Refusing works!!!

[slcummins]

Why be FTD or TF if you don't accept their orders?

Sorry, I'm with Joe on this, It makes little to no sense to be a memeber and pay your monthly fees if you refuse to fill the orders. Now if you don't have the product or can't afford to fill it on the tiny amount of money they gave you, then I agree that it should be refused. But just to be snotty about who you do and don't serve????? I just don't get it. The dumb Blonde

 

[CHR]

Ummmmm.... "The orders" come in from all sorts of places - great shops, mediocre shops, dreadful stores, OGs and dOGs.

snotty adv. an offensive term describing actions that are regarded as being mean or rude.

Sorry, but to call the knive's actions either mean or rude is a mischaracterization of a completely natural response to being set up for failure - at a 30%+ discount, no less. Rather than blaming them for protecting the good name of their business, why not ask why the company they cite is permitted to continue to grossly misrepresent the products they sell to consumers?

slcummins, guess you haven't been on the receiving end of one of the many complaints created by some of these guys. If you had, I guarantee you'd have a completely different perspective.

The dilemma is - either to give away your product because the amount is generally way under the appropriate value, or fill the order at a substantial loss. It's 'no win' either way.

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Let me be "clear" about this.....

IF you choose to be a member of a wire service that inherently carries OG/dOGgy) baggage, you are bound to either fill orders to the best of your ability, reject/deny the orders if improperly transmitted, and request MORE FUNDS if the order is regarded as undervalued based on YOUR shop requirements.
To belong to a ws, or ws like organization AND deny order fulfillment actually works against your shop, and it's reputation, in ways most of you have overlooked, or have cared to ignore.
As a ws member, you "agree" to fulfill orders.
In the case of non membership in a ws, you are of course free to do as you please!!
I am FLABBERGASTED that you pay your dues, and choose not to fill, or you choose to CALL OUT your orders, when both TF and FTD have pretty competent Domestic Retrans/FloristFinder departments, that ARE PAID TO DO THESE THINGS on your behalf.
As has been stated, a shop...ANY SHOP, should NEVER fill an undervalued order, that they will either lose money on, or create a complaint, that requires lost dollars to rectify...plain & simple!
ALL the wire services have to be pushed to provide accurate sending shop information, and in THESE cases, I put ALL the BLAME squarely on the shoulders of the wire service.... deceitful order gathering and transmission WILL NOT be tolerated, and such orders WILL NOT BE FILLED, unless I, the fill shop am satisfied that MY ARSE is NOT on the firing squad...
So, it's catch22......IF YOU NEED INCOMING, play by the so called rules, IF YOU DON'T NEED incoming, dump the wire service.

 

[BOSS]

Fillig orders from OGs does not mean that the filling florists are "part of" the despicable business practice of OGs. It simply means that these florists, our store included, are not participating in the boycott of these OGs. There is a difference between not participating in a boycott and supporting the practice of that company, a difference that some purists might fail to recognize.

Emphasis above mine...

Call me a "purist" then, because I fail to see the difference...it's called **enabling**. If OG orders were not able to find a willing filler they would drop dead in the system. Not to be confused with drop shipped boxed flowers, that IMHO really are a much different animal.

Florists, Real Florists can control the *same day delivery function* that the bulk of orders fall under.

I'd be curious, and I'm not picking on you, to know how many florists would accept an order form a so called *basement betty* in their own town and fill it, because she has no delivery vehicle....because here again I see no difference....

And the marketing to recipients argument holds little water...I want the guy spending the money not the person recieving the flowers. You can still gather the recipient info from those orders prior to rejecting them.

 

[BOSS]

It makes little to no sense to be a memeber and pay your monthly fees if you refuse to fill the orders.

Beg to differ...again...

In many cases, like mine, it makes some sense...try 4000 (and growing again) outgoing orders a year...I need the ability to transmit these orders effortlessly. As to refusing orders, the only ones I refuse are from known order gatherers and FTD.COM because those orders *may* have come from places like Wal-mart and Krogers, right from my own (and yours too) town.

THere is little money to be made on INcomings, but I do accept every one from a REAL Florist, even as low as $25.00 in some cases, because I may need to have the same done for me...Order Gatherers and FTD.COM and TF.com CAN NOT do that...

 

[flowerknife+us]

I will not apologize for not filling orders from sending shops only!!! They can not and will not ever be able to fill an order for me. It is a two way street, but they only traveling in one direction, never the other. As I stated in an earlier post, we always ask TF if they are calling it in for another "real" florist, if they are not then we refuse. If they are from a real shop and are underrvalue I politely send a message to give them the option to give us more funds or sell their customer a different product. We been over backwards for real flower shops.

