bootcampguy
Well-Known Member
I know of several stores that dropped because of that article, as for me, just not enough conviction for me to know that the retail florist is their top priority......................
Marketing Games WSs Play....
- Thread starter CHR
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I know of several stores that dropped because of that article, as for me, just not enough conviction for me to know that the retail florist is their top priority......................
Doug Munro
Well-Known Member
Hmmmm? It is good to see that finally someone has realized that there are honest and dishonest individuals in ALL segments of business. However I note that the designations are both derogatory (or does RWK feel that anyone would like to be referred to as a Hog or a Dog)
The reality is that the landscape has changed considerably in the last decade or two in regards to retailing flowers. When I read SAF's article about "Order Gathering" I read what I thought was a rather honest assessment of the current situation and basically a suggestion that their members get on the train before it leaves the station. Neither SAF or anyone on this board is going to change how flowers are being retailed in today's world. SAF in printing that article was in fact trying to open a few eyes and drag some individuals still cling to the past into today's world. A noble gesture, but some prefer the past.
I have suggested many times on this board that virtually any florist with a web site is an "order gatherer" and I believe that is true. The real issue is that some businesses focus on it solely and direct a large portion of their resources to ensure that they succeed at it. Does this make them all evil? Of course not, most play the game by the rules and are honest with the consumer. Sure there are online flower retailers that mislead the consumer, however there are also B&M retail florists that do so (there have been for as long as I have been in this business). Does this mean that because of a few DRF's (Dishonest Retail Florists) we all want to be placed in that category?
On a last note, RWK's suggested return to the designation of H'OG (Honest Order Gatherer) is interesting in that the term "HOG" when used in business usually implies that someone is trying to acquire the lions share of the business for themselves and are greedy. LOL! If there is anyone on this board that is not trying to grab "the lions share of the business" being done in their area I suggest they sell and move on before they close. In retail if you are not striving to be number one eventually all your competitors who are will pass you and leave you standing in the dark wondering what happened. One of the things we stress to our own franchises is that closing their competitors through hard work and honest customer acquisition is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I don't have issues with order gathering except when they claim to be in a location they are NOT, deceiving the consumer who thinks they are shopping at a local florist.That's the only issue I have. Because of Florist in Concord listings with a phone number one digit off from mine, many of my local customers have been deceived in this way. How do I know? Because they call later to see why something they thought they had ordered from me came from some shop out of town. That is just wrong on every level and you will never convince me otherwise.
Exactly.
There is a difference between florists who are "trying to grab the lions share of the business being done in their area" and the Dishonest OG's who are trying to claim to be in every area. Like Concord, I also have people who come in my shop to complain about something that they think they ordered from me because the D'OG in town claims on google maps (owner verified listing) to be located a block away from me, on the same street as me (on top of the funeral home). When people are mad and try to find them, they stumble on my shop and this is what annoys me. It annoys me that people would intentionally confuse the public by lying about their location. And I do think it will change someday and that laws will change someday regarding this practice. And until this happens I will not stop complaining, writing to google, or supporting people and organizations who are trying to stop this practice because it is hurting the people who are trying to do honest business.
There is a difference between florists who are "trying to grab the lions share of the business being done in their area" and the Dishonest OG's who are trying to claim to be in every area. Like Concord, I also have people who come in my shop to complain about something that they think they ordered from me because the D'OG in town claims on google maps (owner verified listing) to be located a block away from me, on the same street as me (on top of the funeral home). When people are mad and try to find them, they stumble on my shop and this is what annoys me. It annoys me that people would intentionally confuse the public by lying about their location. And I do think it will change someday and that laws will change someday regarding this practice. And until this happens I will not stop complaining, writing to google, or supporting people and organizations who are trying to stop this practice because it is hurting the people who are trying to do honest business.
The only reason I wrote H'OG - is simple......H is the first letter in Honest, O is the first letter in Order, and G is the first letter in Gatherer. If someone want's to come up with a nicer way to put it......I'm all for it.
