Announcement Change Is Here!

[Seasonals]

I was on Flower Chat long before we expanded our gift/gourmet shop to include a full flower shop. Before Flower Chat I was on the other one too. Don't remember the name but all you old timers will remember the blue screen, blue words....it was quite the forum. Anyway I knew I needed the knowledge of professionals in the field in order to make our expansion work. Having garnered much knowledge over the these years from the forums and attending classes, I'm pleased to say that our shop is doing well. I have inpart the commaradarie of trade professionals to thank for that.

Actually I'm a little surprised that a paid membership has been this long coming. I belong to a paid membership gift forum and have nothing but good to say about it. In the last year or two I have seen where members were going to lose their membership because they couldn't afford to continue paying due to the economy in their areas. Others have quitely paid for them so they could stay and garner the benefits from the experience of belonging. Just like everything, take a close look at the benefits you derive from this forum, weigh it with the cost and do what you need to do, but don't cut your bottom line short. I know I have received information from this forum that has more than paid for my annual membership.

For those of you who do not own a shop and would be paying on your own, I would think the membership would be a business deduction on your taxes. I would hate to lose some of you because you don't own a shop.

I'm looking forward to Flower Chat being an even better partner in 2010.

 

[Sher]

I did some rough math and appreciate all of the time that has gone into maintaining FC...over the years I have contributed without being asked...actually I encouraged Ryan to create a donation button. The question that jumps out to me is...what does my 100 bucks contribute to. Is it income for Ryan...is it a source for expanding Strider...is it going to be used to promote real florists like we have talked about for freakin years. Adding up the potential members, my figures show this could be well over 200 grand...and then some as FC grows.I ask how my money will be used as I am trimming like a wild woman like many of you and will have to sacrifice something in order to drop 100 bucks so other than having the chat and picking up some tidbits ..and at over 200 grand, it is a expensive chat forum...how will the money be used. Please dont be offended, I just need to make some decisions and I want to make sure my money is really going to benefit me in the industry as a whole...if I chose not to spend the money, I sure will miss all that doggone casino cash I finally earned by blogging about the FC and coming in second...
Sher

 

[CHR]

Food for Thought

When I first heard about the new FC model, my main concern was that we'd lose members due to the minimal subscription fee... and I really thought long and hard about it...

1) I will be very glad to see the intro threads go away. V, especially, has devoted countless hours to try and help vet new members. Her time, and everyone else's for that matter, could be better spent. Feelings have been hurt by some of the frank queries in those threads and some very, very fine florists have been so turned off that they've never returned.

2) We have a significant number of members who read here regularly but never post or share their own ideas and experiences. They use the resources, take the ideas of others, but never give back to the community. A subscription model will at least get them to assess the real value of this forum, the galleries, directory and blogs.

3) Ryan has borne the expense of FC since the start. Server, upgrades, software and loads of time in just the tech portion to try and provide a rich opportunity for florists to share and grow. (Do you have any idea how many florists don't know the difference between their email address and their website address)? I know some members have donated of their own free will, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule.

4) The $100 subscription cost is incredibly low compared to any other professionally-based site I know. I'm a member at Search Engine Land, hardly use the private resources (expect the daily news posts *which are terrific*) but feel my annual membership of $150/year is as a 'vote' from the peanut gallery for their continued success. I've learned WAY more from it than I can every repay. I feel the same about FC.

 

[CHERYL BAKIN]

Question:

If someone chooses not to join the new FC, and pay the annual fee, what happens to all the posts that person has made over their previous membership time? Are they deleted? Are they accessible for future reference?

There has been, over the last 4 years that I have been on here, a great exchange of ideas, and information given willingly. Who now will become the owner of this information, if this forum is no longer free?

This isthe intellectual property......of the poster(s) that created it.

Cheryl

Cher:
while I appreciate the information you have shared about the decision of Ryan to charge for this board, niether you nor Ryan nor Mark have answer the very basic question I posted a while ago....re-quoted for your referral.

You also have not answered Sher's basic question as to what the funds will be used for.