Knife's Wife

 

[BOSS]

As a ws member, you "agree" to fulfill orders.

Yup...from other FLORISTS!

Nothing in the rules about filling for NON-florists or for *The Company*...

I'll shut up now....

 

[Joe Mioux]

One other point needs to be addressed.

Membership dues and fees.

The more order you accept, the lower your fixed costs (membership fees and dues) become per order.

For example: If your fees are $250 per month and you receive 10 orders your memberhip fees costs you $25.00 per order. If you accept 100 orders then your fixed cost ( member fees) is reduced to $2.50.

Joe

 

[flowerchild]

Must Disagree here

Joe Mioux wrote the following, but it really misses the point.

"The end result of your business practice is some flower buying consumer is being hurt or inconvenienced by you not accepting these orders. Right or wrong, OG's are here."

This premise makes a guess as to why flower consumers may fall out of the habit of buying from our industry. What happened to price point? Everyone seems to agree that price point is the most important factor these days, but some florists would still have us believe that using a middleman is an 'accepted' cost increase in the consumers eyes. BTW, if you are curious...ask the consumer.....might be surprised what they think.

It is my belief that customers are being lost because of the implied VALUE. Their end price (including service charges and tax) in a WIRE situation does not match the same arrangement they can buy as a walkin. I know some will want to debate WHY this happens.....but we can all say it happens in MOST cases. Customers are ok with "shopping around" ...even being forced to shop around. VALUE is the deal breaker...especially after the fact. Value is why the grocery stores are having an impact....without having to deliver.

The True problem with WS and other OG's is the "system." Everyone has a system to running their business. Even the WS. The WS/OG system is inefficient. They try to ensure a consumer will be able to send flowers, but there are just TOO MANY factors to control for their business. IN FACT, these factors are spiraling out of control as we speak. More florists dropping, more customers dealing direct............all leads to less efficiency. With a "more than lacking" system in place, it is the WS/OG who are inconveniencing the consumer by making promises they cannot support. I giggle when Joe blames the florists..... only because the wire services ALSO place the responsibility/blame on the florists.

We all know people who like to place the blame anywhere except with themselves. Anybody like hanging out with them very long? Why should business be any different.

Flower Power

 

[Joe Mioux]

Flowerchild:


You read too much into prior comments.

Also, I was not blaming anyone....not a florist or OG. I was just commenting on the state of our industry.

I don't have time right now to elaborate, but didn't want your comments to go without some brief remarks from me.

Joe

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

of course....

EVERYTHING SAID in this thread is both correct, and totally incorrect.
here's the beauty of such a thread...for those of us that have already begun to understand the "implications" of filling for OG's and SFO's have made our decisions, one way or the other.
For newbies, you must take as MUCH INFO as possible, and make your decisions based on the wisdom and experience amongst these fine florists, and florist owners that dwell at FlowerChat.
Again, SHOULD you decide to BE in a wire service, you are "subject" to the somewhat "flexible" rules of the wire service.
Remember, THEY TOO are fighting for their business lives, and you MIGHT BRING UP all the "bad" things they have done making the decsions that THEY HAD TO MAKE in THEIR operations.
You too are subject to the SAME EBB & FLOW of decsion making.
YOU TO are subject to "blowing" your decisions as well.
Be a pro...at least, when turning down an order from an OG/dOG/HQ...."unenabling" them is unlikely..."acting" like them is unwarranted, ...they are NOT doing anything illegal, based on today's free-for-all attitudes towards the industry.
Many highly competant and successful shops are ALSO OG's...watcha gonna do??

 

[flowerchild]

Standard Answer...

"Whatcha gonna do?"

I am going to continue educating the consumer. We have mentioned this before but when our shop was open, we made it a point to explain to "Wiring Customers" that there are two ways to send flowers non-locally. Sure, some just wanted to use the SERVICE we offered but a VERY small percentage. Once they were "in the know" about WIRE business, they chose to go direct. We even provided the 800 number.

Crazy eh? I call it THEIR choice. You give the consumers the choice, they will give you their loyalty (locally) for being upfront.

It is my sincere belief that if every "wire order" magically started to be ordered/delivered without any middlemen.......no florists would be complaining and ALL would be making huge money.

except the people we are complaining about.....do you care?