D is the first letter in Dis-honest, O is the first letter in Order, and G is the first letter in Gatherer, so, that makes a D'OG.
D is the first letter in Dis-honest, O is the first letter in Order, and G is the first letter in Gatherer, so, that makes a D'OG.
anytimeflowers
Linda
My problem lies not so much with those who would try to "steal" business from me. Whatever, I'm trying to "steal" business too. Like Doug says, if we aren't trying to grow, we're dead in the water.
My problem lies with the deceit to the consumer. Helen and Sarah Jane may have people come and complain, but those are the lucky people who "get educated". Others? They don't bother to complain, they just decide on another gift other than flowers because they've been burned. The most unfortunate part of that is they don't even understand who it was who burned them. That's my problem.
My problem lies with the deceit to the consumer. Helen and Sarah Jane may have people come and complain, but those are the lucky people who "get educated". Others? They don't bother to complain, they just decide on another gift other than flowers because they've been burned. The most unfortunate part of that is they don't even understand who it was who burned them. That's my problem.
That is the other issue for sure. We are probably getting a bad reputation for something we haven't done and we never hear about it to educate the customer.
lori042499
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OK we all pretty much agree that deceitful advertisers are evil...I am of the same opinion as Doug and have always been torn on my stance with OG's, I have always believed that they are doing nothing wrong(when done like it should be, excluding the scum bottom of the barrel liars)...They are doing nothing that we don't do on a regular basis, the acquire orders and get them sent out, most of us just do it better and find fault with how they treat their customers...What we don't do better is martket and advertise, many of us do not understand how it works and many of us are frozen in fear and avoid it rather than tackle it....
At this point in the ownership of my shop, if I continue to let fear rule my decisions, I will go out of business or not grow further...This is a sad fact...I know it...I need to start trying ppc campaingns, and I need to develop a real marketing plan, not a half-assed one, I need to work on the content of my website as much as I work on my store...as of right now, I let tf do it for me, they(TF) , like employees, will never care about my business like I do...I am the only one who can make it happen...noone is going to do it for me no matter how much I pay them, without my direct input and work...this is the final statement...
I have for the moment put all og's on suspend, I do not fill, that may change, should I decide to stay with TF once my analysis is complete I may feel compelled to take some of the orders, I will cherry pick, I will demand my amounts...I will get my delivery...I will probably lose some orders, but I will look and see if the order is something I need info off of and use all that info for my benefit....Florists as a group are given a whole lot of info, and generally we either do nothing with it, don't know what to do with it or feel that we don't have the money to do anything with it....These are some statements and ideas that we need to eradicate from our minds and get over....I am sitting on over 5000 people in my database and I contact none of them ever....stupid on my part...Of those 5000 less than half of them I have collected emails for another stupid move on my part...many of them are one hit wonders, but I would never know that because I have never given them any compelling reason to further order from my company...but TF.com, FTD.com and 800flowers.com, do at least once a month, I have never ordered from any of these folks and I get their emails, I get their offers, they still feel that I am worthy of a possible future order...
The trend I see with florists(myself included) is that when the going gets tough we retreat, yellow page advertising wouldn't remove the big national ads, we retreated, the big three won't remove ogs, we retreated, overhead is getting to high, we are starting to give up and close shop....Is this trend just like the trends of years ago and in ten years we will see that it was wrong? This is what I wonder, I don't want to be yet again the follower of the wrong movement...I am seeing that so mnay of the messages from programs are to take the bull by the horn and market for yourself and bring you shop in the direction it leads you...as much as I love design, I must face the fact that so many of the people in my area don't care, if I make my shop a complete design based studio, I would need to market to people outside my immediate area to grow and survive, this is fact, I will struggle anf grow very very slow with this method...This is not the path I want to take for my shop, I will still hone my design skills for me and my competative side, but shop wise I want to sell flowers...I will continue to try to grow my walk ins and have affordable flowers for them, 90% of my walk in biz takes wrapped flowers out the door...why shouldn't I have lots of less expensive varieties for them to cash and carry, if that is what they want?? I can still design them nicely if someone wants them, I can still carry some higher end varieties for those that want them, I need to be both in order to grow...