Since this forum sharted out as a free forum, and the MEMBERS have provided the content, I think we need answers to these two basic questions before many of us can decide to stay or refrain from joining here after 1-31-10. Not trying to get confrontational -- just trying to get complete answers to make thoughtful and wise decisions as they relate to me and my business.

I thank V for all the time and effort she puts into this forum. Charging "admission" means that the forum will change. The terms of use/service need to be very clearly spelled out, (which Tracey stated), and I cannot find those anywhere here, either.


thank you.
Cheryl

 

[BOSS]

Allow me the grace of tomorrow, my phones dying...

Night all.

 

[CHR]

Cher:
while I appreciate the information you have shared about the decision of Ryan to charge for this board, niether you nor Ryan nor Mark have answer the very basic question I posted a while ago....re-quoted for your referral.

I assume you directed this to me.? I honestly don't know so Ryan will have to answer this one. In general, most BBs have TOU where the posts become property of the forum.

You also have not answered Sher's basic question as to what the funds will be used for.

I think Ryan layed that out in his first post when he said:

Premium Content
We are not taking this situation lightly. Asking members to adopt a paid subscription model means that we need to renew efforts at providing value. In addition to the improved community experience, we have arranged to begin providing unique content from respected sources. Beginning later this month we will be presenting practical advice articles from Jennifer Laycock (editor of Search Engine Guide and noted Social Media consultant), noted sales trainer Tim Huckabee (Floral Strategies) and award winning floral designer and educator Phil Rulloda. Additional authors will be added throughout the coming months.

and

More Love
This also means Strider will be able to invest more time and resources in FlowerChat. What started as a whim has grown into a costly and time-consuming – yet infinitely rewarding – project. I am constantly amazed each time we have FC offline even for a few minutes at the number of emails and messages I receive asking when FC will return. Just as FlowerChat has become a part of the daily routine for many of you, the operation of FC has become a major part of our day. While a labour of love, we are also a business that has to balance our resources. Paid memberships will mean a more reliable revenue stream which in turn justifies more investment of time and resources on our part to make the FC experience even better and to recruit more florists to FlowerChat.

and

A Voice For Florists
FlowerChat needs to evolve into a voice for florists delivering a clear message that buying flowers is a good choice. We are not looking to replace SAF or Flowers Canada, as both organizations fill vital roles in research, monitoring and influencing political policy and assisting members. Our goals will be defined in the areas of marketing florists to consumers, and assisting florists in improving their businesses.

In addition to authoring content for FlowerChat.com, Jennifer Laycock will also be involved in shaping the social media plans and policies for the new marketing initiatives.

What can be accomplished will be a direct result of the support funds available to accomplish it.

 

[roysecityfloristand gifts]

I think there are big changing coming in this industry and Ryan, Cathy, Mark and others are in a positon to know things that I could not without FC.

If a person has never built a website for example, they cannot have any idea how much work, time and money Ryan has invested into this Forum.
Yes, he's sold his websites to members, but to people who would or could not have done their own. Using his unique insite to create better sites than others could have offered.

The tone of the discussions in the last six months, scream change and for the good (more florist getting out of WS's and doing it for themselves!).
I am hoping that the admins. have been looking at ways to unite florist to fight the drain on our industry. I look forward to hearing their ideas for real change.

I'm really surprised at the members who are suggesting they may not come along for the ride, and frankly at the ones who didn't hesitate. That has been very telling.

I will gladly pay the membership fee, just to see what is coming. If nothing new comes then I will not renew. It's very simple.

 

[theRKF]

(condensed for brevity)
If someone chooses not to join the new FC, and pay the annual fee, what happens to all the posts that person has made over their previous membership time? Are they deleted? Are they accessible for future reference? Who now will become the owner of this information, if this forum is no longer free?

Cheryl,

You ask a good question - and the answer is no different than what applies to every other social content site on the web, from Google Maps to Rip Off Report to the millions of social networking sites: Once you post and publish your content on someone else's forum, you give up some rights to control it. We don't delete information posted on FlowerChat, except in very rare circumstances of obscenity and spam.

As with any other person who has left the site (voluntarily or not), the content will remain.

ryan,
can you tell me how specifically the money charged will be used? and will $100 memberships be able to read posts by $500 memberships et al?

