Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
This is getting pretty close to the 80/20 rule. if you take into account that there is currently 22.58 pct nonWS/FC members v 77.42pct WS/FC'rs.
joe
Less skewed wire service participation poll
- Thread starter inferno63
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This is getting pretty close to the 80/20 rule. if you take into account that there is currently 22.58 pct nonWS/FC members v 77.42pct WS/FC'rs.
joe
Or the way I look at it Joe. It won't be long and that 18% on the fence, will be on their way to recovery. And be independent thinkers again.
lori042499
Well-Known Member
- May 3, 2006
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If you believe this you are a crazy person......
A bad shop could give a arat's azz less about you and your order....
You calling a shop and speaking to them gives you an idea that they are run by someone with a brain and you get a sense if you should entrust them with your order...
lori042499
Well-Known Member
- May 3, 2006
- 6,457
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I am not really sure what there is to learn from this survey...
The fact of the matter is that WS are a neccessary evil for most shops for one or more reasons...Every shop is different and must determine what works for them
Do the WS suck for fillers??? a resounding yes
Do they not suck so bad for senders?? a resounding yes
Are they ever going to listen to the fillers??? hell no, it is their business to do with what they need to make money...Their business model, their rules, join and play by them or take your ball and quit
These items will never change....never, ever, ever...if we rehash it in 2 years 4 years or 20 years...never, ever
As far as people getting complaints about WO orders, did you ever think that it was your selling technique??
If you are not 100% happy and trustful of the service you joined, do you think you might show this to the customer as you make the sale???
If you constantly are trying to educate your customers not to send through a flower broker through a wire service, do you think you may be setting them up to be leery of what they are getting and nit picking the arrangement because when you send an order through a wireservice you ultimately become very equal with the evil OG(broker)???
I never have any complaints with my wire outs because the bulk of them are going to florists I know are worthwhile and great businesses. If I do have an order going to someone or somewhere I don't know, I take a minute to call them and ask a few questions and find out what kind of an idiot answers the phone....if i get cricket's chirping, I hang up and call another until I find the real live flower shop with a person working that knows the difference between a carnation and babbies breath....
Wire Services will never be easy!!!!
The fact of the matter is that WS are a neccessary evil for most shops for one or more reasons...Every shop is different and must determine what works for them
Do the WS suck for fillers??? a resounding yes
Do they not suck so bad for senders?? a resounding yes
Are they ever going to listen to the fillers??? hell no, it is their business to do with what they need to make money...Their business model, their rules, join and play by them or take your ball and quit
These items will never change....never, ever, ever...if we rehash it in 2 years 4 years or 20 years...never, ever
As far as people getting complaints about WO orders, did you ever think that it was your selling technique??
If you are not 100% happy and trustful of the service you joined, do you think you might show this to the customer as you make the sale???
If you constantly are trying to educate your customers not to send through a flower broker through a wire service, do you think you may be setting them up to be leery of what they are getting and nit picking the arrangement because when you send an order through a wireservice you ultimately become very equal with the evil OG(broker)???
I never have any complaints with my wire outs because the bulk of them are going to florists I know are worthwhile and great businesses. If I do have an order going to someone or somewhere I don't know, I take a minute to call them and ask a few questions and find out what kind of an idiot answers the phone....if i get cricket's chirping, I hang up and call another until I find the real live flower shop with a person working that knows the difference between a carnation and babbies breath....
Wire Services will never be easy!!!!
14 Wire service free members here?
Not exactly industry changing power, especially considering these are the last ones wire services would ever listen to, if they listened to anyone.
We've already been rehashing this for the 10 years I've been playing on florist forums.
I think as many have rejoined after quitting as that 14 fershure.
Go figure - - this cry to "Go wire service free" we've heard about 24,237 times here isn't exactly a groundswell movement, is it.
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
RE: lori's last post. Lori asks a good question.
"will they ever listen to the filler? no."
If a florist wants to be associated with a WS, it is their/yours/ours/my responsibilty to figure out how to make those inbound orders profitable, not theirs.