I think that the SAF article was more or less letting shops know that they need to take care of business thaemselves, not rely on saf, TF, FTD or any other business to do it for them, we all have the power of decision, decision to do what is best for each of us and decision to chage that path if it doesn't work...many of us are at a cross roads and are undecided which path we should take, others see their path more clearly...I know that many sound like they are confused(that would be me, I flip flop), this is ok...it is our right to make the decidions needed to be made in our own time, we are the ones that need to deal with the consequences and noone knows our financial situation but us, so these decisions need to be made with that knowledge...OK, I have talked enough, but I had a whole lot of thoughts on this...
At this point in the ownership of my shop, if I continue to let fear rule my decisions, I will go out of business or not grow further...This is a sad fact...I know it...I need to start trying ppc campaingns, and I need to develop a real marketing plan, not a half-assed one, I need to work on the content of my website as much as I work on my store...as of right now, I let tf do it for me, they(TF) , like employees, will never care about my business like I do...I am the only one who can make it happen...noone is going to do it for me no matter how much I pay them, without my direct input and work...this is the final statement...
I have for the moment put all og's on suspend, I do not fill, that may change, should I decide to stay with TF once my analysis is complete I may feel compelled to take some of the orders, I will cherry pick, I will demand my amounts...I will get my delivery...I will probably lose some orders, but I will look and see if the order is something I need info off of and use all that info for my benefit....Florists as a group are given a whole lot of info, and generally we either do nothing with it, don't know what to do with it or feel that we don't have the money to do anything with it....These are some statements and ideas that we need to eradicate from our minds and get over....I am sitting on over 5000 people in my database and I contact none of them ever....stupid on my part...Of those 5000 less than half of them I have collected emails for another stupid move on my part...many of them are one hit wonders, but I would never know that because I have never given them any compelling reason to further order from my company...but TF.com, FTD.com and 800flowers.com, do at least once a month, I have never ordered from any of these folks and I get their emails, I get their offers, they still feel that I am worthy of a possible future order...
The trend I see with florists(myself included) is that when the going gets tough we retreat, yellow page advertising wouldn't remove the big national ads, we retreated, the big three won't remove ogs, we retreated, overhead is getting to high, we are starting to give up and close shop....Is this trend just like the trends of years ago and in ten years we will see that it was wrong? This is what I wonder, I don't want to be yet again the follower of the wrong movement...I am seeing that so mnay of the messages from programs are to take the bull by the horn and market for yourself and bring you shop in the direction it leads you...as much as I love design, I must face the fact that so many of the people in my area don't care, if I make my shop a complete design based studio, I would need to market to people outside my immediate area to grow and survive, this is fact, I will struggle anf grow very very slow with this method...This is not the path I want to take for my shop, I will still hone my design skills for me and my competative side, but shop wise I want to sell flowers...I will continue to try to grow my walk ins and have affordable flowers for them, 90% of my walk in biz takes wrapped flowers out the door...why shouldn't I have lots of less expensive varieties for them to cash and carry, if that is what they want?? I can still design them nicely if someone wants them, I can still carry some higher end varieties for those that want them, I need to be both in order to grow...
I think that the SAF article was more or less letting shops know that they need to take care of business thaemselves, not rely on saf, TF, FTD or any other business to do it for them, we all have the power of decision, decision to do what is best for each of us and decision to chage that path if it doesn't work...many of us are at a cross roads and are undecided which path we should take, others see their path more clearly...I know that many sound like they are confused(that would be me, I flip flop), this is ok...it is our right to make the decidions needed to be made in our own time, we are the ones that need to deal with the consequences and noone knows our financial situation but us, so these decisions need to be made with that knowledge...OK, I have talked enough, but I had a whole lot of thoughts on this...
bootcampguy
Well-Known Member
This is the main issue........people getting business when they are not in that area. If they had to put in their ad (NOT IN THIS AREA) they would see a big reduction in sales. I still think SAF should look at the "overall issues" and take a stand, my favorite saying is if you sit in the middle of the fence, "crotch rot will come".......................The throw in the WS and you have an industry where your "vendor" is also your "competitor"..................but like others have said, we just need to keep our focus and we will win the customers "hearts"..............