I did some rough math and appreciate all of the time that has gone into maintaining FC...over the years I have contributed without being asked...actually I encouraged Ryan to create a donation button. The question that jumps out to me is...what does my 100 bucks contribute to. Is it income for Ryan...is it a source for expanding Strider...is it going to be used to promote real florists like we have talked about for freakin years. Adding up the potential members, my figures show this could be well over 200 grand...and then some as FC grows.I ask how my money will be used as I am trimming like a wild woman like many of you and will have to sacrifice something in order to drop 100 bucks so other than having the chat and picking up some tidbits ..and at over 200 grand, it is a expensive chat forum...how will the money be used. Please dont be offended, I just need to make some decisions and I want to make sure my money is really going to benefit me in the industry as a whole...if I chose not to spend the money, I sure will miss all that doggone casino cash I finally earned by blogging about the FC and coming in second...
Sher

I've grouped Sher & Sharon to answer both:

Sher - I love your math!! Empress, if your scenario comes true, it will open a world of possibilities.

I'm hearing a lot about how florists are tightening belts, and I want you to understand that you're not alone in this. I agonized over the decision to start FC because Janis & I didn't have the $100 for the software (price was lower back then), let alone domain and hosting.

In your businesses, if a division isn't producing revenue you can: 1) keep it as a loss leader or labour of love; 2) improve its contribution; 3) cut it lose. Many of you are going through those stages now - as are we. Strider is a growing firm with increasing demands on our time and resources. We can no longer subsidize the operation of FlowerChat as it existed until this morning. The revenue that we have brought in from donations and advertising over the past 12 months doesn't even cover our server costs, let alone the hours we put into the site each week.

I refuse to let FC die off, and we can't keep it as is, so we are left with the option of making FC start to carry its own weight. It is without shame that I acknowledge that some of the revenue will be that - revenue for Strider. We're a business and have to act like one. I also intend to cobble together as many florists as will come along for the ride and see what we can do get your phones ringing again, to get customers to shop direct, and to get more people buying flowers.

As Cathy so rightly said, what we can do depends on how many florists are willing to transition from complaining about wire services and grocery stores and take some reasonable, sustained and thought-out action together.

Anticipating a reasonable number of FC members opting to join with us, we have initiated a new project that will involve re-investing a significant amount of this FC revenue into a new marketing project. The phases of this project are mapped out, and things are coming together. More can be discussed privately or in a forum that's not open to public viewing, but here's how it shakes down for now:

1. FlowerChat Paid Membership: What we have now is immensely valuable to florists, and we've committed to support our subscribers with additional Premium Content
2. Reinvesting revenue in a new project
3. New project will have a subscription fee, either for entry or upgrade (undecided)

Our local FTD Conference (before they cancelled it) was about $350 / person, plus $150 / night hotel and some meals, travel, etc. For that you got some networking once a year, 3-4 speakers for 45 min each (usually business, internet, tech) and a design show. For $100 at FlowerChat you're getting monthly content from Jennifer Laycock (not the inhouse IT guy from a WS), design ideas from Phil Rulloda (anyone heard of him?), and sales advice from Tim Huckabee. And year-round networking. And lots more.

To be clear: the subscription fee is for your access to FC, but some of it will be invested in our next project which will be a for-profit project aimed at filling a great need.

Having revenue from FC means we can justify more time and resources - programming, development, management. One example is the new Live Help button that appears in a few key areas of the site to assist people learning their way around FC.

And while that question is out there, maybe you could tell me about guest browsing.

Aren't threads in the news and announcements section open to the public? :dunno: I think that's why guests are able to read this thread.

They can also view the photo gallery, the florists' directory and public blog posts.

The question of who can access what on FlowerChat is raised frequently. The best way to see for yourself is to log out and see what areas of the site you can access. (A few relevant forums, and public-facing content like the gallery and blogs.)

Newly registered members will have a window of opportunity to browse some forums before having to subscribe, at which point they will be able to post.

Cher:
I thank V for all the time and effort she puts into this forum. Charging "admission" means that the forum will change. The terms of use/service need to be very clearly spelled out, (which Tracey stated), and I cannot find those anywhere here, either.