How do you do this? pay the WS bills on time so a Rebate check comes back to you, negotiate membership fees, send more orders than receive (that isn't possible for some areas of the country) and not lie to self about the true cost of an inbound WS orders. (Labor? if you are a big filler and hire designers to ONLY fill orders then -yea, but if you do not add additonal design labor for those orders then -no, etc...) buy less expensive flower, i.e. flowerbuyer or someother vendor.
joe
"will they ever listen to the filler? no."
If a florist wants to be associated with a WS, it is their/yours/ours/my responsibilty to figure out how to make those inbound orders profitable, not theirs.
How do you do this? pay the WS bills on time so a Rebate check comes back to you, negotiate membership fees, send more orders than receive (that isn't possible for some areas of the country) and not lie to self about the true cost of an inbound WS orders. (Labor? if you are a big filler and hire designers to ONLY fill orders then -yea, but if you do not add additonal design labor for those orders then -no, etc...) buy less expensive flower, i.e. flowerbuyer or someother vendor.
joe
By the posts, I think we have all gained some knowledge from the survey. I for one found the results to be about what I suspected. And for my purposes, therefore, good information.
As for how I sold my wire outs, I did more grooming them for something spectacular than not. I want them to believe, even if I didn't, that the item delivered would be what they expected. Additionally, if I am to believe Lori's post then I have been hit upon the crown with the happy fairies and been lucky enough to have no problems calling a florist direct verses using the wire service. Thank you happy fairies, I knew you would come! I will ride that one.
My goal is not to talk big senders into quitting ws. My goal is to encourage fillers to quit. So for all of you that make money, fear not I am not your enemy. I believe that when then are no more fillers to send orders to, the bricks will crumbled. WS started with an idea in someone's head and grew from there. So for everyone who thinks that Rome won't fall......
Good luck to all no matter what your position on the issue. I respect most of everything I hear on FC. And, I respect your opinions and input. Thank you.
As for how I sold my wire outs, I did more grooming them for something spectacular than not. I want them to believe, even if I didn't, that the item delivered would be what they expected. Additionally, if I am to believe Lori's post then I have been hit upon the crown with the happy fairies and been lucky enough to have no problems calling a florist direct verses using the wire service. Thank you happy fairies, I knew you would come! I will ride that one.
My goal is not to talk big senders into quitting ws. My goal is to encourage fillers to quit. So for all of you that make money, fear not I am not your enemy. I believe that when then are no more fillers to send orders to, the bricks will crumbled. WS started with an idea in someone's head and grew from there. So for everyone who thinks that Rome won't fall......
Good luck to all no matter what your position on the issue. I respect most of everything I hear on FC. And, I respect your opinions and input. Thank you.
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
So, even though this isn't a representative sampling for statistical analysis, lets look at the numbers.
If 20 pct of all U.S. flower shops are non WS, using this poll results, that means that there are probably less than 4000 shops across the country that are not WS affiliated. That doesn't create much of a netwok for you nonWS shops does it. What it means is that you are dependent on WS member shops to get your orders filled. I am not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with this practice, just making an observation.
Also, within the WSfree respondents, how many of your are home based? That is another criteria that did not get addressed with this poll.
Inferno, I don't know how you extrapolate calling orders out without a WS as receiving better quality service from those filling shops. How many of your outbound orders go to WS member shops? Also, how many inbound orders to you receive from other flower shops? just curious.
Also, Inferno, since you dumped the WS, do you still have a WS directory for easy lookup of other shops?
Joe
If 20 pct of all U.S. flower shops are non WS, using this poll results, that means that there are probably less than 4000 shops across the country that are not WS affiliated. That doesn't create much of a netwok for you nonWS shops does it. What it means is that you are dependent on WS member shops to get your orders filled. I am not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with this practice, just making an observation.
Also, within the WSfree respondents, how many of your are home based? That is another criteria that did not get addressed with this poll.
