Seems silly but...

[inferno63]

How it's been explained to me is that the orders we send to shops through the partnership with PF are arranged, not boxed. I can't accurately answer the question about profitability - I've learned from Flower Chat that different florists find profits in different methods, so if I said yes, it probably wouldn't be true across the board. Shops need to accept or decline the order based on their own calculation of profitability.

As for how it takes business dollars away from ProFlowers, we hope that florists will include their shop information and actively market to those customers, achieving a certain number of customers lost to PF because customers had a good experience with that particular shop and want to become loyalists.

So you are the bridge to yet another internet order gatherer that is one more money-taking hop between the consumer and the florist? Why would ANY business person be happy about getting more of those orders? The consumer either pays under $30, and the difference is made up by the florist's pockets in fees, or they pay too much after the OG and WS gets their hands in the consumer's pockets. For the life of me I cannot begin to understand why any of that is okay with any florist or anyone in the floral industry. Drives me nutty!

 

[BOSS]

As for how it takes business dollars away from ProFlowers, we hope that florists will include their shop information and actively market to those customers, achieving a certain number of customers lost to PF because customers had a good experience with that particular shop and want to become loyalists.

While noble, it does not work that way. In general flower recipients are not flower buyers.

Nicole, nothing against you, but reality says that Teleflora simply got in bed with another order pimp and basically gave ProFlowers a guaranteed same day delivery network enabling them to accept orders they otherwise would not have been able to fulfill. Thus helping ProFlowers to enforce in the consumers mind that they can do it all.

 

[Flowerchatter03]

Here's an opinion and it only belongs to me I can speak for the others:


Sending boxed flowers is like sending the ingredients of a cake (rather than an actual cake) to someone's home. It is an unfinished product.

Take this analogy and add another situation...let's say that I send the ingredients of a cake to someone via fed ex and they weren't home. It's 90 degrees and it sat on their doorstep for 8 hours. Do you think that the ingredients are still fresh?

We've had that box flowers sent to a funeral home situation here once. We also were called to go out and try to fix it. Hard to fix half dead flowers.

We also had a customer bring us a box of flowers that was drop shipped from Hawaii. The customer had no idea what to do with the flowers so she brought them to us to arrange. By the time that she picked out a container, foam, time to arrange, extra greenery, etc. she ended up paying about $35 for her "gift" out of her own pocket.

As for pro-flowers and other OG....if you really care about customers, by the time they go through proflowers, then through you, then to a florist, how much $$ is left to create the actual arrangement? Basically nothing. After PF takes their cut and you (TF) take their cut, what does the florist have to work with when $30 bucks is already gone?

It's wrong to deceive anyone on any level. Period.

 

[CHR]

Without a florist channel, flower drop shippers lose all same-day business, all Sunday delivery business and almost all Monday delivery business (excpet PF which IIRC has a very limited range of products in select areas for Monday delivery). They also lose next-day delivery business for orders placed after 2-3 PM. Add all that up, and my guess is it amounts to 20-30% of their total sales.)

The biggest single complaint I have about drop-ship companies is their use of open flower florist designs in vases as their product images. The low displayed prices require the recipient to assemble the gift (the labor) - and that's a significant part of our cost.

Yes, we can deliver loose flowers, but consumers compare what they see - and what they see are arrangements in vases.

We florists have ALL had our prices questioned in comparison to the pictures of drop-ship items from ProFlowers and copycats 1-800 and FTD. I personally have had shoppers stand at our counter and on the phone requesting duplicates of PF items be locally delivered at their prices on major holidays.

It takes a lot of time to educate these folks about the differences in what's really delivered:
- the iris & tulips are closed, green and unattractive 'as shipped' in the boxes
- many of the roses are smaller (sometimes substantially smaller) and shorter and arrive with guard petals so they need to be cleaned up to be enjoyed.
- the lilies are tight buds and will need 2-3-4 days to be attractive.
- the recipient needs to put it all together
- the recipient needs a knife to cut the flowers when they arrive since they are not necessarily correct length for the vase (if purchased separately)
- the shipping/handling is about double the price of our local delivery charge.