The TOS have been re-written, and are currently available on the registration page. I will be adding them to a dedicated page in the near future, but haven't had the hours yet. (FTR: I'm running on 3 hours sleep, with about 16 of the last 24 hours spent here working on FC and 4-5 hours spent at my Dad's birthday party - which is why I didn't answer your question immediately.)

What can be accomplished will be a direct result of the support funds available to accomplish it.

Truly, I can't say it better. FlowerChat will be our resource for educating and uniting florists. The new project will be our voice to the consumers. What we say and how we say it is up to the florists. For years we've been hearing and reading the calls to unite, to take action, to have a voice - the time is here, and you won't find a better time than now.

Personally, I've already committed thousands of my own dollars to a new project anticipating that the florists are ready to get behind something not governed by conflicting motives. I've put my money where my mouth is, called on favours and friends, and I'm going out on a limb thinking that our members here are ready for a change.

The ball is now in your court, FC people. Who's with me?

 

[aileen_c]

After reading this thread, I would like to suggest a wonderful book to everyone. I am sure some here may have already read it. It's called The Energy Bus by Jon Gordon.

Looks to me, Ryan, like you've got yourself an Energy Bus sort of situation here. :thumbsup

 

[goldfish]

The ball is now in your court, FC people. Who's with me?

I'm sitting on the fence. There are a couple of things that do bother me.

1) Value of a forum
... is pretty much wholly created by the members who contribute the ideas, information, and opinions. The forum owner (in this case you) and admins provide the means that make that happen, but otherwise do not create the content. Content, which is the sole basis for why FC has been valuable to many, has been created by the contributing members, who are now being asked to pay.

This bothers me, because a countless number of posters (past and present) have volunteered our ideas, tips, opinions to make FC to become a valuable source. Yes, many of us have done it partly to gratify our ego, but it is also true that many of us actually wanted to be helpful. I know that many may not agree with what I write, but still, I believe my opinions have forced them to re-evaluate their own beliefs, which is a good thing.

Thing is, I didn't do it to profit from it myself, nor expected someone else to make money on the tips and ideas that I or others provide.

2) Intellectual property
As Cheryl asked earlier, I wonder who owns the copyright of the posts published in a forum. This question is not just academic, because with a paid membership, Strider will be "selling" the aggregate value of these posts that have been and will be created by members.

I have done a little search on this question, and my tentative conclusion is that original posters are implicit copyright owners. By posting in a forum, however, s/he grants the forum owner a license to publish, edit, delete them. What is not clear is if the forum owner can profit from these materials.

3) Expenses
I understand that there is an expense involved in hosting a forum. What I do not understand is $100/yr/person. With possible 2-3,000 paid subscribers, you would be raising a few hundred thousand dollars. I don't believe that Strider has been absorbing this much every year.

It wouldn't have bothered me, if the fee was a few dollars a year per subscriber. That would raise perhaps as much as several thousands a year, sufficient to pay for hosting (actual cost without profit) as well as aspirins and pack of beers for each moderator. Yes, you and admins would still have to work for free, but contributors too are working for free also.

4) Projects
The point #3 above brings up another issue: what are you going to do with the money raised? One way of looking at this paid structure is that members are being asked to invest money on your projects, the details of which are not clear to me.

-----

I just wanted to be candid as always.

 

[BOSS]

Ryan has pretty much covered all the questions, so...

3) Expenses
I understand that there is an expense involved in hosting a forum. What I do not understand is $100/yr/person. With possible 2-3,000 paid subscribers, you would be raising a few hundred thousand dollars. I don't believe that Strider has been absorbing this much every year.

It wouldn't have bothered me, if the fee was a few dollars a year per subscriber. That would raise perhaps as much as several thousands a year, sufficient to pay for hosting (actual cost without profit)

Mark<<< Removing my Admin hat for a minute...This is MY personal opinion, and in no way has anything to do with Ryan, other Admins.

I wonder how many would pony up the funds having just come across FlowerChat for the first time, and it was already a subscription based forum. If another florist recommended you check it out and suggested you join, without bemoaning the cost. Taking on faith, that the forum had the best interest of your industry in mind, and that those in charge sincerely wish to move people forward, help them survive, grow and continue. How many?