Some mentioned the legality.....of course there is nothing illegal here. Legality and Ethics are two completely different things. I do think that sitting 'on the fence' of ethics hurts just as bad though.

Flower Power

 

[goldfish]

Call me a "purist" then, because I fail to see the difference...it's called **enabling**.

The difference between (a) being a "part of" a bad business practice and (b) not participating in the boycott of this business is analogous to the difference between (a) a gas station owner who profits from price-gauging and (b) a truck driver who is not refusing to deliver gas to this station.

On the one hand, one could argue that, because he is not refusing to deliver gas, this truck driver is indirectly helping (or "enabling" in your word) the price gauging and therefore is a "part" of it.

On the other hand, by not refusing to participate in the boycott, what this truck driver has concluded is simply that he can't afford to sacrifice his truker business for the sake of the honorable cause. He just took the lesser of the two evils.

Does he deserve a dishonable badge of being a "part of" the price gauging? I say "no" and I'm sure some people say "yes." I know this anology is not perfect, but hope you get my point.

If OG orders were not able to find a willing filler they would drop dead in the system.

I'm sure no one would dispute that. But the real issue confronting each one of "little guys" is not a matter of principle, which I happen to be on your side. It is about the short-term consequence of our decision, not on the flower industry as a whole, but on our own business. Next month's rent, that's what confronts us.

And I am arguing, with a little bit of regret, that at this moment of time, I cannot sacrifice our business for the sake of a larger, honorable cause. Therefore I regretably refuse to participate in the OG boycott.

I am also aware that some people would try to pursuade us that cutting OGs off would actually help our business. For that, I would say, yes in a long-term, but no if we have to pay the next month's rent.

We are currently trapped by WS and are trying very hard to get out. And I ask for more time. When we grow and develop more local clients (we took over this sore only last July), then we should have a bit more room to manuever.

Any worthy cause has an associated cost and we can't pay for it now, as my first loyalty is for our own business.

I'd be curious, and I'm not picking on you, to know how many florists would accept an order form a so called *basement betty* in their own town and fill it, because she has no delivery vehicle....because here again I see no difference....

Actually I would love to be picked on... I will give you the straight answer. So to answer your question, we would accept any order, as long as it's above our minimum and we have enough time and materials to do it.

 

[Joe Mioux]

Replying to Boss and Goldfish's last graph....

Basement Betty's may not have a delivery van, but I bet they have a car.

How else would they get to the beautician for their weekly "doo"?

Seriously, Mark, I don't think a local Basement Betty would have a problem making a local delivery.

I am a bit surprised no one has offered any commentary on one of my previous posts regarding reducing the per unit cost of one's membership dues.

Joe

 

[CHR]

I am a bit surprised no one has offered any commentary on one of my previous posts regarding reducing the per unit cost of one's membership dues.

OK. I'll bite.

Could it be that the most valuable part of WS membership is sending, not receiving. The filling side is generally break-even at best, especially in the era of @29.95 dozen roses.

The easiest quotient is to divide dues by orders sent and then offset fees with commissions and rebates.

Hey, if the SFOs don't have to fill orders, why should local florists? If it was lucrative to fill, they'd be clamouring to open local shops or LFCs. Anybody see that happening?

 

[flowerchild]

Per Unit Cost

The Per Unit Cost is very fitting as you described it. It is one of the traps that WS's use to justify cost. It's fitting because a per unit cost in marketing is generally associated with a source that can't be circumvented. Or the source makes it challenging for the consumer to circumvent.

On the opposing hand, think of general marketing to new direct consumers. You may touch a consumer directly and then win their loyalty for life. (Weddings, funerals, etc) As a florist, what was the per unit cost of that initial marketing?

Dealing direct in marketing is best also.

Selling the per-unit cost was the WS's idea, fitting though it is......the goal is only to put more orders in the system.

Then we are back to promoting the inefficient system. It's a big circle.

Flower Power

 

[Joe Mioux]

OK. I'll bite.

Could it be that the most valuable part of WS membership is sending, not receiving. The filling side is generally break-even at best, especially in the era of @29.95 dozen roses.

The easiest quotient is to divide dues by orders sent and then offset fees with commissions and rebates.

Hey, if the SFOs don't have to fill orders, why should local florists? If it was lucrative to fill, they'd be clamouring to open local shops or LFCs. Anybody see that happening?

Cathy:
I look at the wireservices as just something we have to service our customers.

For the most part, for me, incoming v outgoing is almost equal.

Hence 20 pct in v out is a wash.

The 7 pct and membership fees is just a cost of doing business. My only goal is to mininize my WS affiliated costs per order as much as possible.

