FTD: The good, the bad, the ugly???

[CHR]

OK.... so where DO the rebate dollars come from?

AFS was forced to sell to TF more than a decade ago when they couldn't get enough income from florists to afford the rebate deal they made with 1-800.

Soenen almost smirked during a shareholder conference call when FTD 'lost' BloomsToday (FST) to BloomNet. Volume dropped but net income increased - and he plainly stated FTD had been "losing money" on their deal with FST.

If the rebate dollars aren't paid by filling florists, where do you think they come from?

 

[bloomz]

Randy - I seriously think you (and Cathy) know very well that you can't remove the senders rebate from the filling florists value...

You're taking $7-10 off that order value that comes from elsewhere.

Lots of "intangibles" in where that rebate money comes from (different discussion), but it is not the filling florists order value.

Remove that rebate cost to the filling florist and put it where it belongs and we do have simple 3rd grade math.

Or, give me that refresher course and show me how the filler pays it (membership fees? not paying their bill on time and not getting a rebate theselves?)

Here's my math, for the sake of discussion

Sender gets $15 (service) $10 (20%) wire gets $3.50 (wire fees incluing 1.50 for FTO)

$65 - 15 - 10 - 5 (aha, wait, we have FTO fee of I think 1.50 now.) so 65-30 = ???

drum roll....

well, you know

also for the sake of discussion I know and have always claimed that the consumer looks at the gross so you're absolutely right in this is what they get for $65, not $50.

In my shop - they get a $40 arrangement. And I made some money on it.

 

[RC in Dayton and Cincinnati]

Rebate and incentives are real. They are paid out and come from somewhere.

If you want to blow through the smoke and mirrors just follow the money.

 

[CHR]

Randy - I seriously think you (and Cathy) know very well that you can't remove the senders rebate from the filling florists value...

Why? It's an indirect expense as a result of buying the orders. Make no mistake, they are being "bought" from large OGs with rebate dollars by the WSs and resold to the filling shops.

You're taking $7-10 off that order value that comes from elsewhere.

Do you believe local florist dollars ultimately pay for the rebates?

Lots of "intangibles" in where that rebate money comes from (different discussion), but it is not the filling florists order value.

Sure it does. Ever notice how the less percentage of incoming orders a florist fills as a portion of gross sales, the more flowers they generally provide to local customers, dollar for dollar? They don't need to buy discounted incomings by charging higher prices to folks in their own neighborhood.

 

[TOTO]

Oh, that's how it works then!

Why? It's an indirect expense as a result of buying the orders. Make no mistake, they are being "bought" from large OGs with rebate dollars by the WSs and resold to the filling shops.

Do you believe local florist dollars ultimately pay for the rebates?

Sure it does. Ever notice how the less percentage of incoming orders a florist fills as a portion of gross sales, the more flowers they generally provide to local customers, dollar for dollar? They don't need to buy discounted incomings by charging higher prices to folks in their own neighborhood.

WOW! Another revelation to the UNSUSPECTING CROWD!

Uncovers a whole new meaning to the words:

COST SHIFTING​

 

[Chezbloom]

If you are looking to receive incoming wire orders the picture isn't so rosy.

On that same $50 order that the customer forked out $65 you already know where $35 goes, but on top of that the wire service receives a clearinghouse fee of 7% or $3.50. So, as a receiving florist you would be compensated approximately $26.50 (industry average). After you deduct a reasonable $10 delivery charge you would have $16.50 for the $50 arrangement that the customer actually paid $65 for.

On the up side of filling orders at a loss is you get to stay busy.


RC[/QUOTE]

If I wanted to stay busy all day losing money I would just go to the Casinos.

 

[TOTO]

Yeah, MEE TOO!

If I wanted to stay busy all day losing money I would just go to the Casinos.

At least at the CASINOS and even when one is loosing money, we have those pretty girls in short skirts walking around and giving us FREE DRINKS!

Not sure if all the CASINOS are allowed to do that, but maybe that's why I call it, SMOKE and MIRROR WAMPUM. That's when you're LOOSING YOUR MONEY and PAYING FOR YOUR OWN DRINKS TOO! Now, that's gonna keep ya REAL BUSY, ey?

