Not Much Hope for Wire Serive Change
- Thread starter Tom Carlson
- Start date
RWK
I guess we need to change the way we describe OG.
OG currently means different things to people.
To me an order gatherer is a parasite sucking off the business, using any means possible, and doesn't have any regard for anyone.
We all gather orders of course, yet most of us don't do enough volume sales to earn rebates from WS.
Maybe we should call them POG = parasitic order gatherer and accompany the POG each time with the picture of a leech.
To be forthright I'm beginning to think it might just be the best practice to become and order gatherer, and join the club.
I had a conversation couple days ago about an OG that was doing an additional $80,000 per year from OG.
That isn't a big deal to some florists, but to others I would say it could be significant.
If you translate actual money earned. You could pay a years college for your kid wth the profits.
Remember senders don't raise their overhead to send orders. Once the website is built it just has to be maintained.
Senders don't have to:
1. Delivery vehicles
2 Liability insurance for operations and vehicles
3, Meet employee payrolls and pay workmans comp insurance
4. buy and maintain and support materials
5. maintain flower inventories
6. increase overhead to accomodate orders
They merely accept the internet order, paid by CC.
Forward the order to fill florists who have all the headaches and problems of delivering a half decent arrangement after the OG has sucked all the profit out of the transaction.
Yeah... I know we are all griping our heads off, and each week new OG are popping up online. There are websites you go to where you can buy a package to get you into the OG business in an afternoon. They have all the connections a neophyte needs to get with the program.
Sorry, folks... it is a fact, and our small little group of complaints is not going to change anything. I realize at some point they may run out of fill florists, because they have put them out of business. Sadly, they will probably have enough customers and a decent enough business model to gravitate to a boxes of wrapped flowers, etc.
The wholesales might actually start managing and delivering fill orders for them. I'd be willing to be this may already be happening in some parts of the country.
There is no loyalty to local florists for the most part by wholesalers any longer. When we go to wholesalers we stand in line to pay behind all the consumers with their kids in tow.
We still patronize several local wholesalers, but only because it is convenient for us. We now make every effort to fly in flowers from major distributors when we have enough volume to make it feasible. We do frequent the flower market, but all those wholesalers sell to the public as well. The market at least has enough respect for trade accounts to not let the consumers in until 8 AM. SO... from 4 am to 8 am it's only trade accounts in the markets.
Crummy subject to discusss, but it's a fact of life. It's like ObamaCare, no one that really cares wants it, but people with nothing to lose and parasites will embrace anything that is free or makes them money.
I guess we need to change the way we describe OG.
OG currently means different things to people.
To me an order gatherer is a parasite sucking off the business, using any means possible, and doesn't have any regard for anyone.
We all gather orders of course, yet most of us don't do enough volume sales to earn rebates from WS.
Maybe we should call them POG = parasitic order gatherer and accompany the POG each time with the picture of a leech.
To be forthright I'm beginning to think it might just be the best practice to become and order gatherer, and join the club.
I had a conversation couple days ago about an OG that was doing an additional $80,000 per year from OG.
That isn't a big deal to some florists, but to others I would say it could be significant.
If you translate actual money earned. You could pay a years college for your kid wth the profits.
Remember senders don't raise their overhead to send orders. Once the website is built it just has to be maintained.
Senders don't have to:
1. Delivery vehicles
2 Liability insurance for operations and vehicles
3, Meet employee payrolls and pay workmans comp insurance
4. buy and maintain and support materials
5. maintain flower inventories
6. increase overhead to accomodate orders
They merely accept the internet order, paid by CC.
Forward the order to fill florists who have all the headaches and problems of delivering a half decent arrangement after the OG has sucked all the profit out of the transaction.
Yeah... I know we are all griping our heads off, and each week new OG are popping up online. There are websites you go to where you can buy a package to get you into the OG business in an afternoon. They have all the connections a neophyte needs to get with the program.