I understand everyone's concerns, questions and comments. That always happens when there is change, especially big change.

Goldfish, what if it ends up being 10,000 members? Hmmm... what then? A million dollars a year? What then? If the forum generates enough money to publish national advertisements in industry publications 10,000 is a real possibility. Then will there be complaints that FC is making too much money? What if at that point, FC can offer an order transfer platform independent of the industries current offerings? What if we can host a National Convention? Rose Parade float?

I guess this all boils down to whether or not you believe in the future of FlowerChat or not, the future of the retail floral industry or not, and if you want to be part of the future, influence it's direction and help to build the"next new model", or not. We all know, what's happening in the industry right now is not working for many, it's time for change, and only the florists can change it for the better.

BOSS<<< Admin hat back on.

 

[Mark Anderson]

I need to start by saying that I consider Ryan a friend and admitting that could color my opinion on things.

I admire a lot of things about Ryan. One of them is that I find him to be honest and very (sometimes almost disconcertingly) straightforward. In this case he has come right out and said that there is a profit motive. Unlike some other service vendors who have attempted to masquerade as non-profit associations Ryan has publicly stated that FlowerChat is a private enterprise that is in business to make a profit. In my opinion that means certain questions are no longer relevant/appropriate.

For example: I don't think it's appropriate to speculate on potential revenue. It's easy and it's fun but it can also create resentment - especially when so many people in this business are struggling. One of the stated aims of the move is to thin out the number of members so I'm not sure it's fair to make a very optimistic guess at potential paid membership/revenue - especially without knowledge of the costs.

This is not a perfect analogy but please think ahead to Valentines Day. You will look around your store and see nothing but risk and expense - the expensive product you have gambled on, the time and energy you have put into preparing it, the replacements you may have to deal with, etc. You are hoping that you might be able to make a little money.

Your customers see something completely different. They see prices much higher than they paid a week ago. They see people lined up out the door. They see you ringing up sale after sale. Many of them see what they feel is gouging. It's completely inaccurate but - based on their incomplete understanding - it is what many of them see.

Some of them may question it. Some of them may resent it, possibly enough that they decide to go somewhere else and buy chocolates instead. That is their prerogative. But it would not be appropriate for someone in your store to ask your other customers to join them in speculating about how much money you were making and expect you to respond.

Also - I don't think it's appropriate to ask where the money will go. Ryan has stated that some of the money will be used to enhance and add value to the service he is selling. Some of it will hopefully be profit. He shouldn't be expected to explain how much goes where or how it will be used.

This is just like your store. Some revenue goes towards improving your operation in ways the customer will appreciate. Some of it hopefully becomes profit. How would you respond to a customer asking you to explain exactly how their money will be used before they make a purchase? Their purchasing decision should be based almost entirely on the value that you are providing at that time.

Just like your customers you should base your purchasing decision based on the service and value that FlowerChat provides today. If you like what you get now then I hope you would consider going on a monthly subscription. If you continue to like FlowerChat and the way it evolves then continue your membership. If you don't then you can vote with your wallet and stop supporting it. Once again this is like your shop - if you stopped making improvements to your store customers would eventually stop purchasing. (I don't think it's been discussed but the new structure actually gives members more power than they had before).

As a friend I hope FlowerChat comes to generate a lot of profit for Ryan. I doubt that it will ever become a cash cow but - if that happens - it would be a good thing for the members because it would mean that FlowerChat offers a great service that a lot of florists appreciate.

Thanks.


P.S. People keep using the $100/year figure and it can seem daunting. IMHO it is much easier to appreciate the value if you look at it as costing less then $9 per month. $100 is significant but you'll be enjoying FlowerChat for a full year.

 

[goldfish]

This is just like your store. Some revenue goes towards improving your operation in ways the customer will appreciate.

Here's the big difference between my and your understanding, Mark.

I consider a forum owner to be the landlord, not the store owner. What's in the store is not made by the landlord. They are made by the contributing members.

Does a landlord has to be paid? Yes. Do controbuting members have to pay? Only to the extent to cover the cost of the landlord. That's my stance here.

Many forums I know charge a fee, but only like a few bucks a year. $100 is a lot to pay to the lanlord.

