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ONLY EVER about REAL FLORISTS MIKEY!

Not sure what your point was, but in my book, it's ONLY EVER about REAL FLORISTS MIKEY!

Over the years, I think you know exactely where I've always been coming from.

All of the rest (in our industry) are merely COAT TAILORS along for our ride, albeit on the backs of many small mom and pop shops.

Call it a MONKEY ON OUR BACKS if you will.

Lastly, I don't need, nor can I afford, a WS to have my out of town orders filled anymore.

Rather than run my orders through THE WS WRINGERS anymore, I'm more than happy to give the filler florists in my network 80% net from my dollars rather than have them work for 70% net through the WS wringer Wampum smoke and mirror net surface dollars.

As to making a NICKEL on the filling side? NAW, I'LL PASS!

Last time I ran the numbers on EXCEL, and based on a true net net to filler of 54% when they've added in their annual dues and fees and turned that into an additional per incoming order acquisition cost, they lost (-21%) on every order they filled.

That was based on a 30% COGS (cost of goods), a 25% COL (cost of labor) and a 20% COD (cost of delivery) for a total cost per order of 75%.

Lastly, I will also pass on going into the closet with BLOOMZ!

Ever since he's been on that VICODIN after the bike accident, I just don't trust him!
 
I thought Bloomz seemed extra rowdy yesterday... TOTO is that true a bike accident?:wide:

If so, I sympathize and by gones are by gones.

Everyone have a safe and happy July 4th.
 
Erlene said:
Tom, I disagree, we're not missing the point. A shop either belongs, or not, as they see fit and what works with their business model.

If one belongs begrudgingly, then one should seriously consider dropping the service entirely. Just like florists have had to evolve their businesses, wire services have as well. The wire service model of today is where it is at, it won't be going back.

We're a bare bones member most of the time, and honestly, we're happy being a member of a wire service. There may be things I don't agree with, however, I still chose to remain a member.

I have a hard time understanding why something that is a relatively small part of most flower shop businesses gets the lions share of a florist's attention. And yes, I know there are those that disagree with me. And that's ok too.

Cathy, great list of reasons for belonging.
Click to expand...

My "missing the point" was not clearly stated. Maybe this will clarify. It is my opinion that the wire service was initially formed as being a benefit to the consumer first, then a benefit to the florist because it increased sales. When the consumer becomes secondary and the organization becomes primary, the "point is being missed."

When any entity forgets what it was initially form for/about, it takes on a life of its own and its own needs become primary. Not good.

Now the wire service's first purpose is to serve the wire service [NOT THE CONSUMER or FLORIST MEMBER] and it is being done at the expense of the filling florist and in cases where the consumer is redirected to something other than flowers [teddy bears] or Direct Shippers, the consumer may end up being compromised..

An analogy might be made to religion. How? Some members feel their needs are not being met, so they leave their original church and form a new denomination that meets their needs. Then the church membership grows and soon they have to build a building and then the church needs to meet the needs of the system.

It would be very simple to "fix" the concept of florists exchanging orders. Have a "non-profit" clearing house, remove the 80/20 split, outlaw rebates, establish a sliding dues scale, have an advertising program and a membership fee that covers the costs. Tom Carlson

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE [FREEDOM] DAY
 
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Tom...Can you get that done by Monday???? I'd be onboard!
I'm doing 90/10 splits now that I'm WS free. That usually give me from 5.00 to 8.00 for forwarding the order. But your idea would work too, if we just would do it.

Have a great holiday!
 
Mikey the Flower Guy said:
With ALL due respect, I will NOT allow this thread to "degenerate" into a pro/anti wire service war.....
For the record, I AM a wire service member, and I DO make money on BOTH incoming and outgoing orders, and I WILL continue to be a member so long as even a NICKEL is to be made to MY benefit!!

For those, that this "equation" does NOT work, NEED to move on, and NOT continue this insane "debate", and for THOSE that HAVE left the wire services, guess what, REAL FLORISTS will STILL service YOUR clients, whether OR not, they are wire service shops.

I am PERSONALLY insulted by these unnecessary diatribes of some imaginary war game that benefits ONLY the winner...we ALL have something to lose, if this path continues, and SHAME on ANY of you, who even remotely think your "opinion" will alter the course of ANY particular florist shop owner/operator.
IF you DON'T like the answers your getting, DON'T keep asking the SAME questions such as "my side" or "your side" unless you're getting up out of a seat in the bus, for an elderly person, OR climbing INTO the closet with Bloomz
Click to expand...