Sorry, folks... it is a fact, and our small little group of complaints is not going to change anything. I realize at some point they may run out of fill florists, because they have put them out of business. Sadly, they will probably have enough customers and a decent enough business model to gravitate to a boxes of wrapped flowers, etc.
The wholesales might actually start managing and delivering fill orders for them. I'd be willing to be this may already be happening in some parts of the country.
There is no loyalty to local florists for the most part by wholesalers any longer. When we go to wholesalers we stand in line to pay behind all the consumers with their kids in tow.
We still patronize several local wholesalers, but only because it is convenient for us. We now make every effort to fly in flowers from major distributors when we have enough volume to make it feasible. We do frequent the flower market, but all those wholesalers sell to the public as well. The market at least has enough respect for trade accounts to not let the consumers in until 8 AM. SO... from 4 am to 8 am it's only trade accounts in the markets.
Crummy subject to discusss, but it's a fact of life. It's like ObamaCare, no one that really cares wants it, but people with nothing to lose and parasites will embrace anything that is free or makes them money.
Eric S
Demoted Webmaster
Concerned about the number of users that go to Proflowers website and then end up going to floristexpress.net?
In the last Two years 8.41% of proflowers unique vistors ventured down that road.
To me thats not that many but I'm sure its still a good amount of orders.
In the last Two years 8.41% of proflowers unique vistors ventured down that road.
To me thats not that many but I'm sure its still a good amount of orders.
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
I'd guess it at between 45,000 and 70,000 orders based on what I know about their volume...
At the time I dropped TF in Feb 2010 I had not seen a field rep in years, nor have standards been maintained since anyone with the $ can be a member.
The biggest B.S. lie they told us. No one can be a member unless they have a storefront location, and they "TF" had to personally check that out.
On the day the rep came to see us to make sure we had a physical location they brought their computer guru and ran us into the ground to buy the POS system. Whew! If we'd have done that we'd still be feeding that kittycat for the next 3-1/2 years. The contract for POS was binding and requires you maintain membership in TF as well. What a loaded crock of cannoli.
To be very honest, we like to believe you can trust people and have some faith in others. We bought an existing florist and had no idea that the vulture had spread it's wings over us at the very beginning. We stayed with TF for a little over 1 year... and we were absolutely counting the days until we had finally gotten that big black bird off our back.
Now the TF has a Savetheflorist website... more lies just to disarm the dummies that are too apathetic to really check things out.
As Eric S. reminds us frequently... what about TF affiliation with Proflowers? http://floristexpress.net
Is there a rat in the woodpile? You bet there is
The more people we tell and encourage to act; the faster our industry becomes our own again.
On the day the rep came to see us to make sure we had a physical location they brought their computer guru and ran us into the ground to buy the POS system. Whew! If we'd have done that we'd still be feeding that kittycat for the next 3-1/2 years. The contract for POS was binding and requires you maintain membership in TF as well. What a loaded crock of cannoli.
To be very honest, we like to believe you can trust people and have some faith in others. We bought an existing florist and had no idea that the vulture had spread it's wings over us at the very beginning. We stayed with TF for a little over 1 year... and we were absolutely counting the days until we had finally gotten that big black bird off our back.
Now the TF has a Savetheflorist website... more lies just to disarm the dummies that are too apathetic to really check things out.
As Eric S. reminds us frequently... what about TF affiliation with Proflowers? http://floristexpress.net
Is there a rat in the woodpile? You bet there is
The more people we tell and encourage to act; the faster our industry becomes our own again.
Eric S
Demoted Webmaster
I have been told many times by our rep that we could continue to operate our POS, continue to pay for support and have credit cards cleared without being TF members.
mikec
New Member
And We were told that We couldn't continue with Teleflora support and credit card processinig. Not that it matters since We have made a much better investment in a Strider website and using Floristware.
