The Consumerist's 2011 Valentine's Day Garden Of Discontent

[Doug Munro]

Again, I agree with Doug (better go see the doc)... where this pertains to "in store" sales for local consumption. No one is going to call Costco to send flowers to someone, but they will buy to "take with". The big boxes are affecting local sales.

However that said, the 10,000,000+++ orders a year that flow from order gatherers and "company stores" are doing more damage to the long term health of the industry.

BTW, I don't believe SAF's numbers... they sleep with the wire services.

Boss,

So you agree with me, but don't believe SAF's numbers.....lol. Considering that my whole post is based on SAF's numbers that as Mr. Spock would say "is not logical". I have a question

Where does the "10,000,000+++ orders a year that flow from order gatherers and "company stores" number that you quote originate from?

The reality is that this is not a contest to determine who is damaging the traditional retail florist trade more, OG, WS's or Big Boxes. The bottom line here is that the retail florists traditional business model is under attack from various directions, some more so than others.

I will point out that out of the "10,000,000 orders" that you refer to many of these are ultimately filled by the retail florist. Yes, at a discount, none the less they are still providing revenue to the local florist. Unfortunately the same can not be said for any of the flowers sold by grocery stores and mass merchandisers. Yes they are all walk in, but that does not change the fact that the bulk of this is business that the florist is losing.

Hopefully we can agree on this.

 

[BOSS]

Where does the "10,000,000+++ orders a year that flow from order gatherers and "company stores" number that you quote originate from?

As you know, I have my reliable sources... consider that FromYouFlowers has 950,000 orders ALONE, and BloomsToday-AmericaBlooms-LaurensFlowers.coN's has even more, you have 2,000,000+/- orders in 2 companies alone. I have some numbers for others, guesstimates for others and I think the 10,000,000 is a "conservative" number where it pertains to gathered orders. Add in FTD.com, Teleflora's company sales site (yes they have one), 800Flowers.com(1,000,000+ here), Weasley Berry (shall I go on?) and it adds up quickly. EVERY one of the orders has the bulk of profit removed, PLUS the customer is paying an extra $14.95 for nothing, raising the perception that "flowers are expensive".

Perhaps, the perception of grocery/big box floral sales is a regional thing. In my area, we have seen these portions of the stores shrink for the last two-four years. Walmart here no longer has a "flower shop". Where they had a perhaps 1000 sq ft area with coolers, plants and all, they now have a cooler rack selling only pre-made bunches. Krogers has shrunk theirs as well. Rite-Aid eliminated selling perishables last year. So maybe my view is skewed a bit here. Yes, I think anyone selling fresh is a problem, and yes I think we can win the battle, but we have to do it with superior quality and service, not pricing.

I too have a question for your Doug: How healthy do you think the industry would be if all orders began and ended with a local florist? Better yet, how healthy would it be if all orders were consumer>florist? (not speaking of cash and carry sales here)

We'll never stop the big boxes, they will always have a chunk, but we can out-service them. Yes, I do agree that ultimately those 10,000,000 orders are filled by a florist (except the millions that are converted to drop-ship), but I ask at what cost? And yes, I agree we are losing 'some' of the walk-in sales to groceries and big boxes, but I know in my case, we have seen an upswing in walk-in sales the last 4-5 months, and I do think the consumer too is finally realizing that shopping with a local mom and pop slob retailer (no matter the industry) is in the long term best interest of their communities, and we are starting to see a back-lash against big-business.

{added} BTW Doug, your "if the numbers are to be believed" led me to believe that you too had reservations on the numbers.

 

[Doug Munro]

I too have a question for your Doug: How healthy do you think the industry would be if all orders began and ended with a local florist? Better yet, how healthy would it be if all orders were consumer>florist? (not speaking of cash and carry sales here)

Boss, While this is an interesting question the reality is that the industry has changed considerably from the days when all orders began and ended with the local florist. As a group we can all dwell on the "might have beens" or "what the industry might look like if only", however we are stuck with the present. The bottom line is that while not perfect much of the direction our industry has gone in has been at the discretion of the consumer, (particularly in the case of supermarkets and mass merchandisers). The same phenomenon is being played out (or already has been) in virtually every retail sector from meat to hardware and many of these sectors have also seen a huge decrease in the number of independent small operators.

BTW Doug, your "if the numbers are to be believed" led me to believe that you too had reservations on the numbers.

When I stated this I was not inferring that SAF was not to be trusted, simply that I did not know the methodology nor the scope of the survey. I for one believe that the numbers SAF published are an accurate reflection of what they determined. I see no reason why SAF would "fudge" the numbers particularly if as you say they "sleep with the wire services", wouldn't they then cater the study for that group.

 

[BOSS]

Boss, While this is an interesting question the reality is that the industry has changed considerably from the days when all orders began and ended with the local florist. As a group we can all dwell on the "might have beens" or "what the industry might look like if only", however we are stuck with the present. The bottom line is that while not perfect much of the direction our industry has gone in has been at the discretion of the consumer, (particularly in the case of supermarkets and mass merchandisers). The same phenomenon is being played out (or already has been) in virtually every retail sector from meat to hardware and many of these sectors have also seen a huge decrease in the number of independent small operators.

