mean putting aside egos, and petty differences, and work for the good of man-kind -- not just an individual union or union membership.

change is hard.....people have been living way, way beyond their means. People have stopped asking how much something costs. Instead, they ask "how much is the monthly payment?". Until they think again (and that is companies and people) about the TOTAL COST OF SOMETHING, NOTHING WILL TRULY CHANGE. We will just keep putting out forest fires, and the fires will keep comping back.

The world, as we know it, is changing. How anyone survives is totally dependent upon who well each individual or company adapts and changes, and how rapidly they do it.


just food for thought.

Cheryl
 
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Good stuff and thank you Cheryl I'm learning a lot here...
 
My point is just that, as a student of history, and of industrial policy & law, there is a mechanism that can help the auto industry, and it apparently is about to be used again.

Cheryl, I am your student. What informative posts you have been writing. Thanks for teaching us the "Real Deal" on the auto companies and unions.
 
Frank, and others,
Thanks for the nice comments.

I am no professor....just an avid reador and a long-time history buff.

I read many, many things, and many stick in the somewhat useful trivia brain that I have. We should teach HISTORY in school again!!

I periodically try to make sense of it all, and put it all in a logical sequencial perspective.

My opinion is not the only opinion out there. There are many others....some similar to mine, some vastly different.

My varied and wide-spread experience has also allowed me to put the experience in a thoughtful context.

(Standing joke with me husband, and he regularly asks me, is what I want to be when I finally grow up or get old??)

Bottom line, for me at least, God and Man helps those who at least try to help themselves!

Cheryl
 
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Cheryl,
What a great synopsis. You have so much knowledge to share and I appreciate the fact that you are posting so many of your thoughts.
CArol Bice
 
Cheryl,
What a great synopsis. You have so much knowledge to share and I appreciate the fact that you are posting so many of your thoughts.
CArol Bice
I always feel lame in this, but DITTO.

Such lessons to be learned ..... thanks for this discussion!
 


If they fail, they will drag down millions of jobs with them. This will affect all parts of this economy with the ripple effects. Plus if they fail, it will drag down the parts supply system for the foreign car companies who build cars here in America.


Not necessarily. Going bankrupt and seeking bankruptcy protection are two different entities.

GM won't cease to exist, it will continue, just under protection from its creditors. see the airline industry.

Two point to consider.....

A weak dollar makes certain of these companies prime targets for takeovers from foreign companies, i.e. Anheuser-Busch.

The money has not gone away. The money used to build the houses, the cars, to maintain union retirees' healthcare and pensions has not gone away, it has just moved into someone elses' bank accounts. the key is to get the money back. Much has moved off shore. So, everyone in the U.S. needs to start thinking about how to get it back.

Building things is a good thing.

Paying for those things in cash is even better.

joe
 
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I agree with Joe...

One thing that is already happening, is that garage's that service cars (off warranty) are busier than ever as people are more and more fixing what they have over buying new.

Parts store...same thing. They are opening like rabbits breeding.

Job shifts from one place to another will stabilize many of these people, yes they may have to work for a repair shop over a dealership...so be it.

Greed got them to where they are...let them eat their cake. They should have been building fuel efficient cars decades ago... I mean we can put a man on the moon, and a rover on Saturn, and we can't build a car that gets 40 MPG....please...gimme a break.
 
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Cash is good. Cash is becoming my mantra. I've worked very very hard at getting a "triple A really great credit rating" (according to my banker). It has not been easy after my divorce. But bit by bit, piece by piece I have lowered my debt load to a manageable and even light at the end of the tunnel one ($10,000). I'm very proud of that.

If I can't pay cash, then I don't buy it... period. That's not to say that down the road I won't take a great trip on my line of credit, but at the moment, I'm concentrating on lowering the debt further.

I live a pretty austere life, so hunkering down for a bit longer won't seem that different to me. ;)

V
 
I agree with Joe...

One thing that is already happening, is that garage's that service cars (off warranty) are busier than ever as people are more and more fixing what they have over buying new.

Parts store...same thing. They are opening like rabbits breeding.

