Sad state of 'Help Wanted'

[anytimeflowers]

I AM in agreement that there should be some sort of required certification for design. Shannon, it doesn't have to be the grand-daddy of them all (AIFD), many states have certification that is much less expensive. For many, even most designers, AIFD is just not attainable for whatever reasons.

However, Louisiana has a law in place and it is mocked by those who have been unable to be certified but even more upsetting, it is mocked by the public. They do not see "arranging flowers" as something that takes any skill set at all. John Stossel did a segment on it and I would have included a link to it but YouTube has taken it down due to copyright litigation.

In answer to Doug's question, I pay $10/hr for clerk, very part time under 15 hours/week. I've never hired a designer, never wanted anybody else to blur the edges of what it is I'm known for.

 

[shannonlovesflowers]

I AM in agreement that there should be some sort of required certification for design. Shannon, it doesn't have to be the grand-daddy of them all (AIFD), many states have certification that is much less expensive. For many, even most designers, AIFD is just not attainable for whatever reasons.

However, Louisiana has a law in place and it is mocked by those who have been unable to be certified but even more upsetting, it is mocked by the public. They do not see "arranging flowers" as something that takes any skill set at all. John Stossel did a segment on it and I would have included a link to it but YouTube has taken it down due to copyright litigation.

In answer to Doug's question, I pay $10/hr for clerk, very part time under 15 hours/week. I've never hired a designer, never wanted anybody else to blur the edges of what it is I'm known for.

To be certified in NM from the NMSRFA costs (get ready) $2,500.00. I told them they must be smoking crack- literally I told them that. NM is a poor state. It's pretty safe to say most designers in NM make less than $10 an hour. Good ones like me are SUPER lucky to make $15. Give me a break- I may as well become AIFD!


And as far as the LA law is concerned- I truly believe it's just a bogus law to create revenue for the state. I did see the John Stossel segment and that's pretty much what I took away from it. Maybe I need to re-watch it.

 

[anytimeflowers]

To be certified in NM from the NMSRFA costs (get ready) $2,500.00. I told them they must be smoking crack- literally I told them that. NM is a poor state. It's pretty safe to say most designers in NM make less than $10 an hour. Good ones like me are SUPER lucky to make $15. Give me a break- I may as well become AIFD!

.

Ho~ly! That's incredible. I think mine cost less than $1500. They are now considering a flat $500 or $1000 for those who can prove they have been in the field for a certain number of years and just test out.

 

[Doug Munro]

What's interesting is that no one on this thread would think that $1000 for wedding flowers was outrageous, or that the shop that quoted $2500 for a wedding was "smoking crack" or even $500 for funeral flowers was it of line.

Yet, quote these prices for certification and they are ridiculous. I often hear the come back that "I don't need certification I have been doing this for years", think about it. Would any of us accept that response from someone defending us in court, wiring our house, or performing surgery.

Of course not. How can we as an industry expect the public to respect a floral certification if we don't ourselves? Yes it cost money, but it is your chosen career and livelihood .one of the things that I have commented about on this board is how many refer to themselves as "real florists". I am curious as to who hands out this designation and what are the qualifications. Based on what I have seen over the years the only qualification appears to be the ability to have a business card printed.

 

[BOSS]

For years, myself and different groups have been harping about "Industry Certification" for designers (akin to AIFD).

Akin to a UNION? Bargain for cost of living yearly increases? Medical? .....

The biggest (IMHO) part of the problem as I see it, is that retail flower prices are the same today as they were 15-20-25 years ago... and at the same time, overhead not including payroll, but including taxes both state and federal, as well as COGS have increased without a corresponding increase in retail pricing, which is not a good business model.

This has been allowed to happen because everybody is allowed to sell flowers, and the discounters have lowered in many cases the perception that flowers can be had cheaply. Couple that with retail florists not only not raising prices, but not arguing for quality increases from growers and importers. A good example of this is the failed attempt to pre-cool flowers in Bogota for instance, wrap them in thermal blankets and maintain a constant temperature from farm to wholesaler/retailer... growers wanted to, but florists refused to assist with cost recovery. Mid-America Airport in St Louis is the key example of this, they tried to establish a "northern" flower hub, getting flowers here two days sooner, thus fresher, yet Mid-West wholesalers did not support it.

I too would love to pay designers, hell my entire staff more, and I do see a time down the road in about 2 years where I will be able to do just that. We just finished our fiscal year August 31st, and the results are pretty sweet. I ended up with a 9.8% NET income including payroll and my salary. While it was eaten up by back debt from the last couple years and I don't have the actual cash, the austerity measures we have taken in the last 14 months have corrected many of the wrongs I brought upon myself. While they have been extremely harsh and painful (for me) continuing these measures for the next 14 months will get me back to a cash flow that will allow me to be able to offer more to employees than I am able to now, and I plan to do just that (myself too).

Without a corresponding increase in retail pricing, shops will forever be at the compensation level they are now, the same place they have been for the last 10 years.

 

[sandytf]

What's interesting is that no one on this thread would think that $1000 for wedding flowers was outrageous, or that the shop that quoted $2500 for a wedding was "smoking crack" or even $500 for funeral flowers was it of line.

Yet, quote these prices for certification and they are ridiculous. I often hear the come back that "I don't need certification I have been doing this for years", think about it. Would any of us accept that response from someone defending us in court, wiring our house, or performing surgery.

Of course not. How can we as an industry expect the public to respect a floral certification if we don't ourselves? Yes it cost money, but it is your chosen career and livelihood .one of the things that I have commented about on this board is how many refer to themselves as "real florists". I am curious as to hands out ghost designation and what are the qualifications. Based on what I have seen over the years the wonky qualification appears to be the ability to have a business card printed.