Merchants get away with losts of misleading claims/offers because the consumer is tolerant, or should I say stupid. How many florist who are reading these posts fall for the same line - FREE. Corporate America is no better than our politicians, bankers, lawyers, etc. Perhaps the only honest and intelligent people are florists?
If a consumer gets "taken" at a chain/big box store, they rationalize saying "I should have known better." But that same customer says, "I shopped at your store because I knew you stand for qauality." What they tolerate at the big chains they will hold against the specialty store.
If a consumer gets "taken" at a chain/big box store, they rationalize saying "I should have known better." But that same customer says, "I shopped at your store because I knew you stand for qauality." What they tolerate at the big chains they will hold against the specialty store.
Who's Not Changing?
Isn't it the consumer who has changed? The consumer of today is so different from those we all came to depend on for our business. Most of them have died. They were a good breed.
Now I am going to show my age. The ads/commercials that are thrown at us today are unbelievable. Not many automobile ads give you a good picture of the product long enough to enjoy. It scares me how much violence there is in ads today. Do entertaining commercials really sell? Can a lizard really convince people to buy a brand of insurance? Does anyone see pub employees who look like the ones in the beer commercials? And it won't be long before those reporting the news will all be beautiful women with gradually plunging necklines. Fortunately, they do make watching the news somewhat enjoyable. And the surprise is, they are pretty and intelligent, or did I mean to say pretty intelligent.
Anyway, the consumer in the st century is a whole lot different from those in the th century.
And wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to understand a person who is calling in an order by phone. They either have an accent that you can't understand or their "walkie talkie" phones cut out. Oh for the good old days when a phone operator said "Number please." That was the epitome of customer service.
Consumers have changed, am I willing to accept change? It would be a lot easier if I were 4 decades younger.
Isn't it the consumer who has changed? The consumer of today is so different from those we all came to depend on for our business. Most of them have died. They were a good breed.
Now I am going to show my age. The ads/commercials that are thrown at us today are unbelievable. Not many automobile ads give you a good picture of the product long enough to enjoy. It scares me how much violence there is in ads today. Do entertaining commercials really sell? Can a lizard really convince people to buy a brand of insurance? Does anyone see pub employees who look like the ones in the beer commercials? And it won't be long before those reporting the news will all be beautiful women with gradually plunging necklines. Fortunately, they do make watching the news somewhat enjoyable. And the surprise is, they are pretty and intelligent, or did I mean to say pretty intelligent.
Anyway, the consumer in the st century is a whole lot different from those in the th century.
And wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to understand a person who is calling in an order by phone. They either have an accent that you can't understand or their "walkie talkie" phones cut out. Oh for the good old days when a phone operator said "Number please." That was the epitome of customer service.
Consumers have changed, am I willing to accept change? It would be a lot easier if I were 4 decades younger.
Doug Munro
Well-Known Member
Just so no one thinks otherwise, I am strongly against deceptive practives in any business ( retail, wholesale, B&M, online) as I beleive that anytime consumer confidence is undermined it is a bad thing for all.
As for placing "Not In This Area" in all ads, come on.... Next it will be suggested that florists stick to marketing in their own neighbourhood, or maybe within a predisignated area, so as not to impact their local competition.