Thank you Mikey! :bouncy:
 
inferno63 said:
And.....

If there are fillers out there making huge money, please sound off. I want to know who you are and how you do it. Enlighten me!
Click to expand...



I made enough money filling for 800-flowers at Mother's day to carry my shop through the slow summer......
 
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Benefits: easy order sending, website that does itself If I don't have time, POS sysytem that cost me nothing upfront and TF gave me credit for, garauntee of payment for orders filled, unbiased middle man when a sender screws up my order, international sending, marketing materials to make nice porfessional looking ads(should I choose)...

Cons: deceptive fillers and senders, fees that go up daily, a quality department that is kind of bogus or at least doesn't work too well, reciprocity fees to force you to be with only one service, sucky customer service(always getting the run around)

I am a bigger filler than a sender...

I maybe send 10-20 orders a month....

My strategy was for TF to pay for my website and pos system for the most part(I expected to pay them a check on some months) and for 800-flowers to help me through building my local business.

I knew I was buying a struggling business. I knew I did not have enough business to fill my days. I knew I could grow business. I knew I needed a website and a pos(because you ain't sheet with out either). I knew I am a sucky photographer and not that great with the know how on websites and technology and photoshop..

I also knew that I had enough friends in the biz with TF shops that I could get enough WI orders to mostly pay for website and POS. I don't care if I personnally make a dime from TF as long as that service mostly pays for my tech needs...

I also knew how to play the 800 game and I could eventually get enough orders to move my flowers and reach out to some local people...Many shops just send out free arrangements to random people in the begining to move flowers that have just sat for a few days, I chose to get paid .50 on every dollar to do it...Smarter than your average bear(maybe)..


I don't make my full dollars on any WI order, but you rarely every make full dollars on anything with benefits....People who work contracts get way better money than actual employees of the same company because they are not getting the benefits that the employee gets. The fact of the matter is that if you do not belong to a WS the fees won't be there, but also the extra business won't be there. You cannot say well I can do this with the money I save from being in a WS, because you also sacrifice the income with the very WS you are cutting off. So the money I give to the WS I would have to count in how much it would cost me to purchase the equipment and software for POS, the time and expense of a website also figure in if my sucky photo products would sell and if I would decrease my orders, figure out how many dollars worth of flowers I would throw away, figure how little variety in flowers I would have. I am sure I could operate my flower shop just fine without the WS, but I would operate as a very small, tiny florist.

Operating with a WS. I operate as a bigger small florist, I give the feeling of a bigger more successful business which gives people the confidence to shop with me. That couple with my knowledge and expertise in my field helps build business...I have customers that are primarily phone customers that had no idea I was a 1 man operation until they came to my shop and saw how small and me just waiting for them to walk through the door...
Even my awning screams of a bigger shop with my worldwide delivery front a center...

I have 6 other competing shops in a 5 mile radius.. well now 5 because one closed. The one that closed was WS free, she was so slow that she started closing early everyday became undependable and finally gave up because her rent was costing her money everymonth, nevermind her phone and electric..She envys my shop because she thinks I am super busy and making millions, that is OK with me that is the vision I want people to see. Another shop is WS free, It works for him, I guess..he's been around for 12 years, still struggles at times, had to subdivide his shop to help with rent, but still runs a nice gift and flower shop...I never see his stuff at any funeral homes or the hospital but he must be selling something....there's another FTD shop, she just recently had a baby and gave up being at the shop and hired a manager, I have gotten 3 of her weekly accounts because "things are just not the same" and "the manager is difficult to deal with" then there are 2 other tf/800 shops one is a kabloom, they have the best possible walk in location that another flowershop was in for 100 years, they are busy, but I get people in all the time that don't like kabloom. The other is a 800-lfc, they probably do twice to 3 times the amount of WI that I do and they are doing ok.This is a true high volume multi shop location...They carry crappy flowers, i won't even borrow fresh product from them but will borrow containers. They hold their own and have not heard anything bad about they are in trouble or anything like that...the manager there is a nice person, very sweet works hard to make sure the shop looks very nice...