We could well match PFs prices for same items - but that's not what the shoppers in our store or on the phone expected.

Teleflora's parent company has gone after competitors for deceptive and misleading advertising (Pom Wonderful especially) via complaints file through both with the National Advertising Division of the BBB and via lawsuits. I'd love to see the weight of that legal team pointed at the advertising being done by the drop-shippers who fail one of the the most basic codes of advertising of the BBB:

Unassembled Merchandise
When advertised merchandise requires partial or complete assembly by the purchaser, the advertising should disclose that fact, e.g., "unassembled," "partial assembly required."

Rather than handling their orders while spending millions to advertise negative 'talking flowers', why not have a level playing field by forcing them to change their product images and clearly disclose 'partial assembly required'?

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

First, I would like to thank Nicole for starting this thread
2nd, Nicole, florists NO LONGER "trust" wire services, the VERY entities, that actually are responsible for the degradation of our industry
3rd...WE THE FLORISTS, actually PAID for this WHOLE INDUSTRY long before the internet erupted on the scene, and made it easy for slacker leaches to enter florist retail, WITHOUT the accreditation AND qualifications.
4th...WE THE FLORISTS, only "tolerate" wire services now, because IT WAS, the wire services, that were 100% responsible for "allowing" entry into the florist retail trade of people that had NO INTEREST in the industry, JUST the "profits"
5th...we "USED" to be the nice people that you could, AND DID, pull the wool over their eyes,BUT, we've "learned" NOT to trust ANY kind of structural sentence formation out of ANYTHING wire service!!
6th...SEARS tried AND FAILED...at "drop shipping their OWN goods".......took a while, until it backfired, and they WERE FORCED to return to personal outlets for distribution AND re-capture
7th...wire services USED to be up close AND personal...now, they're DISTANT, and AMBIVALENT.....MANY of us have REMOVED any "tell-tale" signs of being so called "members".
Nicole, we simply DON'T trust your employers,OR their "intents"...it doesn't matter, which characteristic studies you possess, OR allude to.....
and 8TH.....Nicole, drop shipping ANY perishable products MUST, and WILL be made THE FINAL SIN, for which, THE REAL FLORISTS, WILL NOT take "responsibility" for...YOU ship it, YOU fill it, YOU "fix" it!!
I WILL NOT tolerate ANY "idiot" florist, that actually fixes/repairs/designs boxed flowers that were NOT sold by themselves, or a fellow florist...do NOT think for ONE MINUTE, that ANY florist, 'specially those here on FlowerChat, are as sweet and gullible, as we ONCE were, and being the BRAVE SOUL, that YOU are Nicole, for which I AGAIN, give you credit, I see an "effort" on this thread to "discredit" you, for WHAT you "represent",....NOT who YOU are, so,
this IS a Pandora's Box...just a little heads up!!

 

[duanermb]

Rather than handling their orders while spending millions to advertise negative 'talking flowers', why not have a level playing field by forcing them to change their product images and clearly disclose 'partial assembly required'?

How would they do that? While the false advertising and everything else drives me to :hammer: and :fdevil: who has the power to do that? Certainly not TF.

Why does everyone think that an entity like FTD or TF has to be for the florist all the time. It drives me nuts to hear this stuff on a constant basis. Their business is gathering orders the best way they know how and profiting from it.

Their membership numbers speak to them. If their decline in membership is ahead of the curve of the decline in florists, they are winning the battle.

You all have to remove the face of the company and emotions from these issues and focus on the industry sectors. Technology and cheap shipping have created monsters. It doesn't matter what name the monster takes, it will be there in one way, shape or form. If there wasn't PF, there would be someone else doing it.

Drop Ship Flowers - not our business
Flowers with your daily bread and milk - not our business
Gathered orders - define your business
Local orders - our business

WE do not define our business or our customers, our customers do.

