RE: Order Gatherer Websites

[Joe Mioux]

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Consumers are not hiring immigrants, business owners are. Therefore, the ratio of business owners hiring immigrants to consumers is very, very low.

Businesses are comprised of people and those people are consumers of a labor need. The business consumer reacts to their consumers needs based on their demands. So your "consumer" (retail consumer) is causing the demand for immigrants.

 

[Joe Mioux]

When consumers get mad about immigration, their best weapon would be to boycott anything made available to them by immigrants. The immigrants would soon have no work and would have to go home sooner or later.

Tom, do you purchase imported flowers? Immigration v importation...

I submit what is the difference?

Joe

 

[Joe Mioux]

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Florists are the consumers of the services of FTD, TF and 1800. When florists get mad enough to boycott the WS, they too will go away.

Hence my original question, "Why aren't all you WS members livid, outraged, angry, mad, upset with the WS for allowing the enormous number of OG websites?"

Someone else brought up the immigration subject, and as long as they did:

There is a good side to Immigrants, they perform services that US citizens are not willing to do. The immigrant who clears the table where I have breakfast is making $8 and hour and I thank him for being there so I can have breakfast.

Would we buy plants and cutflowers at the prices we like to pay if it were not for immigrants? Would consumers buy roses from a shop that buys only from growers who do not hire immigrants?

As far as I am concerned, the hourly wage should not have to be an issue. There should not be any illegal immigrants. The legal immigrants should get the same pay anyone would get.

The point is that Immigrants are willing to do tasks that others will not do. They should get the going hourly rate and they should be legal.

Please elaborate... I am confused with this last section.

Thank you.
Joe

 

[Griff]

Getting back on track

Oh, that's easy as far as I'm concerned. It is because I have considered (and continue to consider) the pluses and minuses of staying "married" to a WS(s) and, wrongly or rightly, have so far concluded that the pluses outweigh the minuses.

Now, here comes the interesting part...

To be angry at a WS with whom I have decided to stay married, I would have to contradict myself: contradiction between rational reasoning (plus outweighs minus) and emotions (angry, dislike). You know that no man can tolerate that (I'm a guy). Usually humans, especially males, are afraid of being seen self-contradictory (most vigorous, persistent debaters here are, I suspect, males; females on the other hand seem to be able to handle a contradiction between practicality and emotions better).

OK, if you are a woman, try questioning the wisdom of the last purchase your husband/boyfriend have made, and you will know what I'm talking about. Even if he actually didn't like what he bought, he wont' say it so. Humans (particularly males) prefer rational consistency to emotional contradictions; where no such consistency actually exists, we even manufacture it to relieve ourselves from distress.

Yes, I do want to believe that, by staying with WS, I've made a right decision. To be honest, I don't want to even think about a possibility (yes, it's possible) that I've made a wrong decision. It's not good for my ego. Being a small-business owner, I don't have anyone who massages my ego, so I have to do it by myself, for example by writing here. Thus, I "cannot" afford to be angry, as long as I'm a member of WS and a human male.

Well, we'll try one more time to get back on the subject of the thread.

So Mr Goldfish, you boil this all down to ego. You may be right. Interesting analogy about being "married to a WS". Last time I looked the divorse rate in this country was still about 50% so in THAT relationship either one sprouse or both felt the it was best to end it. Yet in discussing the relationship of florists and their WS it comes down to doing what makes the florists feel good. Based on what you are saying, it doesn't matter what the business numbers are or the fact that the WS isn't going in the same direction as the florist or the cost outweighs any benfits, the net result is if the florist still feels good about the original decision to join that specific WS, they will probably stay there. I AGREE!!!

I agree for several reasons. Not only from the ego part, but from the aspect that most new shops are started by people who were designers for other shops and they now decide to go on there own. If the shop they trained in had one WS, they will probably have the same one. If they came from a shop that had multiply WS, they too will mostly likely have more than one. For a second or third generation florist that is either starting a shop of their own or taking over the family business, there is never a question in their mind about whether to have or not to have a WS. My Dad had one, my Grandfatther had one, so I NEED one. If you purchased an existing flower shop and they had either one or multiple WS, the new owner may cut away one of the WS, but never both. I'm sure that someone can point out exceptions, but these generalities pretty much typify the industry. Florists believe they have made the right decision based on historical basis, rather than a currrent factual basis. In other words, even if there is only one other flower shop in your town, as the new florist your ego tells you that you TOO must be with a WS never once stopping to question that decision.