All this being said, I have doubled my business in 2 years. I do not take a paycheck but have realized my finances are becoming easier...I started out with a 25,000 dollar check for a business, not a dime in the bank extra and cutting back my 600.00 a week paycheck to just my husband's pay...My dad said I will give you the money for the biz but you are on your own to make it work...It was scary, but I had an ok strategy...Not the smartest one...To date the business has cost my husband and I 1000.00 out of my house...I have always made enough money to buy my flowers and products, pay the bills support my technology and pay a driver. Times were hard the first 2 years, We barely ate out, we barely went to a movie, we barely did anything that wasn't shop related because there was not an extra dime...Now things have lightend up....and we have plenty of money to enetertain ourselves because of my business....

I am still about $150,000 a year shy of where I want to be for a yearly gross, but it is getting there...

You cannot tell me that i don't make money being a filler, if I didn't I would not be in business today...I attribute this to good buying, working hard to do everything myself(for now), good use of eveything I buy(no waste), just plain old good shop management....

WS free or WS memeber, it all comes down to good flower shop management to be successful...Making less money wasting mistakes makes the world go round....While my money waste may seem like a lot in the tech area, yours may be in dumpage or staffing oradvertising, even though WS free you probably aren't doing any better....
 
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lori042499 said:
Benefits: easy order sending, website that does itself If I don't have time, POS sysytem that cost me nothing upfront and TF gave me credit for, garauntee of payment for orders filled, unbiased middle man when a sender screws up my order, international sending, marketing materials to make nice porfessional looking ads(should I choose)...

Cons: deceptive fillers and senders, fees that go up daily, a quality department that is kind of bogus or at least doesn't work too well, reciprocity fees to force you to be with only one service, sucky customer service(always getting the run around)

I am a bigger filler than a sender...

I maybe send 10-20 orders a month....

My strategy was for TF to pay for my website and pos system for the most part(I expected to pay them a check on some months) and for 800-flowers to help me through building my local business.

I knew I was buying a struggling business. I knew I did not have enough business to fill my days. I knew I could grow business. I knew I needed a website and a pos(because you ain't sheet with out either). I knew I am a sucky photographer and not that great with the know how on websites and technology and photoshop..

I also knew that I had enough friends in the biz with TF shops that I could get enough WI orders to mostly pay for website and POS. I don't care if I personnally make a dime from TF as long as that service mostly pays for my tech needs...

I also knew how to play the 800 game and I could eventually get enough orders to move my flowers and reach out to some local people...Many shops just send out free arrangements to random people in the begining to move flowers that have just sat for a few days, I chose to get paid .50 on every dollar to do it...Smarter than your average bear(maybe)..


I don't make my full dollars on any WI order, but you rarely every make full dollars on anything with benefits....People who work contracts get way better money than actual employees of the same company because they are not getting the benefits that the employee gets. The fact of the matter is that if you do not belong to a WS the fees won't be there, but also the extra business won't be there. You cannot say well I can do this with the money I save from being in a WS, because you also sacrifice the income with the very WS you are cutting off. So the money I give to the WS I would have to count in how much it would cost me to purchase the equipment and software for POS, the time and expense of a website also figure in if my sucky photo products would sell and if I would decrease my orders, figure out how many dollars worth of flowers I would throw away, figure how little variety in flowers I would have. I am sure I could operate my flower shop just fine without the WS, but I would operate as a very small, tiny florist.

Operating with a WS. I operate as a bigger small florist, I give the feeling of a bigger more successful business which gives people the confidence to shop with me. That couple with my knowledge and expertise in my field helps build business...I have customers that are primarily phone customers that had no idea I was a 1 man operation until they came to my shop and saw how small and me just waiting for them to walk through the door...
Even my awning screams of a bigger shop with my worldwide delivery front a center...

I have 6 other competing shops in a 5 mile radius.. well now 5 because one closed. The one that closed was WS free, she was so slow that she started closing early everyday became undependable and finally gave up because her rent was costing her money everymonth, nevermind her phone and electric..She envys my shop because she thinks I am super busy and making millions, that is OK with me that is the vision I want people to see. Another shop is WS free, It works for him, I guess..he's been around for 12 years, still struggles at times, had to subdivide his shop to help with rent, but still runs a nice gift and flower shop...I never see his stuff at any funeral homes or the hospital but he must be selling something....there's another FTD shop, she just recently had a baby and gave up being at the shop and hired a manager, I have gotten 3 of her weekly accounts because "things are just not the same" and "the manager is difficult to deal with" then there are 2 other tf/800 shops one is a kabloom, they have the best possible walk in location that another flowershop was in for 100 years, they are busy, but I get people in all the time that don't like kabloom. The other is a 800-lfc, they probably do twice to 3 times the amount of WI that I do and they are doing ok.This is a true high volume multi shop location...They carry crappy flowers, i won't even borrow fresh product from them but will borrow containers. They hold their own and have not heard anything bad about they are in trouble or anything like that...the manager there is a nice person, very sweet works hard to make sure the shop looks very nice...