In reading this thread it has been mentioned a number of times that one of the strengths of the large online flower retailers is marketing, something that most small retail florists do very poorly if at all. The fact of the matter is that online flower retailers who market honestly and heavily are doing many florists a service, by generaing orders which the florist fills. One can not make the assumption that if the online retailer never acquired the order that somehow it would of made its way "magically" to a given florist. Yes a wire order has a cost assigned to it (discounts and membership) however so does acquiring an order online. As Duanne has suggested many times on this board maybe these order costs have to be viewed as "marketing" for the filling florist.
So, as I stated before the SAF article was in my opinion more of a call to action to florist members rather than a show of support for large online flower retailers. Unfortunately many who read the article have such a bias against "Order Gatherers" that they missed the message.
anytimeflowers
Linda
Doug,
May I clarify? I really DO believe that MOST consumers, when faced with a "floral occasion" who go on line, are looking for a local florist. There most definitely are those who go to 800 or TF specifically because that is who they plan to order through.
But most of them are looking for a florist in the area to take care of their need, and when one of the many, many og's show up and the consumer starts clicking through and see MY town listed, they take it for the "real" thing and go ahead and order with confidence, misguided confidence. I just don't think that's right, I think it's very deceptive....do you consider that deceptive?
May I clarify? I really DO believe that MOST consumers, when faced with a "floral occasion" who go on line, are looking for a local florist. There most definitely are those who go to 800 or TF specifically because that is who they plan to order through.
But most of them are looking for a florist in the area to take care of their need, and when one of the many, many og's show up and the consumer starts clicking through and see MY town listed, they take it for the "real" thing and go ahead and order with confidence, misguided confidence. I just don't think that's right, I think it's very deceptive....do you consider that deceptive?
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
excuse me chiming in on this again, but it's been a week (not that anyone noticed) since I bashed the WS and SAf and I'm going through withdrawals....
I've stated that Peter Moran had the best of intentions with the OG article, and yes Doug, many took it wrong, but not all of us did. Peter made some good points, but sadly most local florists have little hope to compete on the level required both with knowledge and cash as well to ever hope to defend their own back yards. Couple that with the **fact** that the wire services, and even SAf to a point help deceptive companies compete deceptively and you have the reasons I dropped out of all of them, SAF included. I will not help fund the ongoing deception of the consumer. Some feel that's OK, usually big senders that stand to loose a bunch of money are the ones that champion the cause of order gathering.
There is no good reason for a florist in Kalamazoo to advertise in Anaheim, except to try and add themselves into the middleman game, and take an undeserved cut of the pie. I'm pretty sure the good florists in Anaheim can handle the order directly just fine.
BTW, my "bias" is not against the order gatherer, it's against the deception and unethical practices supported by the wire services and SAF that assist them in defrauding the CONsumer.
Many here claim the consumer does not want to be educated, I find the opposite is true. When we explain the "Anatomy of a Wire Order", especially a OG scenario many gasp, all of them say thank you, and in the last year a couple thousand consumers have been empowered to contact the delivering florist directly. I think that's the way the industry should work, and eventually it will as older clients are replaced with techno-savvy new ones.
I have never had an issue with anyone that operates a B&M facility (except, Tracy in Macon, Wesley Berry, and Charles Kremp) that also gathers orders honestly, but I do have an issue with deceptive, unethical and blatant misguiding of the consumer. Evidently FTD, Teleflora and SAF have no balls, since they choose to look the other way. Or it could be that they generate too much money to do things above board, and continue perpetuating the fraud.
Nuf said by me, no one really cares anyway... but it makes me feel better getting my fix for the next week or month or...maybe forever on this subject. (I doubt that, but you can hope)
lori042499
Well-Known Member
- May 3, 2006
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Mark, as one who thinks that the average consumer doesn't want to be educated..many would if there was a short and sweet way of giving the anatomy of a wire order, there is way too much rambling that haa sto happen for many to bother to listen...at least here in the northeast, most people don't even want to wait for my slow receipt printer to print never mind me babbling on about don't send via the web floral brokers,blah blah...alternately, should someone mention that they got burned and they will listen til the cows come home....I have a captive ear then and I tell it...if someone is chatty, I tell it..even florists if they are chatty I will ask them if they fill for ogs and ask why and educate if they have no idea, if receptive..some are some don't even want to take my order, lost causes in my book...education is only worth spewing to listening ears...
