believe it or not - it was part of an ftd convention - not sure what it was - but it dealt with the business of doing floral trade -
get everything this guy has!!
get everything this guy has!!
Why consumers fear wiring out flowers...
- Thread starter Rhonda
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Some opinions about WS orders as versus direct.
Well now that everything has calmed down abit and you guys are not jumping up and down and waiving your hands in the air and at each other, let's see if we can sort this out.
Bloomzie, your asked, "who checks the quality of the florist direct shops?" Your right. No one does. We were all either FTD or TF or both at one time. Personnally I was FTD, TF and AFS at one time or another during a 16 years period. We met all the requirements of any of these WS and yet the only one that visited us on a regular basis was AFS and TF at the end and that was because of the reps - they were doing their job. The problem today is it is very doubtful if ANYONE is checking ANY shops. It is about the collection of monthly dues and fees and neither WS is going to terminate any florist for poor preformance because of the loss of those dues and fees.
But what difference does it make if direct florists like myself are not reviewed by anyone. As we no longer belong to a WS, we are therefore no longer listed in any WS directory, we DO NOT get any incoming orders from you to be filled. You can't find us. We can only send orders and if the orders are from guys like me, they are UNDISCOUNTED orders. See Bloomzie, I used that new term just for you. Which brings me to why I DON'T ask for a commission from the receiving florist. None of us have the ability to tell when we send an order to another florist these days if that florist has a postive ratio of outgoing to incoming, has made their "bogey number" for the month or has a policy of "shaving" the incoming order. We just don't know and neither do you. I rely on giving the florist an UNDISCOUNTED order to fill to value and WS florists rely on the WS to make it right. We are both dealing with the same "Gene Pool" of florists when it comes to filling our orders. We have no way of knowing who is more professional then any other florist in the system.
I HAVE HAD one complaint in two years. A father was sending both his daughters floral arrangements for Valentines Day at work. One was in the far west Chicago surburbs and the other was located on Michigan Ave in downtown Chicago. Both for $50 including delivery. The one on Michigan Ave got a BUD VASE with two stems of oriental lilies and some beat grass and $10 for delivery to a location 2 blocks away. I refunded a portion of his order.
And lastly, as an independent florist, I can't speak for everyone else but in many ways we have alot of advantages over larger florists. Independent means you can go in different directions. BOSS, who has been very honest with his numbers, is absolutely right. It is near impossible for someone like this to go independent and start calling out all their order. And it blunt terms, that is a weakness. Many florists can't go in another direction. They will either lose too much revenue from loss of commission and rebates or have a fear that the technology they have invested in is not going to be compatable with whatever the "next guy" brings up as an alternative. They are not to be faulted for investing in this technology as it was necessary for their business to grow, but the data thet they have compiled through the years will probably not be transferrable to someone elses system. Hense, you have continue to ride the horse that brought you!
It is not that florists can't afford WS anymore. It is more the fact of not agreeing to the direction the wire services are going and do you want to continue to financially support them in going in that direction.
Well now that everything has calmed down abit and you guys are not jumping up and down and waiving your hands in the air and at each other, let's see if we can sort this out.
Bloomzie, your asked, "who checks the quality of the florist direct shops?" Your right. No one does. We were all either FTD or TF or both at one time. Personnally I was FTD, TF and AFS at one time or another during a 16 years period. We met all the requirements of any of these WS and yet the only one that visited us on a regular basis was AFS and TF at the end and that was because of the reps - they were doing their job. The problem today is it is very doubtful if ANYONE is checking ANY shops. It is about the collection of monthly dues and fees and neither WS is going to terminate any florist for poor preformance because of the loss of those dues and fees.
But what difference does it make if direct florists like myself are not reviewed by anyone. As we no longer belong to a WS, we are therefore no longer listed in any WS directory, we DO NOT get any incoming orders from you to be filled. You can't find us. We can only send orders and if the orders are from guys like me, they are UNDISCOUNTED orders. See Bloomzie, I used that new term just for you. Which brings me to why I DON'T ask for a commission from the receiving florist. None of us have the ability to tell when we send an order to another florist these days if that florist has a postive ratio of outgoing to incoming, has made their "bogey number" for the month or has a policy of "shaving" the incoming order. We just don't know and neither do you. I rely on giving the florist an UNDISCOUNTED order to fill to value and WS florists rely on the WS to make it right. We are both dealing with the same "Gene Pool" of florists when it comes to filling our orders. We have no way of knowing who is more professional then any other florist in the system.