All this being said, I have doubled my business in 2 years. I do not take a paycheck but have realized my finances are becoming easier...I started out with a 25,000 dollar check for a business, not a dime in the bank extra and cutting back my 600.00 a week paycheck to just my husband's pay...My dad said I will give you the money for the biz but you are on your own to make it work...It was scary, but I had an ok strategy...Not the smartest one...To date the business has cost my husband and I 1000.00 out of my house...I have always made enough money to buy my flowers and products, pay the bills support my technology and pay a driver. Times were hard the first 2 years, We barely ate out, we barely went to a movie, we barely did anything that wasn't shop related because there was not an extra dime...Now things have lightend up....and we have plenty of money to enetertain ourselves because of my business....

I am still about $150,000 a year shy of where I want to be for a yearly gross, but it is getting there...

You cannot tell me that i don't make money being a filler, if I didn't I would not be in business today...I attribute this to good buying, working hard to do everything myself(for now), good use of eveything I buy(no waste), just plain old good shop management....

WS free or WS memeber, it all comes down to good flower shop management to be successful...Making less money wasting mistakes makes the world go round....While my money waste may seem like a lot in the tech area, yours may be in dumpage or staffing oradvertising, even though WS free you probably aren't doing any better....
Click to expand...

I didn't buy a flower shop. I created one from the first brick up and now operate with a profit, tripling my sales from year one. I am now in year three. I have no debt and owe no one. Although I am proud to be in a position to buy my building now. I operate from a small town with only 400 households and deliver to 3 major areas around me. I have 4 part time employees. So I would not slam my business sense so quickly because I don't make money filling. I make money without being with a WS......according to you, you can't do that. That alone attests to my business decision ability.

What is your average order amount of those 10 - 20 orders a month, Lori?
What directory services do you use with 1800? How much does that website cost you to be like everyone else's website?

I don't mean to poke, I am just poking back. You obviously are a successful floral shop or you would not be open today. I do not think I am smarter or a better business person than anyone on FC. As I have repeated myself over and over, I want fillers to be completely aware of the money they are losing, IF THEY ARE. I hope you have continued success and prosper. I truly do. As I know I will.
 
inferno63 said:
I didn't buy a flower shop. I created one from the first brick up and now operate with a profit, tripling my sales from year one. I am now in year three. I have no debt and owe no one. Although I am proud to be in a position to buy my building now. I operate from a small town with only 400 households and deliver to 3 major areas around me. I have 4 part time employees. So I would not slam my business sense so quickly because I don't make money filling. I make money without being with a WS......according to you, you can't do that. That alone attests to my business decision ability.

What is your average order amount of those 10 - 20 orders a month, Lori?
What directory services do you use with 1800? How much does that website cost you to be like everyone else's website?

I don't mean to poke, I am just poking back. You obviously are a successful floral shop or you would not be open today. I do not think I am smarter or a better business person than anyone on FC. As I have repeated myself over and over, I want fillers to be completely aware of the money they are losing, IF THEY ARE. I hope you have continued success and prosper. I truly do. As I know I will.
Click to expand...



and I want them to be completely aware of the fact that not all fillers are losing....a very many do...

This was not directed at you or anyone else...so stop getting into the emotions of things...this is where the soap box and high horse arrive...

Just because you couldn't make money as a filler because, of demographics, politics, mismanagement or some other reason, this does not mean that every filler will lose at the WS game, it is a per shop basis everyone needs to make the decision for themselves without being told by someone else that my way is better an do it like me and you will win. It just simply isn't true...

I was just giving the answer that was asked in the beginning of this thread because I missed it in the hospital...
 
lori042499 said:
and I want them to be completely aware of the fact that not all fillers are losing....a very many do...