The contract copy we have (we didn't sign) from TF requires continued membership in TF during term of POS contract.
It doesn't surprise me that you have something different. Makes me wonder how many deals are out there. LOL
It doesn't surprise me that you have something different. Makes me wonder how many deals are out there. LOL
Doug Munro
Well-Known Member
Spoken like a true OG hater. I don't want to confuse you with any facts as it appears that you already have your mind made up on this. However.....
1. Delivery vehicles - No.... An OG does not require vehicles. That one you have right
2 Liability insurance for operations and vehicles - No an OG does not have liability insurance on vehicles ( see point 1) however they certainly need to insure their operation just as any business does. They may not have inventory but generally if they are of any size they require furniture, workstations, etc. Remember it is a business
3, Meet employee payrolls and pay workmans comp insurance - LOL, what is your concept of an order gatherer? A lone computer sitting in a closet receiving and sending orders via the internet and phone with the owner sitting in an office somewhere counting the cash. Of course they have payrolls and incur payroll associated costs. The fact is that people are required to take and process orders in the flower business.
4. Buy and maintain and support materials - In today's world, a successful OG is typically investing heavily in technology, website development, software, and training to stay ahead of the competition.
5. Maintain flower inventories - No, An OG does not need to maintain flower inventories. Thats one more right for you. ( that's 2 right for you so far in case you have lost count)
6. increase overhead to accommodate orders - I assume that here you are referring to accommodate "increased orders", if so the fact is that like anyone in the flowers business when order volume increases an OG requires more labor and costs in general go up. Or maybe you feel an OG just sets up one more computer in the closet and counts additional incoming revenue? (see point 3 above)
Now here is a couple of points to ponder that you seemed to have missed
7) Advertising Costs - Most OG's invest heavily in advertising, by heavily I mean real heavy. I can recall listening to Michael Soenan of FTD speak and quoting an acquisition cost per order in the $25.00 range for FTD.com. The reality is that if every retail florist had a $25.00 acquisition cost on every order they processed there would be no retail florists.
8) Credit Card Costs - Every order an OG takes is paid by credit card, to make matters worse every order is treated as a "Card Not Present" transaction by the banks who happily penalize the OG for this through a higher percentage rate to clear cards. This results in an OG generally paying a higher rate overall than your typical florist who still takes in a percentage of sales through cash and in-house accounts even if the OG has negotiated a better volume rate.
9) CC Chargebacks - Card not present CC transactions have a far higher rate of charge backs than the typical walk in customer that visits a florist. Add to this the fact that an order on the internet has a greater potential of fraud that is experienced face to face.
I do not point all of the above for any reason other than to maybe open some eyes to the fact that any business is a struggle and never as easy as it appears from the outside.
Every business has some overhead, and expenses. No one denys that.
Obviously, you must be an OG and yes I have complete disdain for OG.
I could be in the OG business practically overnight. I can build my own e-commerce OG site and do it for practically nothing. I have a phone and CC processing is in place.
At some point many of us may have to be OG to survive, because each day more and more OG appear on the search engines.
You appear to be a florist that does OG... a guess. I don't place florists that do OG into the same box with the "fromyou" OG that are strictly OG.
You may have a shop and may actually make an effort to be honest, and try to deliver a value for the money received. If that is the case, good for you.
Your kind of business may actually be the only surviving brick and mortat florists in the future.
You won't open my eyes, because they are already open to the rascals doing OG as their only business along with their WS partners.
Obviously, you must be an OG and yes I have complete disdain for OG.
I could be in the OG business practically overnight. I can build my own e-commerce OG site and do it for practically nothing. I have a phone and CC processing is in place.
At some point many of us may have to be OG to survive, because each day more and more OG appear on the search engines.
You appear to be a florist that does OG... a guess. I don't place florists that do OG into the same box with the "fromyou" OG that are strictly OG.
You may have a shop and may actually make an effort to be honest, and try to deliver a value for the money received. If that is the case, good for you.
Your kind of business may actually be the only surviving brick and mortat florists in the future.
You won't open my eyes, because they are already open to the rascals doing OG as their only business along with their WS partners.
lori042499
Well-Known Member
- May 3, 2006
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Dom,
Your answers to Ricky were right on..Og's do have overhead they just have different overhead than we do...The delivery one is big, but big only because so many florists still operate delivery center at a loss instead of it being a profit center...
The other is the flowers, a perishable item. This is a huge area of mismanagement in many shops...again a problem with non-business minded shops...
Advertising and marketing as we know are very expensive and wages are very expensive...this is the the biggest area of the business with the least emphasis in many florists, this is where we all go very very wrong...and as the og's started showing up in our phonebooks, we started retreating and as the grocery stores started showing more lower priced options in their stores we started retreating, and as online florists started offering deals and discounts we dug our heals in and retreated saying if they want us they will pay for us we cannot compete...and so we stopped competeting because we didn't understand that part of the biz, we never needed to...and so we just didn't...and now those of us that are willing to learn have to and we make mistakes but at least we try...
Your answers to Ricky were right on..Og's do have overhead they just have different overhead than we do...The delivery one is big, but big only because so many florists still operate delivery center at a loss instead of it being a profit center...
The other is the flowers, a perishable item. This is a huge area of mismanagement in many shops...again a problem with non-business minded shops...
Advertising and marketing as we know are very expensive and wages are very expensive...this is the the biggest area of the business with the least emphasis in many florists, this is where we all go very very wrong...and as the og's started showing up in our phonebooks, we started retreating and as the grocery stores started showing more lower priced options in their stores we started retreating, and as online florists started offering deals and discounts we dug our heals in and retreated saying if they want us they will pay for us we cannot compete...and so we stopped competeting because we didn't understand that part of the biz, we never needed to...and so we just didn't...and now those of us that are willing to learn have to and we make mistakes but at least we try...
Let me add some perspective, as it seems you aren't familiar with Doug's business.
He oversees ~80 franchise retail florists across Canada, most of whom have a heavy focus on walk-in traffic. They also operate a call centre designed to drive orders to their franchises.
Doug is intimately familiar with both the retail operations of a florist and marketing to get orders.
I find this very amusing
Yes, anyone can get into the OG business ... I'd love to see you become a successful OG overnight :tongue:
To survive and thrive you must constantly be mindful of competition. Flowers for the most part is price point product.
I recall the past mother's day (Sunday). I live in a heavily populated moderately affluent area. This is fact.. no exaggeration.
I went into local chain grocery that has appx 1,000 sq ft department dedicated to flowers. They had pre-arranged and cut flowers assembled.
At 7:30 AM they had 4 register lines open (usually 1 in mornings) there were people standing 25-30 deep in each line holding flowers for checkout.
I stood there for over 15 minutes and just watched. I left about 20 minutes later and the lines were even longer as the clock advanced.
Yes, I'm sure I must have been there at a peak moment. Over 50 bundles of cut lillies wrapped in cellophane definitely emptied the shelf in the time I was there.
Yes, the arrangements they were buying were mediocre at best. I think most people are basically of the mindset that flowers are flowers, that has got to be the reason for 1800 and Proflower success. I have frequently delivered flowers on busy days and this is fact.... I've never had anyone say, " WHat a lousy bouquet".
Recipients are just glad for the sentiment, and aren't too interested in anything else. Sure there are exceptions to this, but I wonder if it makes that much difference except to persons who are well educated about flowers to know what they are getting.
You have got to find a niche and become viable in it. So many little sales opportunities for selling flowers are slipping away everyday to the large chains, OG, and wholesalers who don't discriminate among buyers.
I was in a large wholesaler trying to pick up a dozen bundles of Callas, and dozen bundles of Peonies. I was standing in line behind a mom with her two kids, a lady whose credit card wasn't swiping well enough to transact, and a couple of lttile old ladies waiting their turn. The cooler was full of people trying to make up their minds. I couldn't just pick up what I wanted and leave, because the wholesaler requires an employee box everything before going to the register. To be honest, I'd rather the wholesaler just admit they sell to the public (we all know it) and open up a "to the trade" counter for florists. At least we could get back to work faster.
Things are really changing in the floral industry, and I think it's important we share things to try to stay on top of things. Bickering among ourselves, well it can have value or not dependent mostly upon our attitudes.
I recall the past mother's day (Sunday). I live in a heavily populated moderately affluent area. This is fact.. no exaggeration.
I went into local chain grocery that has appx 1,000 sq ft department dedicated to flowers. They had pre-arranged and cut flowers assembled.
At 7:30 AM they had 4 register lines open (usually 1 in mornings) there were people standing 25-30 deep in each line holding flowers for checkout.
I stood there for over 15 minutes and just watched. I left about 20 minutes later and the lines were even longer as the clock advanced.
Yes, I'm sure I must have been there at a peak moment. Over 50 bundles of cut lillies wrapped in cellophane definitely emptied the shelf in the time I was there.
Yes, the arrangements they were buying were mediocre at best. I think most people are basically of the mindset that flowers are flowers, that has got to be the reason for 1800 and Proflower success. I have frequently delivered flowers on busy days and this is fact.... I've never had anyone say, " WHat a lousy bouquet".
Recipients are just glad for the sentiment, and aren't too interested in anything else. Sure there are exceptions to this, but I wonder if it makes that much difference except to persons who are well educated about flowers to know what they are getting.
You have got to find a niche and become viable in it. So many little sales opportunities for selling flowers are slipping away everyday to the large chains, OG, and wholesalers who don't discriminate among buyers.
I was in a large wholesaler trying to pick up a dozen bundles of Callas, and dozen bundles of Peonies. I was standing in line behind a mom with her two kids, a lady whose credit card wasn't swiping well enough to transact, and a couple of lttile old ladies waiting their turn. The cooler was full of people trying to make up their minds. I couldn't just pick up what I wanted and leave, because the wholesaler requires an employee box everything before going to the register. To be honest, I'd rather the wholesaler just admit they sell to the public (we all know it) and open up a "to the trade" counter for florists. At least we could get back to work faster.
Things are really changing in the floral industry, and I think it's important we share things to try to stay on top of things. Bickering among ourselves, well it can have value or not dependent mostly upon our attitudes.
lori042499
Well-Known Member
- May 3, 2006
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This is a major part of how I have evolved from a florist with my head planted firmly in the sand, to someone who has looked around and saw what needed new thinking...these arguments and bickering as you call it allow me to see other views instead of the same old that I have seen for the last 25 years....you are right, it is all about attitude, I try to keep an open mind, I try to apply the concepts that I can comprehend, I try to stick with them until I can deem if the work or not...I can say that my marketing techniques are more refined since I opened in 2006 and my business acumen and tacticts have grown, all because I am learning from my interactions here and sometimes it takes someone hammering their views into my head a few times before I am receptive to it....
anytimeflowers
Linda
You are absolutely right on target. And the niche depends on your business model, wouldn't you agree?
I find this very amusing
Yes, anyone can get into the OG business ... I'd love to see you become a successful OG overnight :tongue:
Why do you think I said, "practically"? You are so sure of yourself to articulate something I didn't say.
Heck, if I put up a site and became an OG you would still have an out, because successful would have to be based on your criteria... right?
I may very well have to accept your challenge om the future, because from a previous posting I mentioned OG may be the only best future for florists.
From your posting I gather OG is not objectionable, since you laud the practices of Munro. Maybe, I should change my view of OG, since people that are in the industry with some clout, as yourself, just don't seem concerned.
In fact, you challenged me to become an OG. If I did that I certainly wouldn't make it known. I'd just slide in and take what I could from the unsuspecting fill florists as OG currently do.
I don't regret getting off on you on this posting. Maybe you should let your brain think abit before you start cranking out the verbiage. I'm sure over time I'll make equally stupid responses as yours, and I can expect a similar response or maybe I should say deserve similar responses. I hope I"ll be able to moderate my feelings enough to accept or ignore the responses that chastise me for my mistakes. LOL
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
Hi, just wondering what is your niche? Mine "was" 70-80c wrapped roses @$12.99 dozen before the grocery stores selling them. I am on a street between 2 grocery stores selling lots of flowers. Cello wrap roses, 1 dz $9.99 at safeway. I now sell 1 dz long stem wrapped color roses for $18.99 dz & red roses for $22.99. If bb & greens are added i charge $8 more, includes 3 stems bb & 8-10 pcs of grs. I don't sell alot of wrapped roses anymore. So what is the niche for you now & others, i would like to know. I sometimes say we are the home of the $20 bouquet! Lol!!! Every order helps though. So what is everybodies niches?
Doug Munro
Well-Known Member
First I just want to say (as I have on previous occasion) that for the most part all of us are order gatherers to some degree. Our own companies reasons behind generating orders is for the benefit of our own stores who ultimately fill them. We invest the time and money to generate on-line orders so that they can go about the business of running their stores without the need to become e-commerce experts.
At least that was our original concept, we have evolved somewhat as we found that if we did not provide delivery outside of the locations that we had stores in we had to turn down many customers and potentially lost any future business from them that may have in fact went to one of our stores. That is why initially we became a Redbook member, then a Teleflora, then finally an FTD member.
Like everyone else on this board we are simply working hard to build and maintain a business in a rapidly changing industry and economic climate.
Having said that I will now say that I have no sympathy for those that whine about the past and how we need to take this industry back to how things were when "real" florists didn't have OG's or supermarkets to compete with. Quite frankly I would like to take things back to the days when draft beer was $0.10 a glass and gasoline was $0.25 a gallon! Unfortunately my chances of accomplishing that are about equal to rolling back the clock on our industry.
The bottom line is that it is not our "clock" to turn back, the changes have occurred due to changing technology and consumer trends. I will never suggest that deceptive advertising or business practices should be condoned or have anything but a negative effect on the flower industry. What I will say is that like in any industry what goes around comes around and generally being deceptive with the consumer does not pay off in the long run.
So in a nutshell, to those that want to whine. How about getting out of the way so that the rest of us in the flower industry can move on and continue to change with the times without continuously hear you complain about how we are ruining "your" industry.
At least that was our original concept, we have evolved somewhat as we found that if we did not provide delivery outside of the locations that we had stores in we had to turn down many customers and potentially lost any future business from them that may have in fact went to one of our stores. That is why initially we became a Redbook member, then a Teleflora, then finally an FTD member.
Like everyone else on this board we are simply working hard to build and maintain a business in a rapidly changing industry and economic climate.
Having said that I will now say that I have no sympathy for those that whine about the past and how we need to take this industry back to how things were when "real" florists didn't have OG's or supermarkets to compete with. Quite frankly I would like to take things back to the days when draft beer was $0.10 a glass and gasoline was $0.25 a gallon! Unfortunately my chances of accomplishing that are about equal to rolling back the clock on our industry.
The bottom line is that it is not our "clock" to turn back, the changes have occurred due to changing technology and consumer trends. I will never suggest that deceptive advertising or business practices should be condoned or have anything but a negative effect on the flower industry. What I will say is that like in any industry what goes around comes around and generally being deceptive with the consumer does not pay off in the long run.
So in a nutshell, to those that want to whine. How about getting out of the way so that the rest of us in the flower industry can move on and continue to change with the times without continuously hear you complain about how we are ruining "your" industry.