PF can do it all. Who cares! Kudos to them and their investors for creating this market for themselves and Kudos to TF for getting more orders for their network of florists who are part of that network to get orders.

Do I want an alternative, yes. Do I want drop shipping to go away, yes. (I want a money tree too) Do I want their shady ads and false product pics to go away, yes. This is not TF's responsibility. Perhaps SAF could tackle this one?

Can the average florist fill wires and be successful? No, I don't think so. I heard numbers this weekend that the average florist in Canada is 180-220k per year.

Will I ever be a part of a big wire service? Yes. If it makes sense for my business. Right now, it doesn't. (My current estimate for Dragonfly is 1 million in sales per year to be successful filing wire orders (others can do it for less - Nicole, if you would like to hear why I think that, you are welcome to PM or call me, but I am sure you already know the answers)

I will change this opinion when someone comes up with a better idea for gathering orders for a network in this day and age. Please do!

 

[CHR]

How would they do that? While the false advertising and everything else drives me to :hammer: and :fdevil: who has the power to do that? Certainly not TF.

Sure they do - we do, too.

There are several avenues available, the swiftest being:

1) Pay $6K - $10K to file a complaint/challenge with the NAD.

TF's parent company (a member of NAD) has gone that route regarding advertising of pomegranate products by competitors (and has been a target by other competitors.)

Why does everyone think that an entity like FTD or TF has to be for the florist all the time. It drives me nuts to hear this stuff on a constant basis. Their business is gathering orders the best way they know how and profiting from it.

I don't expect TF or anyone else to challenge the ads, but the question was asked so I answered. They're the only national flower marketer not drop shipping and using images of arrangements to sell them.

You all have to remove the face of the company and emotions from these issues and focus on the industry sectors. Technology and cheap shipping have created monsters. It doesn't matter what name the monster takes, it will be there in one way, shape or form. If there wasn't PF, there would be someone else doing it.

I was trying to sound more analytical than emotional but looks like I failed. PF's market share zoomed after they started showing arrangements instead of bouquets. Take a look at one of their old home pages from archive.org. Looks a lot like what many of the other drop shippers still show today. That's partly why they're still small and PF isn't.

A couple of the guys who've worked for the company have admitted to me that the current images are misleading to consumers.

Much of the issues we face are due to changing times, yet IMO this one is partially due to failure of florists to aggressively challenge the product marketing.

 

[clay]

Yes, they should be using these images (but they still would not be "fresh from the farm") http://web.archive.org/web/20000520014833/www4.proflowers.com/flowersintherough/index.cfm?lng=&REF=

 

[BOSS]

Kudos to TF for getting more orders for their network of florists who are part of that network to get orders.

Do I want their shady ads and false product pics to go away, yes. This is not TF's responsibility. Perhaps SAF could tackle this one?

Boo...hiss.....

I didn't want to slam your whole post with a thumbs down, just these parts...

On the first sentence, it's enabling "same day delivery" to one of the biggest competitors of local florists, and a company that continually slams "florists" in a negative way.

On the second, it IS Teleflora's responsibility, just like it's FTD's to protect the florists and consumers alike. They simply turn a blind eye in favor of $$.

 

[CHERYL BAKIN]

As Cathy said, reporting their false advertising claims to NAD would be a start.

Supplying information to the federal and state attorney generals on the deceptive advertising practices, and standing behind and supporting any investigation of this company would be a great start.

Not getting into bed with one of the greatest deceptive flower brokers would be an even bigger start.

And yes, TF and FTD and 1-800 all have the power to do this -- simply by saying NO THANK YOU!!

When you turn off the pipeline, then the oil cannot be delivered......get it?

As long as you have supplied the pipeline, then the oil or flowers will still be delivered.

By providing further access to the TF membership floral network, you have broadened the pipeline for a dropshipper. YOU HAVE GIVEN THEM THE ONLY THING THEY WERE LACKING, WHICH WAS SAME DAY DELIVERY. You have also taken away all consumer complaints & placed them sqarely on the shoulders of the delivering florists.