This was not directed at you or anyone else...so stop getting into the emotions of things...this is where the soap box and high horse arrive...

Just because you couldn't make money as a filler because, of demographics, politics, mismanagement or some other reason, this does not mean that every filler will lose at the WS game, it is a per shop basis everyone needs to make the decision for themselves without being told by someone else that my way is better an do it like me and you will win. It just simply isn't true...

I was just giving the answer that was asked in the beginning of this thread because I missed it in the hospital...
Click to expand...

And again......I am not saying that everyone loses money filling. I am saying that many do and don't know it. I just wondered what your average order amount is for the 10 to 20 orders you fill each month. I am also curious as to your membership fees, directory fees, website fees, etc. If you don't want to answer those questions, that's fine.

And what I am answering is where you specifically started your post with "Inferno...." or with a quote from my post. Was I wrong to assume that you were talking to me? If so, my apologies.
 
My benefits post did not quote anyone...I really have no idea what you are talking about....

my average order form 800 is 59.99 that is average...the average local order for my shop is 65.00.

My website cost me more than yours definately, but I have no desire to work 12 hours a day on getting pictures just right and adding content and updating..I customize my website and could do more with it but I would rather work at it at my leisure...I recoup my per order charges in my web delivery it is higher than my in store delivery...my directory fees have been cut back twice in two years, I do not take ads, I send solely through TF so I do not pay their reciprocity fee but I do make the 800-less than 20 filling payment...I pay alot of fees for convenience sake, but I choose to do so and I also choose to have me work it all with only a driver no help so I choose to do it all myself and pay for the services instead of pay those 4 employees you choose to pay...and I only really kill myself working at the holidays the rest of the time it 10-5 or 10-4 6 days...not too bad.. no staying late doing hand written paperwork, or website changes or website uploads....

If 800 had MAS back when I joined I would have been with them from the start and no TF I would have killed two birds with one stone and been able to not double up on some fees...sending would have been tougher because there are a lot of shops I use that have no use for 800...
 
Sorry I didn't catch that I fill way more a month than that..that is sending sometimes its as low as one but 10- 20 is norm, but it doesn't get me any rebates....
 
I average 100 orders a month wired in...bulk form 800...
 
lori042499 said:
somewhere around 25%
Click to expand...

I will give you kudos where kudos are due. If you are doing an average of 100 filling orders for just 800 at an average of $59.99 each and that represents 25% of your gross sales then you are pushing on average over $280,000 annually in gross sales through your shop with only you and one driver. That is amazing and more than I could do only working most days 10 to 5 except holidays. In fact, I absolutely know beyond a doubt that I couldn't do that. You got me on that one. :grovel:
 
inferno63 said:
I will give you kudos where kudos are due. If you are doing an average of 100 filling orders for just 800 at an average of $59.99 each and that represents 25% of your gross sales then you are pushing on average over $280,000 annually in gross sales through your shop with only you and one driver. That is amazing and more than I could do only working most days 10 to 5 except holidays. In fact, I absolutely know beyond a doubt that I couldn't do that. You got me on that one. :grovel:
Click to expand...


I am a pretty fast designer, not to toot my own horn...

I have and can get done 1500.00 worth of funeral work from 9 til noon when it needs to be there..It's happened before and may happen again...

When I tell people that the way to make money is to not over hire this is what I mean..Most shops have way to many employees for what they do in biz a day...I would say that a shop that does 15-20 orders a day needs the owner, a helper and a full/part time driver....I have worked in shops that did 10 orders aday and had 3 employees and a driver and couldn't figure out what was wrong...
 
lori042499 said:
I am a pretty fast designer, not to toot my own horn...

I have and can get done 1500.00 worth of funeral work from 9 til noon when it needs to be there..It's happened before and may happen again...

When I tell people that the way to make money is to not over hire this is what I mean..Most shops have way to many employees for what they do in biz a day...I would say that a shop that does 15-20 orders a day needs the owner, a helper and a full/part time driver....I have worked in shops that did 10 orders aday and had 3 employees and a driver and couldn't figure out what was wrong...
Click to expand...


As you may already know, I am lucky enough to have 4 on-call employees. I haven't used labor since May. I understand what you mean but I don't design as fast as you and many times am at work until 9 or 10 at night designing the next mornings deliveries. Like I said, kudos to you. I can only aspire to become that fast.
 
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