Inferno, I don't know how you extrapolate calling orders out without a WS as receiving better quality service from those filling shops. How many of your outbound orders go to WS member shops? Also, how many inbound orders to you receive from other flower shops? just curious.
Also, Inferno, since you dumped the WS, do you still have a WS directory for easy lookup of other shops?
Joe
master J
Well-Known Member
Hey Joe,
not trying to start an argument, just giving an opinion
You don't really need to use a WS directory to find other florists, all you need is the internet. However, even if you did use a WS directory, so what?!
IMO, You will get better value calling a CC at 100% with a florist rather than sending over the WS. Wether that florist you give cc order to is in a WS or not, really doesn't matter....they will fill it more to value using their grade A batch of flowers, rather than the low end, cheaper, standard flowerbuyer product
I am not pointing finger at anybody in particular or suggesting that all florists in WS skim on the filling side, I just believe a lot of them will or have to , in order to profit on the filling side.
Well good luck to you on that one too - I couldn't even get them to quit filling DOG orders, let alone convince another shop owner to quit the wire service completely.
But I understand education and learning about profit margins on incoming and all - florist chat boards helped me figure that out too, but I can't help but wonder why you feel the need to try to convince others wire services aren't working for them just because they didn't work for you.
It's an exercise in futility - been there done that. The band of 14, above is hardly an industry force for change.
But good luck with it anyway - let us know if it works.
Hey Joe,
not trying to start an argument, just giving an opinion
You don't really need to use a WS directory to find other florists, all you need is the internet. However, even if you did use a WS directory, so what?!
IMO, You will get better value calling a CC at 100% with a florist rather than sending over the WS. Wether that florist you give cc order to is in a WS or not, really doesn't matter....they will fill it more to value using their grade A batch of flowers, rather than the low end, cheaper, standard flowerbuyer product
I am not pointing finger at anybody in particular or suggesting that all florists in WS skim on the filling side, I just believe a lot of them will or have to , in order to profit on the filling side.
Using the internet to find quality florists is a complete crap shoot.
I was told once about 10 years ago by a wire service rep who'd been around - that probably 50% of florists skim incoming.
Given that - most of the florists you find - on the internet or otherwise
are going to be one of those.
And if you ask for or they give you a discount - they're gonna do the exact same thing to that order.
Here's a question for another poll...How many of the 14 wire service free florists ask the filling shop for a discount?
PS - I am trying to start an argument.:ssmoke
PPS - Just kidding:loopy
PPPS = opinions vary:wide:
PPPPS - blessings :squish:
PPPPPS - snuck snuck snuck - sez my piggie
PPPPPPS - WHEE! sez my elephant
The only component different with the wire outs is the ws. I am sure that I have called out orders to ws members. It is true that in the last 3 months I have had better quality, service, and delivery calling direct. When I used WS I am not entirely sure why I was treated differently other than my own speculation that it was more personal with a call and no other ws fees were assessed on the order. I welcome opinions on this because I don't know why. It is just true that with about 50% of the ws wire outs, I had problems where none exist so far calling direct.
As long as I have the internet, I don't require a ws directory. I have yet to fail to find many, many florists willing to fill my orders using the internet. Is there another advantage to the directories I am not aware of?
I agree that not all situations are representative in this survey. If there are questions, I would love to see more polls on the subject.
marigold
Well-Known Member
"Here's a question for another poll...How many of the 14 wire service free florists ask the filling shop for a discount? " Bloomz
I don't ask for a discount, nor do I give one. I feel the florist should charge their
"fee" on their end and not expect the filling florist to give the discount.
So, if the sending florist needs to make 20% on the outgoing order,(or 10 or 15%
whatever works for your and your profits) and your
order is for $50.00, charge your customer an extra $10.00 in addition to your
sending fee. This way, the customer know he is sending 50.00 worth of flowers,
filling florist fills it for $50.00, your customer is paying you $10.00 plus your
sending fee. Just lump it altogether..."My fee for this order is $16.95 to send
the order. "Total, 69.95 plus tax."
