Having Fun with Just Flowers.

[HeatherTuckey]

...the WS is a losing game. You LOSE profits,
Correction you still profit, just less of a profit. The choice is get nothing or get an order at less profit.

you LOSE sales to them via their websites,
You can take advantage of their enormous advertising budget by getting some of the "lost sales" back at less profit, but you choose to refuse the orders via WS.

the crappy designs that you have to put YOUR name on,
If any florist or OG send an order for an item you choose not to put your name on, you have the option to refuse. It's just a few keystrokes, not hard.

and not to mention their drop-ship sh*t that you don't even get a cut of.
Telelfora only here... and that is a major reason why.

My opinions above in red.

 

[HeatherTuckey]

I guess my rant for the week is on minimums.

The only defense I have seen of late of the wire services, is that on a big order you can make money, and we suspend, turn off, refuse, ask for more, take the phone off the hook for the rest, which I would think is about 50% of the business they get.

I would love to be part of a reasonable wire service if it made any sense what so ever to do so. What is a customer on this site to do if they want to send those $30.00 flowers somewhere. There are sites everywhere with low $ value products to compete with the drop shippers, customers want to buy it and send it somewhere else, but it seems that the most successful WS florists have high minimums that cause a HUGE CRACK in the system.

So it can't be defended that the current WS model is a good idea at all. Those low orders spool around until some sucker florist takes them and then goes out of business or, you know who is going to fill those orders? The Supermarkets. They may not be delivering yet, but just wait for it! They already have the biggest share of the walk in business. What's to stop them from starting to deliver. Anyone can get flowers delivered for $5-$10, so why not them? Who then will be the "preferred filler" of the WS?

It just makes the Bloomex and ProFlowers model look more and more inviting for both the wire services and the consumers. "Retail Florists are expensive" Yup.

Are the florists cutting their own throats? Time for a serious change, and though we are not a WS florist, this affects us too. Many believe that TFTD etc are the voice of the business. This need to change in a hurry if we are to survive.

1. Drop the minimums
2. Drop the excessive sending fees
3. Drop the wire services

This is a bit of a rant, and I don't mean to single out Heather at all. I am still waiting for good reason for the minimum, other than it's because the WS fees are so big and the 20% reduction to the order by the sending florist is too much, so we can't afford anything else. I have been dancing around this question for a few weeks on various posts already, so please enlighten me!!!

You may some very valid points. In the years before the dreaded TF-WEB #'s and OG's... most florists would send a REASONABLE $30 order which was a "mixed vase" or "small basket arr" or a "wrapped bouquet"... that you could very easily use what flowers needed to be used OR pull from your backstock. I would also gladly accept a "blooming plant in a basket" or "cut flowers wrapped" for $30. I drop a 6" bloomer in a basket - done 3 minutes with a bow, moss maybe dressed up with a butterfly. The problem is everything is a pictured item now and OG's and very few florists take SECOND CHOICES. Drives me nuts... good florists train their staff to say something like "our affiliate may or may not have a potted kalanchoe in stock, if they are do not have the kalanchoe they will use another blooming plant". We transmit our orders as "2nd choice: similar". We even urge this by creating a prompt for this on our check out on the web.

When's the last time any of you saw an "or similar" or a incoming WS order??? Maybe a little at holidays, but rarely ever on an everyday order.

What I think we need to do it to refuse the low dollar labor intensive items, so the OG's and florists start to feature "designers choice", cut flowers wrapped, plants or other less labor intensive items.

 

[Joe Mioux]

But you STILL compromise your profits by spreading out the fixed costs of that sale thereby increasing your overall fixed costs.

As I said... you can count beans all day. I'm not in biz to make a little profit, I'm in biz to make as much profit with as little cost as possible and the w/s and it's associated costs hinder that concept.

Tim - North Port Floral

No..... you still don't understand.

what i am saying is that certain sales either exist or they don't, i.e. WS sales. If you don't belong to a ws you will not get those orders. If you can cover your variable costs of the product and membership costs, you will earn more net profit BECAUSE you are covering your fixed costs over more sales.

joe

 

[Joe Mioux]

let me use an example

$100K in GS without WS, COGS at $30K, FC at $60k and Net Profit at $10K

Now, new scenario with WS,

$110K in GS, COGS $33K, FC a $60K, WS-fixed costs, $2.4K, Net Profit $14.6K

Again, I am not advocating anyone join a WS, but at least do be honest with yourself as you evaluate WS business or any other additional business that may increase your bottom line.