PF has scored a WIN - WIN on this one.
TF Florists are LOSE - LOSE.

Further, I see this as TF talking out of both sides of their mouth again --- "we would NEVER drop ship flowers." Maybe you, company don't, but you have gotten into bed with a COMPETITOR whose sole business is Drop ship. How does that support the local REAL Florist?


Cheryl

 

[duanermb]

YOU HAVE GIVEN THEM THE ONLY THING THEY WERE LACKING, WHICH WAS SAME DAY DELIVERY.

I guess we will have to disagree on this one.

(I do agree that it is odd, considering that they are promoting against drop shipping like mad in every florists publication I see)

Of all the above statements, I will comment on the above one only from a business standpoint:

- TF has eliminated a potentially huge competitor to their same day sales.

- Member florists WILL get more orders.

- Boxed flowers customers are not florists customers.

- PF has the cash and will to create their own network of same day florists, and the lions share of florists would go for it if the deal was right.

PF has the ability to create their own partnership with anyone

Bloomex here in Canada is partnered with them, and in the major centers across Canada, they provide same day delivery from their warehouse locations.

There isn't any local florists getting ANY of that business. Just Dimitri and his rather large team of online reputation managers and reviewers.

Would you like to see that in the US as well?

At least this way, TF has kept same day delivery with the local florists. And again, I applaud them for that.

 

[inferno63]

You all have to remove the face of the company and emotions from these issues and focus on the industry sectors. Technology and cheap shipping have created monsters. It doesn't matter what name the monster takes, it will be there in one way, shape or form. If there wasn't PF, there would be someone else doing it.

Drop Ship Flowers - not our business
Flowers with your daily bread and milk - not our business
Gathered orders - define your business
Local orders - our business

Sorry to be the bearer of some bad news but I need to make a correction:

Local orders - your business and shared with OGs and WS enabled OGs and Proflowers.

If you think for one minute that they are not in your backyard you better take another look. Would you welcome another florist to set up shop on your property and use your supplies and cooler? Would you enable them to compete directly with you while you bear the expense of overhead, supplies, and investment? Being "ok" with their presence and poo-pooing competing against them because you believe your local market is locked up is scary. That is how they rose to the position they are now....because florist ignored them sneaking up behind them.

 

[duanermb]

Sorry to be the bearer of some bad news but I need to make a correction:

Local orders - your business and shared with OGs and WS enabled OGs and Proflowers.

If you think for one minute that they are not in your backyard you better take another look. Would you welcome another florist to set up shop on your property and use your supplies and cooler? Would you enable them to compete directly with you while you bear the expense of overhead, supplies, and investment? Being "ok" with their presence and poo-pooing competing against them because you believe your local market is locked up is scary. That is how they rose to the position they are now....because florist ignored them sneaking up behind them.

I didn't mean that it is ONLY our business, I meant that boxed flowers is THEIR business, and there is nothing we can do about it, so why get hot and bothered about it. Read my rebuttal above as well.

 

[Kristine]

Not getting into bed with one of the greatest deceptive flower brokers would be an even bigger start.

And yes, TF and FTD and 1-800 all have the power to do this -- simply by saying NO THANK YOU!!

When you turn off the pipeline, then the oil cannot be delivered......get it?

As long as you have supplied the pipeline, then the oil or flowers will still be delivered.

By providing further access to the TF membership floral network, you have broadened the pipeline for a dropshipper. YOU HAVE GIVEN THEM THE ONLY THING THEY WERE LACKING, WHICH WAS SAME DAY DELIVERY. You have also taken away all consumer complaints & placed them sqarely on the shoulders of the delivering florists.

PF has scored a WIN - WIN on this one.
TF Florists are LOSE - LOSE.

Further, I see this as TF talking out of both sides of their mouth again --- "we would NEVER drop ship flowers." Maybe you, company don't, but you have gotten into bed with a COMPETITOR whose sole business is Drop ship. How does that support the local REAL Florist?