Like holding an ACE / 7 with the dealer's up card as a six.
:tread:

 

[duanermb]

Don't order flowers, they are expensive!

In my shop - they get a $40 arrangement. And I made some money on it.

Boss's right - they aren't profitable for florists who can't don't or won't do math and proper costing techniques.

I had to re-read this thread a couple times. Did you just say that you send out a $40 arrangemet on a $50 flower order? Proper costing techniques?

The issue of filling to full value has been discussed here at length, and you and others have defended both the wire service model and filling to full value. With your incoming at 10% and outgoing at 90% or whatever it is, you in particular should be able to fill to full value by using your discounts. (As the system was set up to do)

These threads discussed this recently at length and with much emotion as you put it...

Very Disappointed

Finally the News Gets it Right

Remeber this excerpt from the Teleflora's rebuttal to the news feed:

"According to Teleflora rules and regulations, fulfilling florists must fill all orders to full value (100% of the amount received) minus applicable delivery charges. We would like to reassure you that all items sent through the Teleflora network are 100% guaranteed and our florists are expected to cooperate to provide customer satisfaction, without exception, on every Teleflora order. Teleflora does have a substitution policy and occasionally, substitutions of flowers or containers are necessary due to temporary, regional availability issues."


"All retail prices on teleflora.com include a $7 delivery charge. This means that the florist is expected to fill each order to 100% of the "recipe" value less $7. For example, if the arrangement you ordered was priced at $29.99 it included the $7 delivery fee thus giving your floral order a value of $29.99. If you had walked into a floral shop to place the same order, the cost of the arrangement would have been the same, $29.99, plus the florist's delivery charge. If a florist cannot fulfill a wire order from teleflora.com as specified to its full value, they are required to reject the order and pass it to another florist who can fulfill the order at the suggested retail price. As stated in our substitution policy, occasionally, substitutions of flowers or containers are necessary due to temporary, regional availability issues. If this is the case with the gift you've selected, our experienced florists will ensure that the style, theme and color scheme of your arrangement is preserved and will only substitute items of equal or higher value."

__________________________________________________________

You have defended the WS model and your order gathering practice at length, and have told everyone that you sleep great at night.

Lets get out of fantasyland for a second. Please answer two direct question with yes/no.

IF YOU FILLED THAT ORDER TO FULL VALUE. WOULD YOU MAKE MONEY?

DO YOU EXPECT YOUR OG FILLING FLORISTS TO FILL TO FULL VALUE?

Thanks.

PS. In our shop, they get $50 worth of flowers for $50, every time ~ WOW what a concept!

 

[bloomz]

Ever notice how the less percentage of incoming orders a florist fills as a portion of gross sales, the more flowers they generally provide to local customers, dollar for dollar?

No

I had to re-read this thread a couple times. Did you just say that you send out a $40 arrangemet on a $50 flower order? Proper costing techniques?

IF YOU FILLED THAT ORDER TO FULL VALUE. WOULD YOU MAKE MONEY?

DO YOU EXPECT YOUR OG FILLING FLORISTS TO FILL TO FULL VALUE?

Thanks.

PS. In our shop, they get $50 worth of flowers for $50, every time ~ WOW what a concept!

We charge for delivery Duane, don't you?

What a concept!

Proper costing techinques in my world include delivery fees.

I think you let your passion skip right over noticing that.

Yes we make money on it, yes I expect orders to be filled to full value, just like we do. We don't give free delivery like you seem to be saying you do.

Now here's the towel. You wore me down with the baloney

You kids go ahead and post your fuzzy math, but don't forget to factor the cost of Linda Resnicks shoes and gas for the corporate jet into the poor filling florists cut.

Here you go

$65 - 15 service fee leave $50 X 70% leaves $35...

take out $400 for shoes and $8000 for 2 hours of gas for the jet and the poor filling florist just lost $8,365 on that $50 order.

Did I forget anything? Oh yeah, the delivery fee. :spin

 

[RC in Dayton and Cincinnati]

Bloomz,

I resent your continual fuzzy math comments.

We're not talking about $400 shoes. We're talking about a $65 flower order and how the proceeds get divvied up.

I have no problem with ordergatherers or the wire services. Ordergatherers have the privilege of running their business within the law as they see fit, and wire services offer a valuable service.