There is a balance with WS business. Receive too few orders and the WS member fees will keep that shop unprofitable.

Receive too many as it relates to total sales and that shop may not be profitable either. For example a shop that hires additional design and delivery, and office labor solely to process WS orders runs a good risk of losing money. However, I think a shop like that could be profitable, it just means other costs would have to be adjusted.

joe

 

[makescents]

you have no idea what I am talking about, do you?

No - Not really - that's why I asked you to explain your view further... but... at this point.. Let's live by the rules of Twila and agree to disagree! :O) 'Cuz I'm tired!

 

[duanermb]

No..... you still don't understand.

what i am saying is that certain sales either exist or they don't, i.e. WS sales. If you don't belong to a ws you will not get those orders. If you can cover your variable costs of the product and membership costs, you will earn more net profit BECAUSE you are covering your fixed costs over more sales.

joe

Only if you need it. I can see this as a benefit if you are keeping high staffing levels for holidays. I think that's where the -ve calculations break down.

 

[bloomz]

the crappy designs that you have to put YOUR name on

Tim - North Port Floral

Crappy designs?

opinions vary.....

I'm proud to feature most of their stuff.

I'd love to say we do better but I'm a realist. :headbang:

 

[NPFloral]

Crappy designs?

opinions vary.....

I'm proud to feature most of their stuff.

I'd love to say we do better but I'm a realist. :headbang:

Yes... opinions vary. I prefer to use the John Henry books for design *ideas* and go from there. Or just come up with my own.


However...
If you follow the w/s recipes there's no way the arrangement can look like the picture without being one-sided or crammed into a 6" container.

Anyway... my opinion is that the w/s are a bane to our industry.

Your Mileage May Vary.

Tim - North Port Floral

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

interesting how easily we become sidetracked!!
Joe.....using your "fertilizer" analogy, everything is "correct", except, the fact that "licensing" fees to CARRY the product (in this case, the wire service expenses PER order) OUTWEIGH the actual work involved in carrying it AND being "responsible" for it!!

 

[bloomz]

Yes... opinions vary. I prefer to use the John Henry books for design *ideas* and go from there. Or just come up with my own.


However...
If you follow the w/s recipes there's no way the arrangement can look like the picture without being one-sided or crammed into a 6" container.

Anyway... my opinion is that the w/s are a bane to our industry.

Your Mileage May Vary.

Tim - North Port Floral

Well I don't know much about art but I know what sells!

PS you're right about the bane deal, but whatcha gonna do?

(I'm gonna try to make money from them)

 

[Joe Mioux]

interesting how easily we become sidetracked!!
Joe.....using your "fertilizer" analogy, everything is "correct", except, the fact that "licensing" fees to CARRY the product (in this case, the wire service expenses PER order) OUTWEIGH the actual work involved in carrying it AND being "responsible" for it!!

mikey, it was just an example....

lets change the example.... Church poinsettias, What is the difference between a flower shop discounting the price of a poinsettia say from $20 per pot to $10 per pot with the cost being $5?

That price change from a retail price to a discounted church price represents a 50 pct discount.

Either you give the church that discount (earn less Gross Profit) or you don't make the sale.

What is better on say 100 pots of poinsettias? Earning $500 in Gross Profit or earning zero $ because you didn't discount the order?

want another example? how about a school asking for carnations at $1.00 when you normally retail them for $1.50.

That represents a 30 pct discount, ...... either you discount the order to get make the sale or you don't make the sale.

Any revenue - additional sales that you would not get because you didn't negotiate the price- over and above the Cogs and vc will make your business more profitable.

Want another example????

another???

joe

 

[makescents]

mikey, it was just an example....

lets change the example.... Church poinsettias, What is the difference between a flower shop discounting the price of a poinsettia say from $20 per pot to $10 per pot with the cost being $5?

That price change from a retail price to a discounted church price represents a 50 pct discount.

Either you give the church that discount (earn less Gross Profit) or you don't make the sale.

What is better on say 100 pots of poinsettias? Earning $500 in Gross Profit or earning zero $ because you didn't discount the order?

want another example? how about a school asking for carnations at $1.00 when you normally retail them for $1.50.