Cheryl

Yup, for TF it's JUST BUSINESS and that means $$ and the bottom line FOR THEM

and like my dad always said:
when you sleep with the dogs you get fleas - or worse

so for me: Yup it's just business - MINE> and I don't whore for anyone

 

[Chezbloom]

I don't applaud PF for anything. They misrepresent their products. I don't admire companies that lie and deceive no matter how much cash they scoop up.

 

[CHR]

I'm trying to do a little research here with all of you to see what you know/assume about the impact (positive or negative) of drop shipping on the floral industry.

I'm repeating Nicole's OP to kind of bring this back to the main topic.

AFAICT, drop shipping has had a negative affect at the B&M retail level. Not sure what the experience is at the farm level, but my guess is it has strengthened the (larger) farms who participate and further weakened the smaller ones who don't. (Of course, those same farms sell to us - but at much higher prices.)

Did anyone notice the flower prices on PFs site in the Archive.org link? They're almost the same as today's prices on their site - 9 years later. What's really different is the shipping fee ($5.95 - $7.95 back then). They've moved the fee from the home page and product pages to a much more difficult to find & calculate page. Even with the basic $19.95 purchase, the shipping seems to start at $13. Holiday (esp. prime time Saturday deliveries) can hit $30 or more. IIRC, the total in shipping fees is not disclosed until the customer has entered their CC info.

PF looks to have actually kept up with inflation via shipping fees, not product fees. Something to think about...

 

[meherr]

We do this for the funeral directors who direct an enormous amount of work our direction (otherwise, they would have to do it themselves) and for the deceased's family who are not generally up to DIY flowers. Trust me, it does not make PF look good - the ones we've seen could not "look good" without us actually using new flowers and adding our own greenery. Basically, we add water, re-cut stems and stick them in the supplied vase. There are never enough stems or open blooms to allow for actual "designing" and it still bears the PF enclosure card.

So, if one of your funeral directors (who happens to own 5 funeral homes in your delivery area) brought this in to your shop and requested that you do something with it, you would just risk losing their business and tell them no? IMO that would be counterproductive to our personal survival and an extremely stoooopid move for the 2 or 3 times it happens a year.

 

[CHERYL BAKIN]

Duane:

YOu need to go back & do some research on the premises that PF was founded on:

THEY VOWED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING TO PUT ALL FLORISTS OUT OF BUSINESS. THEY WOULD DO THIS VIA DROP-SHIP, FROM THEIR OWN FULFILLMENT CENTERS.

It has only been because they are losing too many people in the shopping cart abandonment process, when they cannot deliver SAME DAY that they have to come to TF to "PARTNER".

To me, this is like getting into the tank with a shark or a tiger.
We will get all the "same day" shipping orders. We will be asked to make it look good, and to supply all products shown on their website at their often ridiculously low pricing -- and will receive no extra funds for our efforts.

ALL THE REAL FLORISTS WILL DO IS MAKE PF LOOK GOOD, IN THE EYES OF THE CONSUMER.

We will be the ones that are bombarded with orders on Dec 21 to 24, Feb 12 to 14 and May 7-10, when they are unable to DIRECT SHIP THOSE ORDERS -- AND GET THEM THERE ON TIME.

I'll say it again -- PF has pursued this partnership because they were losing too many orders at cart abondonment when the consumer realized that they couldn't get it delivered "same day" or "next day" (if ordered after 2 or 3 pm). PF needs a Same Day Reliable Delivery Network. That's all.

If TF did not supply it, PF could turn to FTD -- whose florist network is shrinking daily -- or 1-800 -- one of their direct competitors. They chose TF because it has the largest membership base (IE most coverage) AND it currently does not direct ship to anywhere (thus no direct competition to them).

We have just given up the only Trump Card that we hold -- Same Day delivery.!!!!

Cheryl

 

[TOTO]

If I touch it, it's MINE!