Our customers don't expect us to send
it for free. We always give them the option of sending it themselves if they wish
and will give them a number if they need one. Most just want us to handle the
order.
I don't ask for a discount, nor do I give one. I feel the florist should charge their
"fee" on their end and not expect the filling florist to give the discount.
So, if the sending florist needs to make 20% on the outgoing order,(or 10 or 15%
whatever works for your and your profits) and your
order is for $50.00, charge your customer an extra $10.00 in addition to your
sending fee. This way, the customer know he is sending 50.00 worth of flowers,
filling florist fills it for $50.00, your customer is paying you $10.00 plus your
sending fee. Just lump it altogether..."My fee for this order is $16.95 to send
the order. "Total, 69.95 plus tax."
Our customers don't expect us to send
it for free. We always give them the option of sending it themselves if they wish
and will give them a number if they need one. Most just want us to handle the
order.
I am not trying to convince anyone making money on WS to quit. I am just wanting filling florists to take a hard look at their numbers to see a realistic picture of what they are truly making. I am betting that many don't even know the money they lose. If they examine those numbers and find they are making money, hurray.....but I believe there are many more losing money that don't know it.
I don't ask for a discount when I call direct although I have been offered one. On a case by case basis I work with the florist to ensure that my customers get what they expect. And again, that is if I am asked to send an order out because a customer doesn't want to call themselves.
And thank you bloomz for a respectful post. I will green dot you on that one. :bouncy:
LJVF
Well-Known Member
How many orders have you phoned direct in the last 3 months? If the sample size is too small you won't get accurate results.
Inferno, I recall you mentioned in another thread that when you did have a wire service you were phoning your orders direct anyways and you were only averaging 8 incoming per month. It doesn't make sense to carry a wire service in your particular situation, but not everybody has the same set of circumstances. I think this is the problem with these wire service polls and threads, there are so many on different pages with different variables that it creates a skewed debate and difficult for some to relate to others.
To answer the question, I will not be asking for discounts when I call my network of florists around the country that I have compiled all by myself, including many FC florists. I can charge my customer a small fee and that's between us. The filling florist (ws member or not, doesn't matter for my purposes) can fill the order to full value.
As far as codified containers, which is a pro ws argument, we have a big florist in our area who is a smart guy and buys up case upon case of them for extras to sell to other florists who may need them. I believe he doesn't charge retail but does make a little $ on them. So if my customer is desperate for one of those containers I can call this guy and everyone's happy.
In a weird/mean way I hope close competitors would feel they did have to be ws; more overhead for them. I don't feel that ws are satan, just not necessary for me. It's all good, we all have to do what we feel is best.
As far as codified containers, which is a pro ws argument, we have a big florist in our area who is a smart guy and buys up case upon case of them for extras to sell to other florists who may need them. I believe he doesn't charge retail but does make a little $ on them. So if my customer is desperate for one of those containers I can call this guy and everyone's happy.
In a weird/mean way I hope close competitors would feel they did have to be ws; more overhead for them. I don't feel that ws are satan, just not necessary for me. It's all good, we all have to do what we feel is best.
The only problem with that Marigold is, no matter how you slice and dice it and explain it and line item it - the sender (purchaser) still paid the gross price of $69.95 for that flower delivery.
So in your example above (the 69.95 one) they're still getting 71% value, same as a wire order.
And possiby less, because with a wire order sent to a proper professional filling shop for $69.95, will get you $69.95 value for your customer, not $50.
And you would still make your 20% plus a rebate. $14 +3 or 4= $17-18.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you just made a case for sending thru a wire service, without mentioning the ancillary benefits like quality control, dispute resolution and more.
Your customers would get WAY better value for $ spent. Like $20 more. In my shop - that's a decent amount of extra flowers.
I do agree that non-wire service shops have no "right" to a discount, shouldn't need to ask for one or grant one, but please don't confuse sending full value with examples like yours above, cuz it just ain't true.