Hmm... a non-answer...

I counter with, if the filling of gathered orders (even all transferred orders) ceased to exist, the industry would regain 50% of it's health in short order. Also, much of the direction the industry has gone in has been at the direction of the BIG3 without regard for the fall out leveled on the local florist. Yes the consumer has dictated cash and carry sales, but I believe that florists gave this up not wanting to deal with nickles and dimes sales and focusing on larger price tags. We left that niche open to pirates...

Also, my friend Steve, a meat market operator says business has never been better, he's selling less meat, at higher prices and making more NET than he was before Walmart came to town... kind of the same way I see flowers...fewer florists selling flowers IMO is a good thing, as long as the ones that are are selling quality at a fair price.

(I forgot to add in the other post, we do not have a Costco or Sam's Club here so I have no idea how that might affect my local market)

 

[Doug Munro]

Boss,

I am not avoiding the question, I simply don't see the sense of providing you an answer that you all ready know. Hers a question for you>

Would the big 3 NAmerican auto manufacturers be in better shape today if Japan and Korea never started building cars? What would the price of a car be today if there were only 3 manufacturers? Better yet, would the big 3 ever have addressed theeir quality issues.

My point here is that if the wire services disapeared tomorrow it would in no way guarantee a return to the past for the average florist. The options for gifting havbe changed dramtically and the consumer has a wide range of options. Also as convenient as it might be to write off the supermarkets and mass merchandisers as "pirates" who the florist willing ceded a portion of the flower market to, the reality is at Valentine's 2011 that portion was 65% of flower sales compared to the 26% the florist held.

As for you friend Steve the butcher, lets see what tune he sings if a Walmart, Safeway, Publix, ot Costco opens up down the street

The bottom line is that the reasonthe florist showed a paltry 26% of sales at Valentines is because he has a great deal more competition from a number of sources.

 

[BOSS]

Heres a question for you>

Would the big 3 NAmerican auto manufacturers be in better shape today if Japan and Korea never started building cars? What would the price of a car be today if there were only 3 manufacturers? Better yet, would the big 3 ever have addressed theeir quality issues.

I understand your point, and we do agree... and to answer your question... they may or may not be in better shape, the price of a vehicle would be 45% less if not for the unions, and the quality issues would have been taken care of in the same way, based on superior product...maybe... Buick built better cars, but the brand died.

As to my friend Steve, he has Walmart, Meijers and Gordon Foods(bulk sales), all within 2 miles of his shop... he'll be just fine, as will any florist that carves out a niche (top or bottom) for themselves, it's the middle of the road folks that will disappear...

We do agree Doug, we just look at different aspects of the same issue.

 

[anytimeflowers]

I excerpted this from the story because I think it's being overlooked.

The older group tended to make more purchases at mass merchandisers/wholesale clubs (25 percent) and national Internet floral services, including wire services (11 percent). None of the responders in the 18- to 24-year-old category made purchases from these outlets.

Split out this way, it is much less alarming. I was wondering where the og's were in the picture because they were not listed in the post here. I often marvel at the way SAF seems to act like the "National Internet Floral Services" are so piddly they hardly warrant mention.

I find it comforting to know that even though there are less traditional florists than there were just a year or two ago, we still have maintained our market share.

I still believe that there are more flower purchases today than there were 20 years ago.

I do know that some of my own customers purchase flowers at the grocery store and elsewhere. Those people come to me for their special occasions and roses. Those other times that they purchase elsewhere are impulse purchases. They would not have bought flowers at all if they had not seen them at the mass merchandiser.

That is not a lost sale to me, that is a person who is one of the 20% of the American population who feel that flowers are important to them. We say we want to grow the overall number of people who find flowers to be important but we must face the reality that if that number grows to 30% of the population, we don't get the whole extra 10%. It does mean a 2.6% increase for the traditional retail florist.

I'll take it.

 

[duanermb]

I still believe that there are more flower purchases today than there were 20 years ago.

Well, at least there is one piece of fact in this whole discussion to hang our hat on. Thanks!

Its proven by the numbers that nobody on this forum seems to want to admit exist.

 

[ChristiBrown]

I agree with Boss, I have increased my business in the last year by offering superior service and offering flowers that the mass marketers don't. Proteas, lilies, quality roses, hydrangeas, flowering spring branches, Van Dyke tulips. I don't try to compete on daisies and alstro (I have some, but not a great deal), in fact I tell them if they "see some at the grocery store that look nice to buy them, they are a great price, I want you to be used to having flowers in your house all the time, when you get bored then you will buy more unusual stuff from me, then you will see my vase life and will buy from me more often". They laugh, but it makes them think. And guess what, they do come back. I can't tell you how many people tell me that their flowers have lasted over two weeks and that their grocery store flowers only last a few days. I emphasize vase life from proper handling (buy $15 s.s. roses from grocery that last 3 days, $5 per day; mine wrapped $20 last at least 14 days so effectively $1.43 per day, but even if they take lousy care and they only last 7 days it still is almost half of the grocery stores at $2.86 per day and my wrap has better presentation!) and unusual flowers that they don't see every day. So like the butcher, I do better when I focus on the business I want to do and let the mass retailer do the cheap stuff. (oh and can I say how glad I am that I dropped FTD and Bloomnet last summer and don't have to stock so many cheap flowers, I think that the change in what is in my cooler (better flowers sell themselves) has helped my sales so much that it replaced and out grew the volume I had before not even counting the benefit of not paying so many fees!)

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Well, at least there is one piece of fact in this whole discussion to hang our hat on. Thanks!

Its proven by the numbers that nobody on this forum seems to want to admit exist.

say what??......

 

[Doug Munro]

I agree with Boss, I have increased my business in the last year by offering superior service and offering flowers that the mass marketers don't. Proteas, lilies, quality roses, hydrangeas, flowering spring branches, Van Dyke tulips. I don't try to compete on daisies and alstro (I have some, but not a great deal), in fact I tell them if they "see some at the grocery store that look nice to buy them, they are a great price, I want you to be used to having flowers in your house all the time, when you get bored then you will buy more unusual stuff from me, then you will see my vase life and will buy from me more often". They laugh, but it makes them think. And guess what, they do come back. I can't tell you how many people tell me that their flowers have lasted over two weeks and that their grocery store flowers only last a few days. I emphasize vase life from proper handling (buy $15 s.s. roses from grocery that last 3 days, $5 per day; mine wrapped $20 last at least 14 days so effectively $1.43 per day, but even if they take lousy care and they only last 7 days it still is almost half of the grocery stores at $2.86 per day and my wrap has better presentation!) and unusual flowers that they don't see every day. So like the butcher, I do better when I focus on the business I want to do and let the mass retailer do the cheap stuff. (oh and can I say how glad I am that I dropped FTD and Bloomnet last summer and don't have to stock so many cheap flowers, I think that the change in what is in my cooler (better flowers sell themselves) has helped my sales so much that it replaced and out grew the volume I had before not even counting the benefit of not paying so many fees!)

Christi,
In todays world the florists that survive will need to do exactly what you are doing. This is a message we have been communicating to our own stores for over a decade.

Like the local butcher who decades ago was on every corner and today is few and far between the long term survivors in our industry will be those that become their "Community Flower Experts" . Small meat markets surviving in todays world learned this, they provide custom freezer packs, meat cutting to customer specifications, suggest the best cuts for recipes, etc. As flower retailers we all need to be the flower experts in our own communities, the "go to place" when the consumer needs information, good quality flowers, or just "something special"

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Christi,
In todays world the florists that survive will need to do exactly what you are doing. This is a message we have been communicating to our own stores for over a decade.

Like the local butcher who decades ago was on every corner and today is few and far between the long term survivors in our industry will be those that become their "Community Flower Experts" . Small meat markets surviving in todays world learned this, they provide custom freezer packs, meat cutting to customer specifications, suggest the best cuts for recipes, etc. As flower retailers we all need to be the flower experts in our own communities, the "go to place" when the consumer needs information, good quality flowers, or just "something special"

thanks Doug...I'm sure that the shops that "shout" the loudest will fail to survive, and those whom are "shouted ABOUT", are the ones that will remain!

 

[Doug Munro]

thanks Doug...I'm sure that the shops that "shout" the loudest will fail to survive, and those whom are "shouted ABOUT", are the ones that will remain!

Mikey,
Great way to put it, it says everything!

The bottom line is a shop can complain about the WS's, OG's, Supermarkets, Mass Merchandisers, the APTDEA, the price of gas, or pretty much anything under the sun for that matter. Unfortunately that changes nothing and in no way improves their own day to day business. Trust me, I am not suggesting that these issues be ignored by the average flower retailer, I am simply suggesting that the not be focused on, it is far too easy for any of us to blame our business woes on the "other guy".

The most important thing any retailer can and should focus on is improving their own business. At times this means some serious soul searching, what used to work may not any more and a retailer may have to and should be willing to jump out of their own comfort zone. Too often I hear or read a florist stating that they have been in the business long enough to know what they are doing.....lol. Great thought, but at the pace things are changing I certainly will not make that claim. In the 30 years I have been in the flower industry things have changed so much that at times I am pressed to keep up.

As a friend of mine often says ........
There are too many people in the flower business and not enough in the "business of flowers"

Just food for thought

 

[BOSS]

Like the local butcher who decades ago was on every corner and today is few and far between the long term survivors in our industry will be those that become their "Community Flower Experts" . Small meat markets surviving in todays world learned this, they provide custom freezer packs, meat cutting to customer specifications, suggest the best cuts for recipes, etc. As flower retailers we all need to be the flower experts in our own communities, the "go to place" when the consumer needs information, good quality flowers, or just "something special"

See... we do agree adapt...continue...flourish

I'm sure that the shops that "shout" the loudest will fail to survive, and those whom are "shouted ABOUT", are the ones that will remain!

I'm doomed.... guess I'll crawl back under my rock...

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

See... we do agree adapt...continue...flourish


I'm doomed.... guess I'll crawl back under my rock...

it appears I'll be joining you......