We do this for the funeral directors who direct an enormous amount of work our direction (otherwise, they would have to do it themselves) and for the deceased's family who are not generally up to DIY flowers. Trust me, it does not make PF look good - the ones we've seen could not "look good" without us actually using new flowers and adding our own greenery. Basically, we add water, re-cut stems and stick them in the supplied vase. There are never enough stems or open blooms to allow for actual "designing" and it still bears the PF enclosure card.

So, if one of your funeral directors (who happens to own 5 funeral homes in your delivery area) brought this in to your shop and requested that you do something with it, you would just risk losing their business and tell them no? IMO that would be counterproductive to our personal survival and an extremely stoooopid move for the 2 or 3 times it happens a year.

Each Funeral Director handles the DO-IT-ALL-YOURSELF drop shipped kit in a box different ways.

In our area, all the Funeral Directors hand the boxed flowers to the family at the end of that day's viewing hours or on the morning of the service. They do not put them in the viewing area, nor will they arrange them, not that they could anyway.

Brings to mind the funeral director who was next door to our Yonkers Store. We had one florist who recycled other funeral home flowers to a fault. In some cases, they were so stupid, they forgot to take the prior sympathy card off the piece and just put the new card on it. With TWO cards on same the piece, that resulted in confusion for the immediate family members and probably resulted in a NON DELIVERY complaint at the first funeral service as that card was never retrieved by the funeral director, and so, not given to that first family.

The funeral director called me on three occasions and asked if I would please come over and FIX the funeral basket which was leaking as the mache container, having been reused too many times, was now leaking water all over her carpet.

Being the NICE GUY, I had no other choice but to take the funeral basket back into our shop, use a new mache container, and make a completely new design using their old flowers.

Did it twice and on her third request, I went over to the funeral home and upon inspecting a TOTAL DISASTER, I told her this.

"Sorry Ann, but this basket cannot be helped by anyone. It is GARBAGE and an embarrassment to this family. I can't fix it so please call that florist and ask him to come back to your funeral home and pick up his junk. Also, and in the future, please do not call me to ask if I can come over to fix another florist's mistake. Just call them."

In your case, I can understand why you would choose to DO A FAVOR for that funeral director. At the same time, I would use the next opportunity to tell him of what other funeral directors are doing with those boxed flowers with the hopes that, he installs the same policy at his homes for the future.

It's simply NOT FAIR to allow this DECEPTION to continue as the sender picks a FLORAL ARRANGEMENT from those sites while the family in mourning receives a DO-IT-ALL-THEMSELVES kit in a box.

While I would never grace their kits with my professional ability to design THEIR FLOWERS into a FLORAL ARRANGEMENT, I can say this;

If I ever did, their name would come off those flowers and my name would go on them, even if that meant rewriting the sender's sympathy card, providing the flowers weren't JUNK to begin with.

Doing a FAVOR once in awhile is a nice gesture on your part. But, sooner or later, that funeral director needs to change their policy.

Otherwise, the PROBLEM will never be solved at your end.

 

[BOSS]

BOSS's Quote of the day!

It has only been because they are losing too many people in the shopping cart abandonment process, when they cannot deliver SAME DAY that they have to come to TF to "PARTNER".

ALL THE REAL FLORISTS WILL DO IS MAKE PF LOOK GOOD, IN THE EYES OF THE CONSUMER.

We will be the ones that are bombarded with orders on Dec 21 to 24, Feb 12 to 14 and May 7-10, when they are unable to DIRECT SHIP THOSE ORDERS -- AND GET THEM THEIR IN TIME.

We have just given up the only Trump Card that we hold -- Same Day delivery.!!!!
Cheryl

Cheryl's exactly right... not to mention, that ProFlowers will make more on the order than the filling florist will!
On a $50.00 order ProFlowers will get $32.95 (or more) with NO COG'S

Filler Fool will get $35.50 (maybe) less transmission charge, Delivery and COG'S

Work's for THEM, not for ME.

I'll just say it again... You can't TRUST and COMPANY ORDER these days!