(I know you never made that claim, just many others here, well 14 possibly, do or have in the past)
So in your example above (the 69.95 one) they're still getting 71% value, same as a wire order.
And possiby less, because with a wire order sent to a proper professional filling shop for $69.95, will get you $69.95 value for your customer, not $50.
And you would still make your 20% plus a rebate. $14 +3 or 4= $17-18.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you just made a case for sending thru a wire service, without mentioning the ancillary benefits like quality control, dispute resolution and more.
Your customers would get WAY better value for $ spent. Like $20 more. In my shop - that's a decent amount of extra flowers.
I do agree that non-wire service shops have no "right" to a discount, shouldn't need to ask for one or grant one, but please don't confuse sending full value with examples like yours above, cuz it just ain't true.
(I know you never made that claim, just many others here, well 14 possibly, do or have in the past)
Bloomz, all I can say is "Quality control- WTF ever!"
Quality control is the biggest BS charge of them all!
Our TF rep flat out told us they don't go and even do "quality control" inspections anymore and haven't for 15 years.
Then he tells Amy that they only do them in big cities.
Can someone please tell me the logic behind that?????
Quality control is the biggest BS charge of them all!
Our TF rep flat out told us they don't go and even do "quality control" inspections anymore and haven't for 15 years.
Then he tells Amy that they only do them in big cities.
Can someone please tell me the logic behind that?????
Joe Mioux
Well-Known Member
This sounds more like a problem with you than the filling florist. Out of a thousand plus orders we send out every year, we might get one problem. There is no difference between your business and mine. the difference is you and me. - that is not a criticism. - just that we are different.
You did not answer my question. do you have wire service directory book(s) in your store? Since you skirted the question I asked earlier, it makes me think you do. (btw, if i quit a wire service, I certainly wouldn't throw that book(s) away). In my business, as in others, finding a shop on the internet is time consuming. I could easily spend more time finding a shop that way as I could making a casket spray. and if you aren't charging for that time, then you are seriously hampering your business' profitablity.
are you really a brick and mortar flower shop or a home based business? I see your FC name and it sounds more home based than a real flower shop B&M.
to reiterate: I could easily spend more time finding a shop that way as I could making a casket spray. and if you aren't charging for that time, then you are seriously hampering your business' profitablity.
btw: how many florists are in your network across the country? I have my favs in certain cities, but that is pretty local - southern IL and STL, but when i get outside of that calling area I need a large list of flower shops.
Joe
If you thought I phoned even when I had a ws, I have been misunderstood. I used the software to transmit orders when sending with a ws. Towards the end of my bloomnet membership, I uninstalled the software but didn't use the network to send out anymore, opting to call florist direct. Again, my situation was that I didn't make money and I maintain that there are probably many fillers that are not making money and don't know it. It would be interesting to do a number poll with the average number of filled orders per month and the average dollar amount of each order. The numbers would help me.
Sorry, no ws directory exists in my shop. Perhaps we are of a different breed but I always found the internet to be a more reliable source to find florists than the directories from ws. I can go on yahoo local or google local and not only find florists but customer reviews. The internet is much quicker and more reliable.
As far as you and I being different......maybe we are the same. I am sure you punched the keys when you entered a wire out the same as I. So why the difference in results? Good question. I suspect one factor is that you consistently send to the same florists over and over again, where my wire outs are so often to areas I don't normally deal with again and again. But I assure you Joe, I punch the keys the same as you. Any other ideas? Are there any others here you can validate my problems with ws wire out complaints? I am surely not alone with this as proof in another thread about the penalty to filling florists instituted by FTD on delivery issues. Apparently that thread alone contradicts your prediction about my business sense, Joe. There were tons of complaints on wire outs in that thread mostly by the WS member people who supported the penalty. Was one of them you?
Additionally, Bloomz feels that finding a good florist on line is a crap shoot but the same is true of the WS members. That is why they had to charge a quality assurance fee and why they began penalties because bad florists exist there also.
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