Job shifts from one place to another will stabilize many of these people, yes they may have to work for a repair shop over a dealership...so be it.

Greed got them to where they are...let them eat their cake. They should have been building fuel efficient cars decades ago... I mean we can put a man on the moon, and a rover on Saturn, and we can't build a car that gets 40 MPG....please...gimme a break.
Boss, it's not greed that got them into their mess, it's the "AMERICAN DREAM". Americans dream about the nice house, two cars in the garage, kids going to college, nice clothes. GM and it's unions gave millions of Americans that dream. But it came at a price.

The cost of labor made building small cars unprofitable. It's not a matter that the companies couldn't do it, it's a matter that they couldn't do it and make money. Need an example. How about florists not being able to sell flowers at the same price ProFlowers does. Now florists can match ProFlowers prices, it's just that if they do they don't make money.

As far as bankruptcy is concerned, just look at Delphi. It has been in bankruptcy for years now. Most of the jobs that were held by American workers are now gone and being done overseas. It's the only way the company can make money. And yet even as of today Delphia is unable to emerge from bankruptcy.

I am not a union fan nor am I a big fan of the American cars companies. But I do realize that letting them fail and go into bankruptcy will lead to millions of jobs losses at a time this country can't afford any more. The pain will be felt by all.

What I am surprised at is that your business is located here in Michigan, do you really think that Midland is immune to the effects of something like this? Actually the effects would be felt all over this country. Florists sell an item considered a luxury. Does everyone on this board feel that their business would not be affected by something like this?
 
Sfox... you may not believe this, but you and I agree on many points... save a few...

"American Dream"... GREED! Bigger is better, more than enough is not enough... The dream today is not the same as it was in 1950!

And no sfox.. Midland is not immune, we too are feeling the bite just like everyone else, it just takes longer to get here than it does elsewhere. But believe me, it's here.

I just watch Senator Chris Dodd, head of the House Banking Committee on CNN. Now Mr Dodd is a smart man, but thinking that giving GM $100BILLION dollars and expecting them to change their ways is ludicrise. GM will not change and neither will Ford.

The Big3 knew that their actions were leading them down the path to distruction years ago, and they had the ability to change but refused to do so, expecting to be able to get a government hand out (bailout) once they ran out of options.

There is no "quick fix" for the mess we're in. Allowing the current system to fail *may* be the best option, forcing companies to become efficient, and producing quality, usable items, while at the same time the country realligns itself with solar/wind power, local oil, and other programs to make our country self-sufficient, as we should be.

Will it be painful...of course...but then again... it already is.
 
Cheryl...a tremendous use of common sense and clarity..bravo.
Sfox...yes, the car makers WERE, and STILL ARE the single most important industry we HAVE, HOWEVER, when a 3rd of a cars value is advertising, and union mandated "perks" it's gone overboard, and auto executives making horrendous SALARIES AND BONUSES, and adding that cost to the bottom line of the cars that we can NO LONGER buy, or trust, makes THIS the VERY TIME to let them fail, at THEIR OWN expense.
BOSS......it's a long road to Tipperaray, don't be so quick to point fingers at the automakers, and the dream of the buying public.....thgis economic mess was coming, we KNEW it, we "banked" on it, yet hardly ANYONE prepared for it, and whether you're in Midland, or Scottsdale, we're gonna look like Cuba soon, with millions of 20 and 30 year old cars on the road, and NO MONEY to fuel them.
Victoria, good for you....you made hay, with the limited resources you had in your pocket, and did what EVERYONE should have been doing, at that IS, living within your means, and paying down debt, and the credit rating such as yours and mine, WILL STAND as reminders of who it IS, that REALLY "gets it"....
 
Sfox... you may not believe this, but you and I agree on many points... save a few...

"American Dream"... GREED! Bigger is better, more than enough is not enough... The dream today is not the same as it was in 1950!

Will it be painful...of course...but then again... it already is.

Boss, if you really believe what you are saying..............THEN HANG ON TO YOUR ASS, BECAUSE YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHIING YET!
 
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