That represents a 30 pct discount, ...... either you discount the order to get make the sale or you don't make the sale.

Any revenue - additional sales that you would not get because you didn't negotiate the price- over and above the Cogs and vc will make your business more profitable.

Want another example????

another???

joe

Yes... this is all true but at what cost?

#1 Now the church knows what type of markup you have - and they either are appauled that your normal prices are gouging, or own their own business and understand

#2 The church folks you discounted to - tell others about the discount and then others expect it - If they don't get it then they think you are playing favorites.. "Why did Bill get a discount but me - I have been your customer for 10 years.. where's my discount??"

#3 Does the church take the proceeds that they profit from your discount and then turn around and market against you in your own market...?? UMMM NO! :hammer:

 

[Joe Mioux]

btw: i just got a check from FTD for $399.xx on $626 of sales. Even if my COGS and VC are 50 pct, I actually come out $86 ahead had I not made those 20 extra sales.

or lets look where my break even point is.....

say COGS and other VC totals 35 pct. or $219.10.

do Break even point = FC/VC per unit-Selling Price per unit

or $227/$219/20-$626/20

or $227/ 10.95-31.30

or $227/20.35 = 11.15 orders

so my Break even point was 11.15 orders, since I actually received 20 orders for April, I made money.

joe

 

[Joe Mioux]

Yes... this is all true but at what cost?

#1 Now the church knows what type of markup you have - and they either are appauled that your normal prices are gouging, or own their own business and understand

#2 The church folks you discounted to - tell others about the discount and then others expect it - If they don't get it then they think you are playing favorites.. "Why did Bill get a discount but me - I have been your customer for 10 years.. where's my discount??"

#3 Does the church take the proceeds that they profit from your discount and then turn around and market against you in your own market...?? UMMM NO! :hammer:

1)The church doesn't know nor do they care what my costs are.

2)i would hope those churches would tell other churches.... I like sales and any additional sale that i get helps me.

3) UMM .... I don't care! I can not control OG's all I can do is control my own activity. This whole thread was not about getting all emotional about OG marketing practices. This thread is about earning OR not earning Contribution Margin Profit... the problem with your side is that you let emotions direct your business decisions.

joe

 

[makescents]

1)the problem with your side is that you let emotions direct your business decisions.

joe

Our industry is an emotion based business.. flowers are emotion - I sell with this in mind... And I am a red head..

Maybe I got off topic a bit - but I didn't get ugly.. gee - I'll just shut up now.

 

[BOSS]

I'll just shut up now.

Me too.............................................................................

 

[bloomz]

Geez that would be terrible if all the churches in town heard about it and started buying too, huh???

Our industry is an emotion based business.. flowers are emotion - I sell with this in mind...

Yup - we SELL emotional messages. People PAY US to deliver their emotions.

We don't do it to make ourselves feel good, not if we want to remain in business.

But I guess you can if you want to...:hammer:

 

[Joe Mioux]

Our industry is an emotion based business.. flowers are emotion - I sell with this in mind... And I am a red head..

Maybe I got off topic a bit - but I didn't get ugly.. gee - I'll just shut up now.

I am not being ugly....

just stating facts without emotion, don't read emotion into my comments.

I can take or leave WS orders, if they are profitable I take them if not, I ask for more money, If i get the money i fill them if I don't, the sender rejects.

as is the case right now, 800 sent me a $39.99 Make Lemonade bouquet without a delivery fee added. I sent them an INQ asking for $8, if I get it the money I will fill the order.

btw: when and how does your emotions provide you with better decision making capabilities as it relates to running your business?

 

[Joe Mioux]

btw, makescents.....

if a local flower shop would call you up and ask if you could help them out because they are out of red roses, would you help out the shop?

have you ever done this?

or would you ever help out?

joe

 

[makescents]

btw, makescents.....

if a local flower shop would call you up and ask if you could help them out because they are out of red roses, would you help out the shop?

have you ever done this?

or would you ever help out?

joe

Yes.. for the most part - Why? I know you have a point...

and please - I don't want to argue with you anymore - I see your point - But I will not agree with you.

Can we be friends? Hi I'm Tammie!

And yes I sell emotion! How much do you love her? I am good at it! And it works for me and my business - filling og's does not.. that's all.