 

[Victoria]

I find this interesting

There are no Active Topics since Last visit on Yesterday at 8:18pm to display

That certainly isn't the case with this board.

V

 

[steve]

Mark I believe you left out one important belief? Do you believe in your own floral future??

 

[BOSS]

Mark I believe you left out one important belief? Do you believe in your own floral future??

Yes Steve I do!

I've been doing this a long time. I have seen bad economies come and go, I have seen my 10,000 outbound orders a year cut to 1500 and at the same time seen my NET improve. I have seen the industry morph into something unimaginable even 10 years ago and I want to be part of the solution for the generations that follow. The retail flower business will never go away, and it will improve, especially if florists stop assisting the very companies doing the most damage today.

I know one thing Steve, I will not be on the design bench next Christmas, the good Lord shared that with me December 22nd at about 7:45pm, but I will always be in the flower business, I have a daughter in training and base all my decisions on her future.

 

[pfmflowermarket]

Good Morning...how's everyone feeling today? I've had a chance to sleep on this and read the posts since I last visited and am still on the fence more than ever now.

 

[Victoria]

The decision is yours to make. Either you find Flowerchat a useful and informative tool or you don't.

V

 

[Mark Anderson]

Here's the big difference between my and your understanding, Mark.

I consider a forum owner to be the landlord, not the store owner. What's in the store is not made by the landlord. They are made by the contributing members.

Does a landlord has to be paid? Yes. Do controbuting members have to pay? Only to the extent to cover the cost of the landlord. That's my stance here.

Many forums I know charge a fee, but only like a few bucks a year. $100 is a lot to pay to the lanlord.

Hey Goldfish,

Using your analogy I still think the landlord is providing a lot of value. They are providing a forum for the exchange of ideas - a good forum that is civil, kept free from spam, etc. As far as I know this board is the biggest of it's kind so there must be some kind of merit.

And, again, there is no true understanding of the costs. We can all guess but nobody knows. The one thing I do think is certain is that we would all under-estimate those costs.

I don't know how much time Ryan spends tending to FlowerChat but it is a lot. And - as a well-regarded SEO specialist - that represents a significant opportunity cost. And he currently pays Jim to work on FlowerChat - that is an out-of-pocket expense - just like hardware, software and hosting.

But it's not my place to say what constitutes good value for anyone - that is up to each individual member. If you think it's high that is absolutely valid. I'm certainly not saying you are wrong - just that I don't think it's appropriate to expect the owner of a private company to provide full disclosure and offer their product at what we guess to be their cost.

And again - I don't think it is practical to consider it in terms of a one time annual payment. If wire services charged all of their fixed monthly fees on an annual basis they would lose a lot of members - even the ones that are currently champions. It is hard to conceptualize paying now for something that you will still be using at no additional cost 364 days from now. If you consider it as less than $9 a month or 30 cents a days it is - IMHO - far easier to justify.

 

[Sher]

I dont think anyone doubts the usefulness of the forum...I have been here for several years and have contributed as well as benefitted from many of the posts. I think what is a puzzle is that the $ 100 is only the begininig...that "investment" will allow me to come here, play, post, read......then if I am reading this correctly, there will be additional charges for "other" projects...there does not seem to be an end to me being charged...all the while continuing to contribute to the success of the forum...or am I reading this incorrectly? So I contribute and then get to pay to do so...I really am not being sarcastic...it just is making me think I might not understand what is happening...
Much of the "value" of his forum is and has been earned by the posters that started at the beginning and who have joined along the way...it is ironic that now I must pay to be a member of something I have in a small way helped build...I think that and not having a breakdown of where monies will be spent has raised some questions...and yes, I can ask becasue if I pay, I am then a member, and I do have a right to ask where my monies will be going and what they will be supporting....what if Ryan was using it to promote something that went against my basic beliefs...that is far fetched but that is why I ask...what are my bucks going to be supporting...
I have said it before and will say it again...this is Ryans board...yes he can do as he pleases...it is a platform for him to sell Strider websites..he can do that as well.......he can charge whatever he wishes...yes he can...I can also ask what I get in return and where is my money going to be spent....