That's the reaction I usually get. They seem so thankful that I've shown them another way.
I believe that the whole reason that online shopping has taken off like it has is because people do want to be educated. They like to research things and look at pictures and read reviews before they buy. That's why I shop online. That's why I buy organic too; because of things I've learned. I change my buying habits based on every new bit of info I get. And maybe I'm different then most because I want to be educated about every purchase, but maybe not. I don't know what others are thinking.
Here's how I educate people on ordering flowers direct:
They walk in and say:
"I need to send some flowers out of town"
...and I say:
"OK, no problem. Would you like me to wire those for you or give you some numbers of local florists in that town so you can call direct and save all the wire fees?"
...then they always want to know more and that's where the education begins. But hey, they asked for it.
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
I think the principle told my parents the same thing when I was in first grade back in 1961....
Here's a quick attention getter: We no longer wire orders, as the system as it operates today removes up to 32% of YOUR MONEY before it gets to the delivering florist.
That statement is not only true, it does generate comments. And the best part is when two customer talk about it...
I doubt that there is ONE florist here that would gladly pay 32% more to their wholesaler, or 32% more to their vehicle provider, or 32% more to their grocer, or... but there are MANY here who feel the CONsumer should pay them 32% more than the value they receive!! The argument that your service is worth it is not valid.
Can you explain to me why you feel it's OK for the CONsumer to get ripped off, but not yourself???
I would never want to pay 32% extra for anything and I've never had a customer who didn't want to learn how to order direct when I've offered to teach them. Granted, I don't get a lot of requests for wire-outs so I might have a special situation. Maybe one request per month, if that. It's probably because I tend to sell/market our personality and image more than our product, which happens to appeal to a younger consumer. So, I can't really speculate how this might go if I had a lot of people wanting to wire stuff out. I'm actually surprised that it might be so common since it is so rare at my shop but I know everywhere is different.
Flag on the play! I call foul on this one
Most florists have the resources, and access to the knowledge. It's a choice. If you can't afford $100 / mo for a web site, and a small annual fund for professional development, then what you have is an underfunded business, not an OG issue. It's not the OG's fault that your business (the general "you") is that tight now (or that too many new shops are under capitalized from day 1).
Doug Munro
Well-Known Member
Flag on the play! I call foul on this one
Most florists have the resources, and access to the knowledge. It's a choice. If you can't afford $100 / mo for a web site, and a small annual fund for professional development, then what you have is an underfunded business, not an OG issue. It's not the OG's fault that your business (the general "you") is that tight now (or that too many new shops are under capitalized from day 1).
Bingo daddyO!
The reality of a lot of retail florists (and small business in general) is that they tend to focus on the wrong areas within their own four walls. In our business sector generally marketing, web development, and SEO are viewed by shop owners as expenses rather than investment and opportunity. How often is the question asked
"What is the minimum I should spend on marketing and advertising?
The key word is always "minimum" as if it is something that should be avoided.
On the other hand they will walk across a bed of coals to save a nickel on a carn, or they will make their own deliveries to avoid paying someone. Both are pointless endeavors unless they have a large enough volume of business so that these efforts actually amount to something. Lets face it, when you sell 200 carns a week, whats a nickel per unit worth to your business, $10.00 that's it!
The bottom line in business is effective marketing and advertising increase sales resulting in growth. Being from the "old school" I am a firm believer that many woes in a business can be addressed through increased sales.
If you look at most major online retailers of flowers, they understand this. Their efforts are to the most part focused on customer acquisition and sales. Yes, yes, yes, I know that some of them "cross the line" with deceptive practices, but don't throw our the baby with the bath water! The reality is that the very nature of the flower business has changed and there is no going back, those that wish to survive long term need to change with it.