I HAVE HAD one complaint in two years. A father was sending both his daughters floral arrangements for Valentines Day at work. One was in the far west Chicago surburbs and the other was located on Michigan Ave in downtown Chicago. Both for $50 including delivery. The one on Michigan Ave got a BUD VASE with two stems of oriental lilies and some beat grass and $10 for delivery to a location 2 blocks away. I refunded a portion of his order.
And lastly, as an independent florist, I can't speak for everyone else but in many ways we have alot of advantages over larger florists. Independent means you can go in different directions. BOSS, who has been very honest with his numbers, is absolutely right. It is near impossible for someone like this to go independent and start calling out all their order. And it blunt terms, that is a weakness. Many florists can't go in another direction. They will either lose too much revenue from loss of commission and rebates or have a fear that the technology they have invested in is not going to be compatable with whatever the "next guy" brings up as an alternative. They are not to be faulted for investing in this technology as it was necessary for their business to grow, but the data thet they have compiled through the years will probably not be transferrable to someone elses system. Hense, you have continue to ride the horse that brought you!
It is not that florists can't afford WS anymore. It is more the fact of not agreeing to the direction the wire services are going and do you want to continue to financially support them in going in that direction.
I can speak to the quality issue, as a Teleflora shop. We have VERY few complaints - especially in relation to the volume we send. Any complaints we do have to forward to the WS to deal with are dealt with IMMEDIATELY.
TF does have a test order program and a 3-strikes policy (applies to test orders and serious complaints).
As to the direct vs wire service issue:
Like Boss, our volume makes direct sending impossible. We would also max out our credit cards in no time
Both the WS shop and the direct shop rely on the same means for evaluating quality. Customer Feedback. We track customer feedback on WS orders through our POS system (most systems can do this, as well as paper-based or direct shops) and funnel orders to shops that generate quality results.
The goal for both is the same. Deliver quality service to your customers while making a little coin for yourself in the process. In many ways, the volume of the shop can dictate the choices - low volume shops many have little need for the itemized statement, selection guide and quality guarantee provided by a wire service. Yes, these are all "services" and like most services they come with a price tag. As a shop owner you have to decide whether you want to pay for the service or not.
You will not convince me, though, that sending direct provides a better experience for the customer.
Ryan
TF does have a test order program and a 3-strikes policy (applies to test orders and serious complaints).
As to the direct vs wire service issue:
Like Boss, our volume makes direct sending impossible. We would also max out our credit cards in no time
Both the WS shop and the direct shop rely on the same means for evaluating quality. Customer Feedback. We track customer feedback on WS orders through our POS system (most systems can do this, as well as paper-based or direct shops) and funnel orders to shops that generate quality results. The goal for both is the same. Deliver quality service to your customers while making a little coin for yourself in the process. In many ways, the volume of the shop can dictate the choices - low volume shops many have little need for the itemized statement, selection guide and quality guarantee provided by a wire service. Yes, these are all "services" and like most services they come with a price tag. As a shop owner you have to decide whether you want to pay for the service or not.
You will not convince me, though, that sending direct provides a better experience for the customer.
Ryan
George Simon
I Suck Cuz I'm Banned
Funny, you all talk about your volume not allowing you to give orders out over the phone, but I have a customer who is (and has been for many years) a top 100 sending florist for Teleflora and he doesn't even have a Dove system! He has always given his orders out over the telephone, even during holidays. He is a send only florist (but not an OG) and does quite a bit of volume in NYC. All his orders are outgoing orders, so I can't understand why if he can do it, you guys can't do it. Unless, of course, you are doing an incredible amount of outgoing orders. Maybe someone can post some numbers. How many outgoing orders do you handle each day? 20, 30, more?
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
O.K. George
Secondly, NO Dove, no big deal.
And to the numbers....a normal Summer day for me would be 10-15 orders...no big deal, I agree...
However the week prior to Thanksgiving, an average of 50-75 a day, the month of December, an average of 75 or so a day, and the week of Mothers Day another 75 or so a day.
All done by technology once the order is taken, with no intervention on anyones part. HARD (electronic) copy of EVERY order, ASK, ANS and price change and the person running the technology on the other end.
Not to mention delivery confirmations to the originating florist, as well as PRE-maping for my drivers, and more.
Also, lets not forget the INbound side, where the orders flow into my biz, without the need to answer the phone, and/or call the originating shop for further information and such.
The above mentioned volume is handled by one person and is only part of their daily responsibilities. I would be curious as to how many folks your TOP 100friend has doing nothing but wire outs at peak times, and/or how many additional employees are required to accomplish this impressive feat!
BTW, last I checked I was number 169...
