WS Member Numbers

[Carrington]

We have serious erosion of wire service numbers over here as well. We used to be given all the directories to cross ref to our central database - the last Interflora one we got was November 05. Following thier decision not to work with us, since then we have stepped up on our our own daily clean up process and phone all returned magazine shops to double check. In addition all new records fed to us from our business database service are phoned, verified and codified as to wire service affiliation, if applicable. I say all that so that you can see there is a strong basis of accuracy for our figueres. In addition we are lucky that florists continue to keep us updated with information from the Wires.

Therefore we believe our stats are 95% accurate and according to our records, if we exclude the ones that are kept on for the 3 - 6 month period while their notice is worked out, we are showing Interflora at circa 1450 - compared to 1825 in Nov 05. Teleflorist is standing at around 1680 (a figure confirmed by their MD) from an all time high of 2,200. The number of shops in the UK has dropped by approximately 2.8%.

Carrie

 

[sfox]

Could It Be

Edit: More I think about it - I really doubt much of this can be attributed to shops going wire service free - I think they're dropping like flies.

Could it be that... "the one's dropping like flies".....are shops that link their businesses to companies like FTD and 800FLOWERS whose corporate agenda is to in fact ruin the very people paying those dues?

 

[Lizi]

And that is exactly why I don't belong to those WS anymore. Because they are ruining the very people who pay those dues. Without regard for those shops helping to build those WS.

 

[bloomz]

Could it be that... "the one's dropping like flies".....are shops that link their businesses to companies like FTD and 800FLOWERS whose corporate agenda is to in fact ruin the very people paying those dues?

Why yes it could be - if you add the caveat "those that can't do math or have business sense."

Again, someone please show me a big successful florist that doesn't have a wire service.

I'm still waiting.

btw - I'm curious why you exclude TF?

Therefore we believe our stats are 95% accurate and according to our records, if we exclude the ones that are kept on for the 3 - 6 month period while their notice is worked out, we are showing Interflora at circa 1450 - compared to 1825 in Nov 05. Teleflorist is standing at around 1680 (a figure confirmed by their MD) from an all time high of 2,200. The number of shops in the UK has dropped by approximately 2.8%.

Carrie

Carrie - are you finding shops out of business or simply out of the wires?

 

[sfox]

why

btw - I'm curious why you exclude TF?

The reason Teleflora is excluded is that you are right on one point. Some florists still do enough sending business to need a wire service. To me Teleflora is the lesser of the 3 evils.

Bloomnet is owned and operated by the Grand-Daddy of all the OG's. This is the company that started all this trouble with wire services. Now this is a company florists should support.

Then there is FTD. This is a corporation that the CEO openly stood up in front of Wall Street and stated clearly that FTD was turning it's back on the florists to concentrate on supermarkets. Now this is the company florists should support.

But if you own a Jaguar and your only choices are the Grand-Daddy of the OG's or the company that openly states that it only wants a florists money, then can you guess why Teleflora is the least objectionable?

BUt I guess when you go on cruises on FTD's dime, they really don't seem so bad?

And as someone once posted................opinions vary, but the truth doesn't

 

[RC in Dayton and Cincinnati]

Again, someone please show me a big successful florist that doesn't have a wire service.

I'm still waiting.

Bloomz, reminds me of this TV ad.

More doctors smoke Camel than any other brand



RC

 

[MANORVILLE]

"BUt I guess when you go on cruises on FTD's dime, they really don't seem so bad? "sfox


Gotta give that one up to him !
Our hard earned bucks certainly helped make that possible !
But, what do I know ?

 

[ivygreen]

Bloomz, reminds me of this TV ad.

More doctors smoke Camel than any other brand



RC

Now that's just funny, and I think he got you on that one!:rofl:

 

[bloomz]

But if you own a Jaguar and your only choices are the Grand-Daddy of the OG's or the company that openly states that it only wants a florists money, then can you guess why Teleflora is the least objectionable?

I'm a Teleflora member Fox and send Teleflora orders. I have as many choices as anyone else has, and perhaps more. Have you ever heard of MAS direct? It's the Ferrari of order transmission systems, and today I was told it now covers 3200 cities. How ya like them applez?

You guys are quite green about the Jaguar, aren't you.....:gossip:

I'm just sayin.....

 

[David]

Have you ever heard of MAS direct? It's the Ferrari of order transmission systems, and today I was told it now covers 3200 cities. How ya like them applez?

I think it's great that MAS has developed this. Could a non MAS shop use it or if not in the future would MAS open it up to a florist with a PC.
When you use it are you still sending the order through FTD?

 

[Carrington]

Carrie - are you finding shops out of business or simply out of the wires?

sorry ... only just seen this.
No we are seeing shops close ... both because of retirement and business failure. Sadly I don't believe it's reached it's peak and that the summer months will be telling for a lot of florists.