So why do some of us continue to bring up these subjects and go over the some ground time and time again. Well, let's look at it from the business standpoint rather than the emotional side. I had a very good business teacher who told me that business have a much better chance for sucess if they can convert as many monthly or yearly fixed expense to variable. In other words, variable expenses or only expenses that you have to pay for only what you use. We all think about rent as our biggest fixed expense. Not alot of ways to convert that to a variable expense unless the landlord really feels sorry for you on bad sales months and we all know that's not going to happen. His lesson was that any fixed expense you can convert to a variable must be pursed. The reason. Fixed expense is like putting rocks in a bag that you must drag around behind. The more fixed costs, the more rocks in the bag, the heavier the bag and the slower you can move. Even small businesses that are dragging heavy bags are vunerable to failure because of the inability to change direction within their industry when required.

WIRE SERVICE is a fixed expense! It starts out as just monthly dues and incidental expenses - first rock. Then it's the cc business - second rock. Then it is a sending system or a complete POS and maintanence fees - big rock. Then a WS website - another rock. it didn't start out that way, but now you have a bag with alot of rocks and the monthly fixed expense is a hummer! The problem is florists never look at getting rid of some of those rocks. Their focus now becomes on ways to pay for those fixed costs. Some of those rocks they can't get rid of because they are now part of there business such as the sending system or POS and that rock is firmly attached to the WS. It may have been ego or feeling good about their decisions that got them into this, but it is lack of math or business skills that prevents them from getting rid of these rocks.

"To be angry at a WS with whom I have decided to stay married to, I would have to contradict myself". In other words, as a human we have to admit that we made an error in judgement and as difficult as it may be, this is easier for some as versus to others. Some of us continue to shed light on the subject of WS in hopes that the light will get go on for a portion of the florist population and yet we know that many are not even looking for the light switch. But, as long as human nature of some people exists that can allow them to finally admit that they may have made an error in judgement, there is hope that some of the florists on these boards are part of this group.

For those that aren't looking for the light switch, we apologize for our pesistence.

.

 

[Tom Carlson]

Let's knock it off

Businesses are comprised of people and those people are consumers of a labor need. The business consumer reacts to their consumers needs based on their demands. So your "consumer" (retail consumer) is causing the demand for immigrants.

Joe, you are just pushing it. I explained my comment and you won't stop there. This thread did not start out to be about immigration. I quit.

 

[goldfish]

Mr Griff, I was just trying to answer the very first question of this thread: why are we (WS members) not angry?

That was a very interesting question actually, because it was related to a certain question that I had always wanted to ask...

Don't you think it's strange that the majority of angry/negative/whatever comments aginst WS, at least in this board, are coming from the very people who no longer belong to WS? I always thought (and still think) it's strange.

These non-WS members (including yourself) are already divorced from the evil WS. They are supposed to be done with them. Why are they still bit**ing about the former partners?

Is it because of us who have decided to stay with WS, a testimony that they might, just might, have made a wrong decision? If they (anti-WS people) are so convinced of their decision of leaving WS, why does the existence of us bother them at all?

In their view, we (existing WS members) are basically pathetic losers who don't really understand what's going on. In that case, I would understand if they should offer us some kind of sympathy, but we seem to be getting contempt instead???

If you separated from your partner and saw the partner flirting with someone else, would you tell that new person he shouldn't be dating with your ex? Sorry to be so blunt... but... are you missing WS?

 

[fairfield]

Mr Griff, I was just trying to answer the very first question of this thread: why are we (WS members) not angry?

That was a very interesting question actually, because it was related to a certain question that I had always wanted to ask...

Don't you think it's strange that the majority of angry/negative/whatever comments aginst WS, at least in this board, are coming from the very people who no longer belong to WS? I always thought (and still think) it's strange.