One other thing, if he is a "customer" of yours, he must have Soft...so I would assume he uses technology to some extent, interesting that he has such great volume, but does not utalize the technology he has...
First off, thats funny, SEND ONLY but NOT an OG...excuse me. As he has a real shop, yes he is a florist, but IMHO anyone that does not take INcoming orders is an OG to some extent.George Simon said:
Secondly, NO Dove, no big deal.
And to the numbers....a normal Summer day for me would be 10-15 orders...no big deal, I agree...
However the week prior to Thanksgiving, an average of 50-75 a day, the month of December, an average of 75 or so a day, and the week of Mothers Day another 75 or so a day.
All done by technology once the order is taken, with no intervention on anyones part. HARD (electronic) copy of EVERY order, ASK, ANS and price change and the person running the technology on the other end.
Not to mention delivery confirmations to the originating florist, as well as PRE-maping for my drivers, and more.
Also, lets not forget the INbound side, where the orders flow into my biz, without the need to answer the phone, and/or call the originating shop for further information and such.
The above mentioned volume is handled by one person and is only part of their daily responsibilities. I would be curious as to how many folks your TOP 100friend has doing nothing but wire outs at peak times, and/or how many additional employees are required to accomplish this impressive feat!
BTW, last I checked I was number 169...
One other thing, if he is a "customer" of yours, he must have Soft...so I would assume he uses technology to some extent, interesting that he has such great volume, but does not utalize the technology he has...
George Simon
I Suck Cuz I'm Banned
I guess every florist is an OG in some way. You all try to obtain orders from your customers. What I meant by he's not an OG is that he does not get his orders through a website. To tell you the truth, I don't know if he even has one! He has a large number of customers that he has cultivated over the last 25+ years in business, before there was any real technology except for the Mercury and he didn't have that either, maybe because he was not an FTD member.
He was my 3rd or 4th customer (I think) so he has had technology for at least 15 years, probably more. He just chooses to give his orders over the phone. He runs his operation very efficiently as I don't think he has ever had more than 5 employees. Currently, it is only him and another person. During holidays, he hires a couple of additional clerks to man the phone lines.
He has no trucks, no drivers, no designers, no inventory and none of the expenses associated with them. He works strictly on the 20% and rebates he gets from the wire services.
Recently he asked me about the Dove and whether he should get one or not. So he is considering it but does not have one yet.
During non-holiday times, they have no problem handling the outgoing orders they get. During holidays, the way they work it is by entering the orders directly from the phone into flowerSoft and then one person sitting at a desk uses another flowerSoft module that gathers only the outgoing orders and displays them on a screen. That person selects the filling florist using their list of favorites florist or if they don't have one in the town or city the order is going to, they simply select one with an 800 from flowerSoft's database and the order gets called out.
I estimate that this process has to take at least 3 minutes per order. No doubt sending the orders out electronically is more efficient, no one is arguing that. But you also have to remember that he can probably handle well over 100 outgoing orders in one day. He also does not have the expense associated with having a Dove and let's not forget the number of orders that do not get reported by filling florists.
As far as his use of flowerSoft, about the only thing he does not use is the electronic sending of outgoing orders.
My point is that if he can do it, so can you. You just choose not to, and so would I.
He was my 3rd or 4th customer (I think) so he has had technology for at least 15 years, probably more. He just chooses to give his orders over the phone. He runs his operation very efficiently as I don't think he has ever had more than 5 employees. Currently, it is only him and another person. During holidays, he hires a couple of additional clerks to man the phone lines.
He has no trucks, no drivers, no designers, no inventory and none of the expenses associated with them. He works strictly on the 20% and rebates he gets from the wire services.
Recently he asked me about the Dove and whether he should get one or not. So he is considering it but does not have one yet.
During non-holiday times, they have no problem handling the outgoing orders they get. During holidays, the way they work it is by entering the orders directly from the phone into flowerSoft and then one person sitting at a desk uses another flowerSoft module that gathers only the outgoing orders and displays them on a screen. That person selects the filling florist using their list of favorites florist or if they don't have one in the town or city the order is going to, they simply select one with an 800 from flowerSoft's database and the order gets called out.
I estimate that this process has to take at least 3 minutes per order. No doubt sending the orders out electronically is more efficient, no one is arguing that. But you also have to remember that he can probably handle well over 100 outgoing orders in one day. He also does not have the expense associated with having a Dove and let's not forget the number of orders that do not get reported by filling florists.
As far as his use of flowerSoft, about the only thing he does not use is the electronic sending of outgoing orders.
My point is that if he can do it, so can you. You just choose not to, and so would I.
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
TIME OUT! HUH??????George Simon said:
None of the above?
Strictly OUTbound orders?
If so, he IS an Order Gatherer and nothing more! No matter that he gets his orders from "customers" over the phone.
Sorry George, but thats MY opinion.
BTW, how was your vacation?
George Simon
I Suck Cuz I'm Banned
Well, let's see.
He sends occasion reminders and does promotional mailings and cultivates corporate accounts. Does that make him an order gatherer? Don't you do those things?
If you consider someone who does not fill orders an order gatherer, then he is an order gatherer. I consider an order gatherer the ones that set up a website, sell exclusively though that website and advertise in states and towns where they are not located.
My vacation was very nice. The weather could have been better.
He sends occasion reminders and does promotional mailings and cultivates corporate accounts. Does that make him an order gatherer? Don't you do those things?
If you consider someone who does not fill orders an order gatherer, then he is an order gatherer. I consider an order gatherer the ones that set up a website, sell exclusively though that website and advertise in states and towns where they are not located.
My vacation was very nice. The weather could have been better.
George,
Basic Definition:
Order Gatherer - A person or business who operates with a primary goal of taking orders to pass on to florists while taking a commission. OG's may or may not have the ability to fill orders, but most the major focus of their business is getting orders by any means for others to fill at a discount.
Ex: 1-800-Flowers - Made their name and their business by the phone number, not the website. That came later
1-800-SEND-FTD - You see where I'm going with this ...
Order Gatherer = someone who gathers orders, without the intention of actually being the one to fill them, and without reasonable expectation of reciprocation.
Basic Definition:
Order Gatherer - A person or business who operates with a primary goal of taking orders to pass on to florists while taking a commission. OG's may or may not have the ability to fill orders, but most the major focus of their business is getting orders by any means for others to fill at a discount.
Ex: 1-800-Flowers - Made their name and their business by the phone number, not the website. That came later
1-800-SEND-FTD - You see where I'm going with this ...
Order Gatherer = someone who gathers orders, without the intention of actually being the one to fill them, and without reasonable expectation of reciprocation.
in my book - an order gatherer, is simply somebody Masquerading as a florist, when they do not have a store front reteail outlet, in other words a service bureau
George Simon
I Suck Cuz I'm Banned
Well, if that is your definition, then this guy is an order gatherer. Somehow his operation does not strike me as an order gathering operation. I have 2 other customers who truly are order gatherers. They advertise nation-wide, have websites from which you can purchase flowers and all their employees are girls answering the phones. They do use the electronic sending capabilities of flowerSoft.Infinite said:
If this guy's operation was like that, he could not possibly give his orders out through the phone.
George Simon
I Suck Cuz I'm Banned
Going by that definition then, 800 Flowers is not an order-gathering operation since they do have store fronts and employ designers, drivers and clerks.phillip said:
George Simon
I Suck Cuz I'm Banned
You see, in my book, the florist I was talking about does not fit the order- gatherer model, but 800 Flowers does. I guess every one has their own opinion as to what an order-gatherer is or is not.phillip said:
In any case, as far as I know, it is not illegal to do order-gathering. I think 800 Flowers actually helps the floral industry because of all the advertising they do. It gets the public to think about buying flowers instead of something else and while they may get most of that business, they do not get it all.
I'm almost sure that 800 Flowers spends more money in advertising than all of the florists in the USA combined. Maybe even if we include FTD and Teleflora.
Just a reminder....
the topic of this conversation started out as "why consumers fear wiring out flowers" and a florist was telling THEIR experience from what they saw delivered from another florist.
We all know that their are some florists that are lacking in the proper skills to be a professional florist and we all know that some of these florists are either TF or FTD and we all know that they are not going to get removed from any wire service for poor proformace. Not paying their bills, YES! TF has a test program and so does FTD. The problem will always be that the WS is NOT going to eliminate any member as long as they can pay their bill.
Florists have continued to talk about poor quality and "shaving" for as long as I have been reading both floral boards. These things are not going to change. And I'm sorry Infinite, you can believe anything you want to when you said, "you will not convince me though, that sending direct provides a better esperience for the customer." One of the largest reasons for customer dissasatisfaction is the item did not appear to be at full value, then the problem does exist. It doesn't matter whether you believe it only happens 10% of the time or 25%, or as many industry people predict, 50% of the time. If no one feels this is a problem within THEIR WS, maybe someone can explain why so many customers are now trying to call direct to the receiving florist. They may not have told you, the sending florist, that they were unhappy with the last arrangement that got sent, but why then would they take additional time out of their busy day to search through the internet and try to find a florist when they have the convenence of dealing with the local florist who has always taken care of them before? They either figure they are going to save money or prefer to talk directly with the florist at the other end to see if they can improve the situation. In other words, they don't know who is at fault and they are just trying to eliminate possibilities as to why Aunt Mary got such a small arrangement last time. For florist like myself to send direct and give the receiving florist an "undiscounted" order is what we are doing to solve this problem within the industry. Paying the receiving florist a fair amount for the work and services does have a postive effect as versus trying to convince them they have to do it for the TEAM!