To that end, yes, I would like to send a few more orders than receive in order to break even.

Why, because if I cover the costs of doing wireservice business, I actually will make more sales and hence more profit from the incoming side.

Flowerchild, I don't understand your last post.

Joe

P.S. I am really not that passionate one way or the other about WS's. It is something we have and I do my do my best at making that part of the business as profitable as possible.

 

[BOSS]

Goldfish, Joe and whom ever....

I agree that a "basement betty" would have the ability to deliver the product. My analogy was trying to equate an OG and anyone (in this case a basement betty) that generates an order and then transfers it to a local florist for fulfillment.

Imagine, (and this happens everyday) that a customer shops your store and sees the XXX arrangement in your cooler for local delivery priced at $47.50 plus delivery. This same customer then goes shopping at Walmart and sees the same XXX arrangement priced at $39.96 so they place the order.

Now Walmart transmits the order thru a wire service (since they do not deliver directly) and said wire service removes Walmarts name from the order and sends it to your shop and you fill it. The traditional florist segment of the industry has just lost a customer, the wire service has just gained the consumer data, and Walmart, and the wire service made a profit, and then the local florist has to eek out a slim margin, make and deliver the arr.

All the while, the consumer has learned that you are priced higher than Walmart, that they can order at Walmart and that YOU will be the delivering florist and that YOU will be the one responsible should anything go wrong along the way. Sorry, I am not willing to put businesses reputation on the line for them.
_____________________
Not sure I agree with the gasoline analogy, the truck driver works for the oil company that manufactures the petro, delivers the petro and sells the petro...

Difference is florists are independant businesses, and gas stations are franchises (or something like that)...
____________________
I do agree with your theory that you need to stay in business and build for the future, I only question the need for OG and "company" orders...have to give this some more thought...
_____________________
And lastly, Joe, the pricing thing must include outgoing as well, the 20% is a wash based on the equal number of INcoming/OUTgoing orders I agree, but if a shop, sends a bigger bulk than they receive the cost of membership becomes more diluted with each outgoing order.

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Yes.......

this thread is bringing out the VERY BEST of the very best.
Remember that it was the florists that dropped the ball, when many years ago, we were "TOLD" that in time, IF we didn't pull up our socks, the introduction of OG's, dOGS, and "basement betty's" would come to fruition.
And we didn't believe, and literally punished any of those that would "suggest" that we would lose our grip on the retail floral marketplace.
In the late 60's, and early 70's, WE had "control", in the 80's and 90's we LOST control, and in the NEW millenium, here we are scratching our heads!
WE, and our "competitors", are IN THIS for the money...THEY, for "profit" margins, WE...for a living, but, EITHER WAY, and analogies aside, we HAVE had a HUGE impact on the way THEY do business.
WE CAN "drop ship" as well you know, and WE CAN "drop ship" same day you know, and WE CAN put them OUT of business, IF we ALL 'disable" their ability to fill orders all at the SAME TIME!!
We won't you know!!, and THEY know it too!!
I AGREE with Joe's example.....IF you choose to belong to a WS, the MORE you utilize it, the LESS per order it costs you....plain fact!

 

[carol]

I think everyone needs to think long and hard about what Mark just said! If or really when you local walmart and grocery store really start the push to be sending florists, the local receiving florist will really lose. There will be no benefit at all to filling this order because the local customer was happy to go to walmart or the grocery store and will not need to come to you. We have a Price Shopper new in town and their flower dept is called Flower Market. FTd and all that. So when the customer gets into the habit of ordering while shopping for food and you the receiving guy get the discounted order you lose in so many ways. Mark is right customers are smart and knowing that their floral order will be designed and delivered by your shop but at walmart prices is the way to go. Lower price but same high design quality.
We stopped filling for OG, SFO and .coms years ago because it just doesn't make sense. As to paying the rent next month..it was hard.. real hard. and each month we face the same challenges.. we need to offer the customers better reasons to come to us. We still send out a lot of orders because we push that hard, after all that is the real profit maker in our industry, but those orders are falling.. The .coms are eroding our base. therefore why would I want to fill for them..they are of no help to me..won't fill my orders so where is the tit for tat?
As I said before wire services should be paying the filling florists for the priviledge of using their resources.. I never really understood why the top sendors got the fancy trips when it is the top receivers that are the most valuable part of our industry. I guess the answer is with the shops that are in the position of having to fill orders to pay next months rent..
short term cash flow at the expense of long term fiscal health