These non-WS members (including yourself) are already divorced from the evil WS. They are supposed to be done with them. Why are they still bit**ing about the former partners?

Is it because of us who have decided to stay with WS, a testimony that they might, just might, have made a wrong decision? If they (anti-WS people) are so convinced of their decision of leaving WS, why does the existence of us bother them at all?

In their view, we (existing WS members) are basically pathetic losers who don't really understand what's going on. In that case, I would understand if they should offer us some kind of sympathy, but we seem to be getting contempt instead???

If you separated from your partner and saw the partner flirting with someone else, would you tell that new person he shouldn't be dating with your ex? Sorry to be so blunt... but... are you missing WS?

I am one of those out of the WS, yet I still complain about them. My reason is simple: The WS not only competes themselves, but enables the OG's to compete also. You have to understand what they are competing against and the effect of that competition in order to truly appreciate the consequenses to the industry. They are competing against the very florist that allows their existence. What is wrong with that? I could look at it from a self-serving standpoint and say, "Great, let those poor fools go out of business. All the more for me." That is hardly going to help this industry.

For those who say it's business first or your business decisions should be based on what is best for your business and if I can make a buck today I will, think of this: If you think you are in survival mode now, or holding your own now, what will happen to the industry if most florists decide to do the same thing you are? There will be no "industry". It will be every florist for themselves. No industry ties, no common ground.

This WS and OG competition is not necessary and I don't believe every florist out there knows that. Hence the drum. Every chance I get I tell a fellow florist that it is possible to make it without the WS. It would be very shortsighted of me not to - in my opinion.

As far as your former girlfriend goes; I would sure appreciate a heads up if she had an incurable VD before I abandon my morals.

 

[Tom Carlson]

I am one of those out of the WS, yet I still complain about them. My reason is simple: The WS not only competes themselves, but enables the OG's to compete also. You have to understand what they are competing against and the effect of that competition in order to truly appreciate the consequences to the industry. They are competing against the very florist that allows their existence. What is wrong with that? I could look at it from a self-serving standpoint and say, "Great, let those poor fools go out of business. All the more for me." That is hardly going to help this industry.

For those who say it's business first or your business decisions should be based on what is best for your business and if I can make a buck today I will, think of this: If you think you are in survival mode now, or holding your own now, what will happen to the industry if most florists decide to do the same thing you are? There will be no "industry". It will be every florist for themselves. No industry ties, no common ground.

This WS and OG competition is not necessary and I don't believe every florist out there knows that. Hence the drum. Every chance I get I tell a fellow florist that it is possible to make it without the WS. It would be very shortsighted of me not to - in my opinion.

As far as your former girlfriend goes; I would sure appreciate a heads up if she had an incurable VD before I abandon my morals.

My comments are as much for Goldsmith.
I think Fairfield and I are on the same page.

Goldsmith, I bi**h even though I am WS Free, because indirectly, the damage being done by the Wire Services affects me also. Dropping out of the WS did not relieve all my pain. There is enough pain to bi**h. And I believe that when there is no pain, there is no gain. This mess will get fixed if the florists want it fixed.

The WS, all 3 of them, have gotten themselves into a corner they cannot get out of by themselves. If one WS banned SFOs and OGs and stopped giving Rebates, they would be done in, finished. Who is going to go first and end up in their own grave? They would have to get together and all 3 agree to end these practices and then the Government Anti Trust people would say they can't do that. The WSs are not the solution, the florists are the solution.

As I see it, there is only one way out of this mess. The florists can put them out of their misery quite quickly. DROP THEM. Then the WS probably can start to make changes and get back to the original concept.

The solution to the mess we have today is in the hands of the retail florist, but not by cozying up to the WS.