And gentlemen, there is no doubt that florists like Infinite, BOSS, RC and some of the others that comment on these boards, have put a lot of work into their businesses to produce the number of wire outs they currently handle. I don't know what the actual number is of 4th or 5th generation flower shops in the US and Canada or the number of true flower shops that do the volumn of outgoing that BOSS does, but you are really in the minority these days of the approximate 35,000 florists. The vast majority of flower shops today are first generation and doing an average of less than 75 orders out a MONTH. The industry is changing. If trend continues and florists elect to drop the WS and send orders direct, there will be less florists within the WS system to send to and all the technology in the world won't change that. Just some thoughts to think about.
the topic of this conversation started out as "why consumers fear wiring out flowers" and a florist was telling THEIR experience from what they saw delivered from another florist.
We all know that their are some florists that are lacking in the proper skills to be a professional florist and we all know that some of these florists are either TF or FTD and we all know that they are not going to get removed from any wire service for poor proformace. Not paying their bills, YES! TF has a test program and so does FTD. The problem will always be that the WS is NOT going to eliminate any member as long as they can pay their bill.
Florists have continued to talk about poor quality and "shaving" for as long as I have been reading both floral boards. These things are not going to change. And I'm sorry Infinite, you can believe anything you want to when you said, "you will not convince me though, that sending direct provides a better esperience for the customer." One of the largest reasons for customer dissasatisfaction is the item did not appear to be at full value, then the problem does exist. It doesn't matter whether you believe it only happens 10% of the time or 25%, or as many industry people predict, 50% of the time. If no one feels this is a problem within THEIR WS, maybe someone can explain why so many customers are now trying to call direct to the receiving florist. They may not have told you, the sending florist, that they were unhappy with the last arrangement that got sent, but why then would they take additional time out of their busy day to search through the internet and try to find a florist when they have the convenence of dealing with the local florist who has always taken care of them before? They either figure they are going to save money or prefer to talk directly with the florist at the other end to see if they can improve the situation. In other words, they don't know who is at fault and they are just trying to eliminate possibilities as to why Aunt Mary got such a small arrangement last time. For florist like myself to send direct and give the receiving florist an "undiscounted" order is what we are doing to solve this problem within the industry. Paying the receiving florist a fair amount for the work and services does have a postive effect as versus trying to convince them they have to do it for the TEAM!
And gentlemen, there is no doubt that florists like Infinite, BOSS, RC and some of the others that comment on these boards, have put a lot of work into their businesses to produce the number of wire outs they currently handle. I don't know what the actual number is of 4th or 5th generation flower shops in the US and Canada or the number of true flower shops that do the volumn of outgoing that BOSS does, but you are really in the minority these days of the approximate 35,000 florists. The vast majority of flower shops today are first generation and doing an average of less than 75 orders out a MONTH. The industry is changing. If trend continues and florists elect to drop the WS and send orders direct, there will be less florists within the WS system to send to and all the technology in the world won't change that. Just some thoughts to think about.
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
But George
No Drivers, no Designers, no Stock to me equals NO FLOWERS, do they make floral arrangements?
Or do they only transfer orders, and work off the 20 and rebate like you said?
No Drivers, no Designers, no Stock to me equals NO FLOWERS, do they make floral arrangements?
Or do they only transfer orders, and work off the 20 and rebate like you said?
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
On another note, (perhaps should be a new thread) there are florists too being ripped off daily, with bogus wire orders...and I'm not talking chump change...try several tens of thousands of dollars being called out to unsuspecting florists on direct orders...Griff said:
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
George Simon
I Suck Cuz I'm Banned
No, they don't make arrangements. There are no flowers or plants to be seen anywhere in their office. They work strictly on the 20% and rebates.BOSS said:
The difference, in my eyes, is that they are gathering orders from their customers, not yours. In other words, they are not invading your market or anyone else's.
BOSS said:
Could you explain this one to me, "the bogus wire order and the part of "several tens of thousands of dollars being called out to unsuspecting florists on direct orders".
I cannot figure out how a credit card order which is processed and excepted is ripping off florists?
Awaiting an explantion...or something...
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