I'm pointing out to florists that looking at incoming wire orders as a profit center is a mistake, backing up my claims with numbers and showing who gets paid what on a wire order. In my example it's clear what the ordergatherer receives, and it's clear what the wire service receives. What's unclear is what the receiving florist receives, but we know averaged out over time that amount will be no more than the total of the sale less the wire services and ordergatherer's cut.

RC

 

[bloomz]

What's unclear is where that rebate comes from.....

That it doesn't come from the order value is clear to me

oops, thought I was done...but don't be hatin'


Happy Day After Valentine's Day!

 

[RC in Dayton and Cincinnati]

No




Here you go

$65 - 15 service fee leave $50 X 70% leaves $35...

How exactly did you come up with 70%?

RC

 

[bloomz]

I give...I'll spar with you in a cupla weeks when I see you!

I always do look forward to that.

 

[RC in Dayton and Cincinnati]

What's unclear is where that rebate comes from.....

That it doesn't come from the order value is clear to me

oops, thought I was done...but don't be hatin'


Happy Day After Valentine's Day!

Can we agree the rebate exists and is a direct result of that order being sent?

 

[CHR]

Proper costing techinques in my world include delivery fees.

When sold by an OG, the only people on earth who don't know the delivery fee is subtracted from the price of the arrangement shown are the customers.

They see a price, know what $50 worth of flowers should look like (since the pictures are heavily skewed to reflect more than the actual recipes) and then get POd to see only $40 in flowers.

We can quote WS rules all day here, but who is on the side of the consumer? Would they select the design if they were told in the product description "This item includes a $10 fee for local delivery"? They then understand they're buying a $40 arrangement and local delivery.

The next natural question would be "Then what is this $15 service fee for?"

Can't have that, since many would bail.

And to you two who gave me groans on my earlier post in this thread, I'm still waiting for the answer about where the money to pay WS rebates is generated if not the local florist members?

 

[bloomz]

I wanna know where the money comes from for Linda Resnicks shoes.

 

[RC in Dayton and Cincinnati]

I wanna know where the money comes from for Linda Resnicks shoes.

Now that's an interesting question.

Her shoe money certainly doesn't come from clearinghouse fees from ordergatherers. After all the clearinghouse fee on a $50 order is only $3.50 yet she is willing to pay much more than that in rebates. It must come from somewhere else. Anyone care to guess.

By the way I have no problem with Lynda or her $4,000 shoes.

RC

 

[bloomz]

Now that's an interesting question.

Anyone care to guess.

RC

Sure - Obama's stimulus package? :bouncy:

 

[CHR]

I wanna know where the money comes from for Linda Resnicks shoes.

Lawsuits against the competition?

The Resnicks have been known to put on the gloves to fight for their pomegranate domain. But lately, they’ve gone up a couple of classes and have stepped into the ring with heavyweights, picking fights with big companies that make pomegranate juice.


POM filed three federal lawsuits in January against Welch’s, Tropicana Products Inc. and Ocean Spray Cranberries Inc. In September, beverage giant Coca-Cola Co., which distributes Minute Maid, and Texas-based food supplier Fresherized Foods Inc. got the POM treatment when the company hit them with federal lawsuits as well.

The latest batch of suits was filed in late January.

How does this quote from the article fit?

Beverage consultants aren’t surprised by POM’s aggressive tactics. Industry experts said that oftentimes larger companies will copy smaller competitors that have successfully introduced a product.

“Once the little guy proves it’s going to work, there is the big guy ready to take advantage,” said Celeste Viale, a consultant with Florida-based Beverage Consulting Services Inc.

Really? Imagine that....

 

[duanermb]

Yup, we charge for delivery

No



We charge for delivery Duane, don't you?

What a concept!

Proper costing techinques in my world include delivery fees.

No, my passion has not gotten the better of me. I have another 20 or more years to go in this business, and I never view things for short term gain. Always though the eyes of the consumer.

Yup we charge for delivery. We make a little money on that too. But that still only gets things up to $60.00, and the customer knows that they are being charged an extra 10 bucks for that. Says right in the cart. (BEFORE THEY ENTER THEIR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION)

I don't see anywhere here where it says that it tells the customer that delivery will be removed from the price of the arrangement.

Anyway, like I said in a previous post. :tread: