RE: Order Gatherer Websites

[Gigi]

Griff, I don't think you are telling me to give up or to shut up because it is never going to change with florists.

Griff, IT IS CHANGING. Not fast enough, but every day another florist becomse enlightened.


We've been "enlightened" since 2000!

Gigi

 

[Dazeal]

You're right Tom, there are still those who don't know. I am glad you still have strength; I find myself too worn out to get up on that soap box most of the time. I'm 100% behind you and you have my vote for president 2008.

 

[Joe Mioux]

Joe, I certainly enjoy dialog with you. You keep it sensible and clean.

Joe, do you really need someone to give you facts? Can't you see them for yourself?

Ask the wholesalers whether or not florists are doing well financially. I have gone through some tight times. It has not been easy. But I get things fixed when I am willing to make changes.

As I have mentioned, Some florists have asked me to help them with their General Ledger Chart of Accounts so that they can readily find out where they are making money and where they are losing money. I can honestly tell you that many don't know or have any idea of what is going with the wire service side of their business. Those are my facts.

PLease note my PS that relates to accounting.

Another fact comes from Marketing 101. You would not find an economist to try to convince you why you should be paying dues and fees to a competitor. It does not make economic sense. Those are the facts.

If I put money into an advertising fund, I want to make sure that a very high percentage of those dollars end up promoting flower buyers to come to my store, come to my website, call my phone number. Do you have any idea of how the wire service is spending it's ad dollars? Don't you suspect that some of it goes to perks for the top 100? Take an example some of the charities that you and I are asked to donate to. There is proof that the head executives are getting huge salaries and that is not what I call charity.

True, Griff and I are on the outside being wire service free. But I can say that has an advantage. We are not blinded by the forest that WS members are standing in. We have a perspective from the outside.

I talked to an ex Teleflora Rep last week. He lives in our city, I go by his house on the way to my daughter's home. He said, "Tom, I had to get out. When I saw what was going on, I could not in good conscience walk into a florist and push what I was being told to do."

He got out about 3 or 4 years ago when things were not as bad as they are today, or at least when they were not being talked about like they are today. He got out when it was relatively quiet.

Now I am going to respond to Griff's post next.

Tom Carlson

PS When I became totally bar coded in my store I was able to see immediately that I was heading for deep trouble. I had $299,000 in inventory. But now I could classify my inventory into 171 inventory groups to match with 171 revenue groups. I was into collectibles among other things [gifts] and my employees were begging for money to buy all the new Department 56 issues. And I had 34 months worth of Department 56 inventory. Now I have none. Was it easy? No. It took some hard moves to correct that inventory. Today my total inventory is less than half of that. I wish all florists could have all their hard goods bar coded for making sensible buying decisions.
end of PS

Hi Tom:

Here are my facts. Total, in and out, WS business costs me 17 pct. WS business as a percent of Gross Sales hovers around 10 pct of my total business. So it isn't a huge issue for me.

I don't need to ask wholesalers how flower shops are doing. I know how most are doing. I grow plants for other shops and I hear what they are saying and what other shops are telling them.

You're economist comment makes me giggle.... My degree is in Agricutural Economics.

Ad dollars going to top 100.... relating back to Micro-economics, it is pretty low on my Indifference Curve.

Since you and Griff are both on the outside, how can you know how many WS orders are generated florist to florist vs OG to florist? You can't.

This is where my annectodal evidence is important. The non-WS florists have a very loud voice, while many WS florists may be affraid to speak up out of fear that they maybe called stupid by some Non-WS florists. Call me a Devils Advocate, but at least I am presenting a point that is based my real experience, not just speculation.

Joe

PS. Now to your inventory issues....

That has nothing to do with WS membership just good business decisions based on Cost of Carry charges.

Tom, I am a florist and greenhouse grower/owner. When I visit other flower shops and see the inventory some stores have I almost faint. I can't imagine people tying up money on stuff that doesn't turn over a couple times a year, at worst.

For me, I don't get into that collectible stuff unless I can stick a flower in it. That is why I just got some Fenton glass in. I don't want to get big into it, but I do want some nice glass. Awhile back some WI florist was interviewed in some trade publication and he spoke about being a Florist and selling flowers only and not all the other stuff that ties up money. It was a good article!

That might be a good topic for another thread sometime....the Opportunity Costs of certain departments. Food for thought....

 

[Tom Carlson]

Joe, you wrote "Hi Tom:
Here are my facts. Total, in and out, WS business costs me 17 pct. WS business as a percent of Gross Sales hovers around 10 pct of my total business. So it isn't a huge issue for me. END QUOTE

Joe, so I don't spout off half-cocked, would you mind revealing how you come up with 17%. I am not doubting you and am assuming that might be a net figure including income and expenses on both wires in and out. If you don't want to post it, here is my e-mail [email protected].

My accounting classes are quite dated, 1951-2 but I don't think the basic rules of accounting have changed.

Joe, I was raised in a wholesale pot plant business, so we have some common roots. I don't envy you one bit. Retailers need our plant growers 52 weeks a year and then along comes Home Depot selling 6" poinsettias the day after Thanksgiving and I bought 480 for $1.88, delivered. Sold them for $10 to $20 each.

TO QUOTE YOU: "Since you and Griff are both on the outside, how can you know how many WS orders are generated florist to florist vs OG to florist? You can't." END QUOTE

There are a lot of statistics out there, especially from FTD, about how their sales are divided between florists and non-florist. Wouldn't that give a pretty good clue?

The number of orders that I get FD are almost immeasureable, but they are increasing 2 and 3 fold. That's a clue, not significant numbers, but a sense of what is happening.

I've mentioned before that my outgoing orders are increasing, not as fast as my local business, but never the less it says that florists can compete against the Internet.

 

[Joe Mioux]

Tom:

The 17 pct is based on all my outgoing commissions minus all the wire service fees minus the 27 pct commission expense assessed against the order.

20 pct in 20 pct out, 7 pct given up, membership expenses = 17 pct of my ws business. Nothing magical about it.....

Tom, there is no need for accounting methods here, just good old addition and subtraction .... and then some division against gross sales.

Tom, with regards to FTD, they are not going to change. I suspect they in the next couple years that they will become even more competitive against traditional flowers shops. We as florists can not control the powers at FTD.


When FTD becomes unfeasible I will drop out at the second shop, I dropped FTD at the main store in Oct 2005, after 52 years.

Same way with TF, if TF becomes a liability to me I will drop one or both memberships. Until that time I am in.....

I try to base my business decisions on revenue and expenses, not feelings.

Joe

 

[Griff]

Griff,

Please give solid factual evidence for every assertion in your post.

It all sounds pro-florist, but where are the facts to back up your thesis?

Since you are a non-WS member, how can you accurately define what today's WS-member florists experience? How do you know who sends what to whom? Since you don't participate you can't. You may have in the past but your experience is going to be different from others.

The picture you paint of WS-member florists is so so so far removed from my reality.

Your latest post appears to based on feelings and innuendo.

I want to hear logic based on facts, not assumptions.

Joe

OK, Joe, which paragraph do you NOT think is truthful? Be more than happy to discuss the facts on any of the aspects mentioned. You don't have to be a WS member to understand what's going on. All you have to do is read these boards. The florists themselves have been telling us these facts for several years. It is not a thesis and it isn't based on innuendo.

 

[Joe Mioux]

Griff:

Sitting in front of computer and reading complaints about WS doesn't make the information conveyed in one's post accurate.

There is a difference between accuracy and truthfulness.

I have several times brought up annectodal evidence regarding my business and you nor anyone else have responded to those comments.

I receive far more incoming WS orders from regular flower shops than I do OG's. The florists that are in my community never bring up your issue that OG's ruining the floral business.

I am just basing my comments on my real business life experiences and hopefully providing some balance to your and others position.

Joe

 

[mlou]

...I receive far more incoming WS orders from regular flower shops than I do OG's. The florists that are in my community never bring up your issue that OG's ruining the floral business...Joe

Boy, I hear that statement from most of the florists I talk to...especially here in Houston.
.

 

[Griff]

Griff:

Sitting in front of computer and reading complaints about WS doesn't make the information conveyed in one's post accurate.

There is a difference between accuracy and truthfulness.

I have several times brought up annectodal evidence regarding my business and you nor anyone else have responded to those comments.

I receive far more incoming WS orders from regular flower shops than I do OG's. The florists that are in my community never bring up your issue that OG's ruining the floral business.

I am just basing my comments on my real business life experiences and hopefully providing some balance to your and others position.

Joe

Joe, I've been reading these boards for over 5 years now and as I have said before I was a member of either FTD, TF or AFS at one time or another in the first 14 years of my business. I have never based any of my comments or conclusions on the postings of florists just venting. When several florists post that they have invested in an Eagle system and they can't get out of a lease or the WS is not going to allow them transfer their CC business to an outside vendor, I accept that as fact. If florists are openly talking about the various platforms that each Ws computer system operates on and these platforms are incompatable with each other, then that means that they can't talk to each other. If they can't communicate with other florists unless they are operating within the same system, then those same florists are "trapped" within that system. Their sending system will not operate outside the WS environment. The data base quarterly upgrades have to be provided first from the WS and then in the format to work with even the independent's hardware. There are several other things that make it impossible for a large number of florists to ever leave the WS. This is fact and not speculation. At the same time, the smaller florists are not trapped because their volumn of wire business or investment in equipment is minimal. Hense we spend alot more time talking to smaller florists.

As I have said before, if you feel that your numbers support you staying with your wire services, that's fine. But I also don't consider your numbers to be consistant with most florists. When I left the WS, I was averaging about 30 orders out a month. Florists in larger towns just 15 miles East of here were sending 60 and 70 orders out per month. I disagree with your appoach to "bundle" all the expenses connected with the WS orders and conclude that the actual cost is only 17 percent. You math might be correct, but the number doesn't tell you much. Is 17% a good number or is too high or too low. There is no reference. For example, if my total advertising expense for my business is supposed to be 10%, then isn't 17% too high for only 10% of your total business. Wire ins and outs are two completely different categories and the values should be kept separately and the respective costs of each should be accounted for separately. Afterall, based on your method, the end percent will vary considerably based on the actual volumn of outgoing vs incoming.

As florists are located further and further away from major metropolitan areas, it is not surprising the less concern that florists will have about OG's and OGing. However, OGing is about taking a full value order from one florist and turning it into a discounted order for another florist. Joe, you and your florists should also be concerned. In my little town I may have as many as 6 or 7 OG's when we do a internet search as well as the various OG's listed in our phone book. May I remind you that the vast majority of these OG are REAL FLORISTS that have adopted this marketing approach. Those real florists are going to send you florist to florist orders. Even in your town of Carlyle and Breese, you are not immuned. Local search shows two florists NOT in your area. One is Krupp Florist which is easily 25 miles away and Blossom Florists whose website states that they have been serving the Carlyle and Breese and surrounding area for 30 years. NO ADDRESS OR NO LOCATION. These florists are OGING! Take just 2 orders a week out of your area and then feed them back as wire ins and that's a loss of over $1400 annually in sales. And you only have two OG's. I have 6 or 7 and the florists East of here may have 10 or 12. The numbers grow as you get closer to the major population centers and the loss in sales is much greater when you play with larger numbers of orders converted.

TODAY no florist has any way of knowing for certain whether the order they receive was sent to them routinely from a real florist, a pure OG or an OG real florist. The WS have even helped some of their membership create some of these florist OG websites as they know it helps the WS business. Now, Joe before you jump up an down and say that is innuendo or just assumption on my part, the answer is NO! I have spent considerable time looking at many of the REAL FLORISTS OG's and a good portion are WS timplates that have been modified to remove the specific local information and list only an 800 number. That's not by accident.

Now, Joe, I have no way of knowing whether you are OGing or not, but some of the people that you have been standing next to are! Their agendas are completely geared to convincing florists that filling orders is good and rejecting is bad. Afterall, it is only a couple of orders and your designer doesn't have anything to do right know anyway. - right? Continuing to provide the pathway for florists to convert full value local business into discounted business is a cancer and it is slowing eating away florists. Twenty- eight thousand + down to roughly 22,000. If that is not being attacked by a disease, then what would you like to call it?

 

[Joe Mioux]

Griff:

Do you have a real name?

First, if one belongs to a WS they receive the benefit of sending plus the burden of accepting. It is all one department and you can not account for one segment of the WS business without accounting for the other.

Now, how do you define your business. It appears that you are an OG. In previous threads you told us that you send orders out for a fee, but rarely receive any. In addition, you charge full value for your incoming orders which is a deterent for a sending florist trying to fulfill an order in South Elgin. So how is your operation different from a "sending only" operation. I truly am curious and not trying to be a "wiseguy".

Krupp Florist is a wholesale plant customer of mine. I, as well as my family, have known their family for many years. I will query Mark Yung, the current owner on your point. They are a fine family and a good florist.

I have know idea who Blossom Florist is. Do you have any ideas?

Joe

 

[BOSS]

I have know idea who Blossom Florist is. Do you have any ideas?

Joe

Blossom Florist...IS NOT a "florist"... Blossoms is just one of the many fake names that Kay's in Belaire TX operates under. Kay's is also not a florist, but a phone bank in Belaire. They are connected to a shop, Kelly's in the same city, operated by a daughter.

They have been caught skimming on numerous occassions and to date, the WS they use most has not done anything to combat this deception.

You can read about it here and the skimming here where there is hard evidence of the skimming I reffered to, based on customer receipts and Mercury Order transmission copies.

 

[Griff]

BOSS, and how does Kay's send out their orders? Are they a member of both WS or are the orders sent out through Kelly's flower shop??

 

[BOSS]

I know they go thru FTD, someone else will have to check the TF book...based on their image use, I would say both.

They send out as Kays, Abbotts, Kelly's, Blossom, Jody's and more far as I know. On the Floristdetective page I listed below, you'll notice the test orders that FloristDetective ran were placed on the Jody's flowers and Abbott's Flowers websites (receipts from the) and both were transmitted via Kay's....

I'm sure this is done to consolidate the order volume under one name (Kay's) making them an FTD Top Member (est. 30K+ orders).

 

[Griff]

Griff:

I receive far more incoming WS orders from regular flower shops than I do OG's. The florists that are in my community never bring up your issue that OG's ruining the floral business

Joe

Hey, Joe, doesn't Kay's, Kelly's, Abbott's, Jody's and Blossoms all sound like real florists to you?? Based on Floristdetective, these orders are sent through FTD and most probably TF too. Even the WS consider Kay's and Blossoms as FLORISTS. And who are we to ever question a WIRE SERVICE. Afterall, whatever they tell us must be the truth - and we are only looking for the truth aren't we?

 

[Griff]

Kay's....
I'm sure this is done to consolidate the order volume under one name (Kay's) making them an FTD Top Member (est. 30K+ orders).

This question is for BOSS or anyone that wishes to respond. A reported 30,000 orders that are OG'd by Kay's. Why should florists even care? it is such a small number. 30,000 orders spread over 20,000 florists a YEAR is only 1 and 1/2 orders a year. Who cares how they got the orders. What's the big deal?????

 

[Rhonda]

Griff, because they send low ball orders, no delivery charges, ususally refuse to send a price change AND they do skim orders. They also purport themselves to BE a Real Florist in MY town. Yes, they have skimmed an order to me. I refused their orders after that and when they called and questioned why, I told them point blank. The lady who called was very rude and down right nasty. Told her not to call or send an order through me again. I am the only FTD shop in this tri-town area.

 

[Tom Carlson]

I have know idea who Blossom Florist is. Do you have any ideas?

Joe

Joe, if you or any other florists doesn't know who Blossom Florist is, how can it be said that "we don't fill any OG orders"?

Just wondering how WS members screen their incoming orders for OGs and how much time does that process take? Not being a WS member I do not have a clue.

Tom Carlson

ps: Griff is a real florist and face to face I call him "Griff" and he answers so that must be his real name. Griff is the furtherest thing from being an OG. And I enjoy his probing questions.

 

[Griff]

My full name is Bill Griffin. I have a younger brother and when my father was a live, we were all nicknamed Griff. My mother felt she had at least a one in three chance if she called out, "Griff, will you take out the garbage?"

Rhonda, I know how you feel about Blossoms in your area, but how about Flowerhand.com serving E. Millinocket and Samedaydelivery.com for same day delivery in Millinocket. I assume those are also florists. Why should any of us care if these FLORISTS happen to get a couple of orders through the internet and send us some incoming business. Don't we at least get some MARGINAL PROFIT GAIN from those orders?? Just trying to get to the heart of the issue, Rhonda.

 

[BOSS]

This question is for BOSS or anyone that wishes to respond. A reported 30,000 orders that are OG'd by Kay's. Why should florists even care? it is such a small number. 30,000 orders spread over 20,000 florists a YEAR is only 1 and 1/2 orders a year. Who cares how they got the orders. What's the big deal?????

Now Mr. G. .....you baiting me? I think you already know my answer... yes 30K spread across 20K is a low number, but remember Kay's is only one of an endless supply of the same....

The reason I care, is simply because of a non-local advertising in my local market, and skimming orders. I wonder how many marginal shops might not be if they had the full volume in their local market, and there were no OG's in the mix for any of us.

And to answer Tom's question about "order screening"....with MAS it's very simple, once you identify a bogus sender you can simply go into that florists information and mark them as a DO NOT ACCEPT....takes no time at all...a simple flip of a screen gives all the info necessary...

 

[Joe Mioux]

Joe, if you or any other florists doesn't know who Blossom Florist is, how can it be said that "we don't fill any OG orders"?

I don't recall saying how I handled OG orders. Have I ever said I don't fill OG orders? Have I ever said I do?

I have never received an order from them so that is why I don't know who they are.

Generally, incoming FTD Merc orders that do not have a name associated with the FTD member number on the ticket is generally considered by us as an .com order. Certain FTD membeship numbers can not be looked up on the directory, so we have no way of knowing who these businesses are.

So with this in mind, I probably do fill .com or "OG" orders.

Joe