Personally I'd like to see around 2,000 go by the wall as that would strengthen it for the rest but unfortunately the ones that are hanging on in there are more often than not FTD shops being propped up by incoming orders while the good, new generation/new thinking ones are struggling.

We saw a lot of FTD florists move in the last 18 months ... many have gone to Teleflora so that they have an electronic system of order transmission while others are just staying independent and phoning orders through but that's not easy given the requirements for tax receipts etc.

Carrie

 

[bloomz]

I think it's great that MAS has developed this. Could a non MAS shop use it or if not in the future would MAS open it up to a florist with a PC.
When you use it are you still sending the order through FTD?

David - I do believe there are plans to open this up to everyone on the drawing board - an idea who's time has come.
For now we can send them either TF or FTD (or BN if you're a member) thru the direct network. stay tuned for more info or call me after the holidays and I'll fill you in with more I know about.

No we are seeing shops close ... both because of retirement and business failure.
Carrie

Thank you - that was my belief and thanks for confirming this - I think this will end up being good news also for the remaining teacious professional shops. Also - thank you for being one that understands what I mean when I talk about shops folding - I think some here think it's heartless of me - it will be good for the industry and as we know, it really isn't good for the industry to be full of hobbiests - it's a serious business that needs serious professionals to keep our image up.

I wish we had numbers in the US for that - maybe SAF would know. I'll call them when I get time.

 

[Oldtimer]

Edit: More I think about it - I really doubt much of this can be attributed to shops going wire service free - I think they're dropping like flies.

Well, just for the record Bloomzie, in 2004 there were slightly over 31,000 total florists in the US. I don't have a count for Canada at that time. I know that this number is correct because at the time I had not only the name of the flower shop but also the address, city and state, zip code, telephone numbers and fax number of every one of them and had them on electronic file.

Now you can speculate all you want to as to where all those florists went, but a portion of them did go independent. I wasn't in that data base in 2004 because I was already away from the WS. Depending on what the numbers are today for Canadian florists, you've had a possible reduction in florists of 6,000 - 8,000 in roughly 4 years and some of those same florists are on these boards today openly confirming that they are WS free. No Bloomzie, they didn't all parrish in the fire. While some feel that it's good for the industry for this purging of florists, someone might want to think about just who is going to fill all your orders in the future. Based on my knowledge of this area in Illinois, all the flower shops I can name that closed in the last 2-3 years didn't fail because they were bad floral designers or didn't buy good product. Most failed because they belonged to multiply WS. They weren't bad florists, but rather silly business people. Mikey also made very good point when he said that the younger generation florist may have already figured out that they don't need the WS to be successful. Their computer knowledge will allow them to communicate much more effectively on the internet to secure local customers than florists of my generation. I sure hope so.

And Cheryl, my dear, my hat's off to you. Five years ago I was one of the very few that talked about sending orders at 100% and was considered a "wacko". However many more now realize that it is the ONLY WAY to get the OG's out of your neigborhood and reward the customer at the same time. This whole industry is at a very tenuous period. It is very much like a house of cards. Continually picking away at the underpinning and telling yourself that your getting rid of the undesirable florists and then everything will be alright isn't the answer. Weaken the entire floral network to a point that it can no longer function and it will most likely bring down the whole house of cards on top of everyone.

One last thing. When Toto was giving us that well needed history lesson, it got me to thinking about all the floral people that I was associated with in the FTD district 5 a & B meetings. Yes, I was very active believer at one time and now I can only think of all those people that retired and closed or sold their shops and all the years and years of experience that just walked away from the industry. I guess some might have even thought of them as undesireable because there were just too many of them too.

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

One last thing. When Toto was giving us that well needed history lesson, it got me to thinking about all the floral people that I was associated with in the FTD district 5 a & B meetings. Yes, I was very active believer at one time and now I can only think of all those people that retired and closed or sold their shops and all the years and years of experience that just walked away from the industry. I guess some might have even thought of them as undesireable because there were just too many of them too.

the single greatest loss of wealth in our industry, was that very exact sentiment that many of us have felt.
Current wire service models are doomed, and they really don't care who goes down with them, and the unfortunate loss of brilliant florist owners, just throwing in the towel, will in history, be regarded as catastrophic, as the moral fabric unravels.

 

[bloomz]

Well, just for the record Bloomzie, in 2004 there were slightly over 31,000 total florists in the US. I don't have a count for Canada at that time. I know that this number is correct because at the time I had not only the name of the flower shop but also the address, city and state, zip code, telephone numbers and fax number of every one of them and had them on electronic file.

Now you can speculate all you want to as to where all those florists went, but a portion of them did go independent. I wasn't in that data base in 2004 because I was already away from the WS. Depending on what the numbers are today for Canadian florists, you've had a possible reduction in florists of 6,000 - 8,000 in roughly 4 years and some of those same florists are on these boards today openly confirming that they are WS free. No Bloomzie, they didn't all parrish in the fire.