I am not preaching IFA, but this looks to me like a way to get back to the original concept of exchanging orders. It is member run and for that matter, member owned in the true sense of the word. Yet florist will not come into IFA as long as there are WS Rebates out there. They can get the old 80/20 formula or get brave and opt for the 100/0 [which is really not effectively working at this time] But I hope that is what it comes to, 100/0 with payment by Credit Card NOW, and at an extremely low cost. I hear gripes about IFA which really have no foundation at this time because IFA is young and does not have millions of dollars, it does not have hundreds of thousands of dollars. But what it is doing now is being done well, EXCHANGING ORDERS. We have not used a selection guide for 5 years and our outgoing orders are increasing. When a customer orders on-line with a selection from our website, we can refer the filling florist to our website [if they have a PC].
PC's are cheap today, unless one is beholden to the WS to pay for their POS and Software.

No one will get the WS Free Florists to stop bi**hing, at least not this one, mostly because there are new florists coming here every day.

 

[Griff]

Don't you think it's strange that the majority of angry/negative/whatever comments aginst WS, at least in this board, are coming from the very people who no longer belong to WS? I always thought (and still think) it's strange.

These non-WS members (including yourself) are already divorced from the evil WS. They are supposed to be done with them. Why are they still bit**ing about the former partners?

Is it because of us who have decided to stay with WS, a testimony that they might, just might, have made a wrong decision? If they (anti-WS people) are so convinced of their decision of leaving WS, why does the existence of us bother them at all?

No, Mr Goldfish, I don't think it is strange at all that the florists most angry are the ones that are no longer members. They are no longer members because they have come to realize that the SYSTEM <20-80 and rebates> and the WS behind the SYSTEM have a strangle hold on the industry. The system that was originally there to promote the sending of flowers, is now there to create competition and capture any order at any cost. The idea of order gatherering was originally created by 1-800, but the other WS caught on very quickly that it was a great way to tap into the major city delivery pools and capture orders that would normally be handled through the pools rather than through a WS. Order gatherering allowed operations or companies to appear to the customer as a local company and capture an order for transmission. The WS heartly endorsed this idea and liked it so much, they have continued to find ways to embellish the idea. Local B & M's found themselves competing with companies in their yellow pages that weren't even in the same state. Later the idea spread to the internet and this was all possible because of the old SYSTEM and the WS. WE ALL are confronted with contrived competition that is artifically created by wire services and their 20-80 program. Even if I don't belong to a WS, these artifical competitors still appear in my local yellow pages, my local search engines for listings in my town and it is all possible because of the 20-80, rebates and ultimately the wire services, which is almost completely financed by florists that are still in the system. Eighty-five percent of the profit generated by FTD is still done by the florists.

Although we complain the loudest, we also know that many of you can't change. YOU have too many rocks in YOUR bag. Some have taken to OGing themselves and some are too heavily invested in WS equipment of whatever. We are smart enough to know we can't change you. All we can hope to do is convince some of the others that before you start putting more rocks in your bag that your think very seriously about it. Basically once you have too many rocks, you are owned by the WS.

After 20 years in this business, I find most florists very short sighted. That's tough to say and I'm sure tougher to hear, but here's why. Because of the old SYSTEM, the emphasis and reward is on CAPTURING the order. The net result has been that the filler may do less than satisfactory work and the consumer suffers and so does the industry. The larger florists however are unwilling to change because most benefit from the commission program. Many designiated receiving florist are unwilling to change because they are not judged on how good they do, but rather the fact that they are willing to accept the order. If the large florists actually thought about it for a second they would realize that by putting the reward on filling those same orders, the larger, more qualified florist would reap the major share of the benefits. In fact, in the long run they would benefit much more than the 20% commission they are so concerned about losing. Here's how. Many qualified florists continue to raise their minimums in the directory to discourage incoming. These same high minimums discourage many consumers from sending orders as to costly. Pay the receiving florist full value which should lower the minimum value, make the receiving florist compete for the business and you have better quality work at lower prices and the consumer as well the industry benefits. Because of the economics, more orders will be sent florist to florist and everyone other than OG's and the WS benefits.

So we are not just b***hing to b***h. WE are ALL paying the price of the WS indiscretions. Because a share of the florists in this industry aren't willing to conceed that anything else is possible other than the current system, all some of us can do is continue to show the numbers and let the ones that CAN change arrive at their own conclusions.