I think Carrie went a ways toward confirming my suspicions. She also mentioned that a lot of the new generation new thinking ones are struggling. She has an excellent knowlege of florists in her part of the world.

Oldtimer - I'm gonna shoot a guess from the hip here.

There's about 3000 members here if I am not mistaken.

I bet there isn't 50 of them on here that are truly "wire service" free. Heck make that 25. It might well even be 10.

It just seems like it because it has become like a religion to some of them, and they are more vocal.

Nothing wrong with that. Several of them I highly respect.

Some of the haters up in here still belong to a wire service (can you spell Sfox?)

I highly respect him too on a business level (not politics, but that's just a sillyass game for me anyway) I think they too are using ws's like the biatchez they are, just like I do on my level.

Even my friend Toto still belongs to a wire service (yes I consider IFA another ws just with a slightly different slant - they kinda figured out a rather unique way to be part time sfo's - send and not worry about receiving.)

This country (and the UK) is losing florists in droves. After the holiday I'm hoping SAF has some real numbers I can glean. The portion of them that went independent is, I'm betting, a VERY tiny portion.

I think shops fail generally because they aren't very good business people, and overpaying for ws membership is on of the aspects of that, but only one.

No I'm not worried about it at all - there will always be a need for high quality professional florists.

opinions vary

blessings

 

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer - I'm gonna shoot a guess from the hip here.

There's about 3000 members here if I am not mistaken.

I bet there isn't 50 of them on here that are truly "wire service" free. Heck make that 25. It might well even be 10.



blessings

I guess it depends on how you look at those numbers, Bloomzie If you believe that at least 25% of the individual membership numbers are single membership only then 75% is dual membership. Add 25% of FTD and TF and you'll be short about 5,000-6,000 members from my number on 2004. Remember I didn't have any Canadian florists in my number. My list would have been at least 34,000 with our Northern friends added.

If you believe that single membership is greater than 25%, then the loss of florists is even larger. If you believe that single membership is smaller than 25%, then roughly 80% or more of florists today belong to multiple WS. Now how do you want to sort out the smart from the dumb???

And as for how many are independent, once they leave the WS they fall off the radar. You know about TOTO because he's on this board. But none us can tell how many there really are anymore. That's another sad fact. And unfortuniately not ALL florists read flowerchat so we can't judge the real number of independents merely by the number on this board.

 

[sfox]

Please

Some of the haters up in here still belong to a wire service (can you spell Sfox?)

I highly respect him too on a business level (not politics, but that's just a sillyass game for me anyway) I think they too are using ws's like the biatchez they are, just like I do on my level.

Even my friend Toto still belongs to a wire service (yes I consider IFA another ws just with a slightly different slant - they kinda figured out a rather unique way to be part time sfo's - send and not worry about receiving.)


opinions vary

blessings

It's no wonder your outlook on issues are so slanted, you must have a reading comprehension problem.

Your status with FTD is due to the fact that you are private florist that has figured out to be a OG. You send ton's of orders out each year. Nothing wrong with that.

So when you post on this board, the views you espouse are those of a OG. You need florists to fill your orders. The less problems you have, the more money you make. Nothing wrong with that.

But to post views that try to make FTD seem like they are working for the best interests of florists and the floral industry is pure nonsense. FTD is working for FTD. They as a corporation have worked very hard to extract as much money as possible from florists to fatten their balance sheets. They have taken the wire business from being a fairly equal financial arrangement among florists and made it a money losing proposition for most.

FTD and it's OG's partners are now hitting a brick wall trying to get their orders filled. They are feeling the backlash that florists are imposing on the system due to the lack of financial gain to be made from their orders. So their response is to further penalize the florist. Now granted some florists are pure bad, but I can guarantee you that many good florists will get hit with the new fees because of many various situations beyond their control.

And for you to say that FTD is working for the good of the industry is pure bullsh!t. And for you to make comments that I hate wire services, is again another signal that you don't comprend the situation. I hate any company working against the retail florist.

We all know that ...opinions vary..... and it always help to understand the person whose opinion vary.

 

[BOSS]

This just in... not sure these numbers are exactly correct...but...

Word on the street...

Bloomnet membership is at about 6400 according to the latest directory...with 200+ new members in the last 3 months and 2640 drop outs in the same time frame? Seems like a lot to me, but...could be...

 

[Lizi]

Well, we'll just have to see how long those new members last. I think from what I am hearing, they last about 9 months to 1 year and then they are ready to get out.

I now lots of florist that are being contacted by 1800 and they are begging them to join. They are getting a lot of NO'S for now.

 

[inferno63]

I am one of the 1800 dropouts from the last directory. My sales are flat and summer has been tough but I am hanging tough. After looking at the numbers FTD and Bloom were in last summer's sales and not in this summer's sales. So flat without them, I will take. I did it by myself without their fees which increased the bottom line. I am optimistic about the future without them.