Doug, I know many floral designers that take advantage of any (affordable) opportunity to increase their knowledge and skills. The difference in your analogy is that the lawyers, electricians, and surgeons make a hell of a lot more money than a floral designer. It's all relative. I think Shannon's situation spells it out: as much as she would love to get some sort of official certification in her chosen field, it doesn't PAY for her to do it. When you're making $10-$12 an hour and supporting yourself on it, $2500 is A LOT of money to come up with-especially when the investment has no real pay off.

 

[Doug Munro]

Doug, I know many floral designers that take advantage of any (affordable) opportunity to increase their knowledge and skills. The difference in your analogy is that the lawyers, electricians, and surgeons make a hell of a lot more money than a floral designer. It's all relative. I think Shannon's situation spells it out: as much as she would love to get some sort of official certification in her chosen field, it doesn't PAY for her to do it. When you're making $10-$12 an hour and supporting yourself on it, $2500 is A LOT of money to come up with-especially when the investment has no real pay off.

The issue I have argued is basically what comes first " the chicken or the egg". The problem with certification currently is that so few have it that it is an oddity, rather than a standard. It cant be promoted to the public because frankly it does not exist.

As for my comparison of lawyers doctors and electricians, I think it is a good one. The stumbling block being discussed here is $2500 for certification. Yes the groups I mentions earn a lot more but the investment can be 100 fold (both in time and money) of what we are speaking. Most florists learn their trade "hands on" so by the time they have the skills to test for certification they already have been in the work force earning a paycheck, doctors and lawyers don't have the same opportunity, electricians do to an extent (depending on apprenticeship).

But all of that aside, as long as the "man on the ground " (or women) in our industry see's no value in certification neither will anyone else. Certification to me is more than simply being able to design to a set of standards, certification is understanding all aspects of retail flowers. Many florists don't even fully understand the concept of cut flower food, seriously. Yet it is a critical part of the chain of life. Flower food for many florists is just another expense, that is very apparent based on one fact alone, the bulk of prepackaged flower food is sold in 5 gm packages, just enough for a pint (liter) of water, typically not enough for a decent size bundle of flowers. Here's another one, how many florists can tell me the proper temperature and humidity level they need to maintain their cooler at, or what type of cooling unit they should have , high velocity fan or low velocity? I could go on for days, but it would prove nothing. The reality is like I stated earlier the only qualification currently in place for an individual to call themselves a "real florist" is the ability to have a business card printed.

For those that disagree, prove me wrong.

 

[shannonlovesflowers]

What's interesting is that no one on this thread would think that $1000 for wedding flowers was outrageous, or that the shop that quoted $2500 for a wedding was "smoking crack" or even $500 for funeral flowers was it of line.

Yet, quote these prices for certification and they are ridiculous. I often hear the come back that "I don't need certification I have been doing this for years", think about it. Would any of us accept that response from someone defending us in court, wiring our house, or performing surgery.

Of course not. How can we as an industry expect the public to respect a floral certification if we don't ourselves? Yes it cost money, but it is your chosen career and livelihood .one of the things that I have commented about on this board is how many refer to themselves as "real florists". I am curious as to who hands out this designation and what are the qualifications. Based on what I have seen over the years the only qualification appears to be the ability to have a business card printed.

Seriously Doug? Yes- It's my chosen field that I for some insane reason stay in. A lawyer, electrition, or surgeon is like comparing apples to ice cream. No one is going to die if I make an ugly arrangement.

Like Sandy said- Right now- no one pays floral designers well, not even flower arrangers. Maybe VERY few if we're lucky.


Now in Colorado- it would have cost me $500 total to be certified. I was on my way in March of 2009 to get that certification and a snow storm got in the way. By November I was living in ALbuquerque. $500 seems like a much more reasonable amount of money for taking a test- Rather than $2500...Like I said- if I were to pay that I'd just test for AIFD.


AND perhaps I'd be A LOT more jazzed about becoming AIFD if I thought the general public even had a clue what AIFD was. You'd be surprised how many people don't know what it is AND how many florists lie (to my face) and say they ARE AIFD. I really don't even think they know what they are liying about!

The most ridicilous lie I ever heard was a designer telling me she missed becoming AIFD by 5000th of a point. Give me a break.


So again- if the general public knew What AIFD was and it made a difference to them- I imagine I'd take the test.

 

[sandytf]

The issue I have argued is basically what comes first " the chicken or the egg". The problem with certification currently is that so few have it that it is an oddity, rather than a standard. It cant be promoted to the public because frankly it does not exist.

As for my comparison of lawyers doctors and electricians, I think it is a good one. The stumbling block being discussed here is $2500 for certification. Yes the groups I mentions earn a lot more but the investment can be 100 fold (both in time and money) of what we are speaking. Most florists learn their trade "hands on" so by the time they have the skills to test for certification they already have been in the work force earning a paycheck, doctors and lawyers don't have the same opportunity, electricians do to an extent (depending on apprenticeship).

But all of that aside, as long as the "man on the ground " (or women) in our industry see's no value in certification neither will anyone else. Certification to me is more than simply being able to design to a set of standards, certification is understanding all aspects of retail flowers. Many florists don't even fully understand the concept of cut flower food, seriously. Yet it is a critical part of the chain of life. Flower food for many florists is just another expense, that is very apparent based on one fact alone, the bulk of prepackaged flower food is sold in 5 gm packages, just enough for a pint (liter) of water, typically not enough for a decent size bundle of flowers. Here's another one, how many florists can tell me the proper temperature and humidity level they need to maintain their cooler at, or what type of cooling unit they should have , high velocity fan or low velocity? I could go on for days, but it would prove nothing. The reality is like I stated earlier the only qualification currently in place for an individual to call themselves a "real florist" is the ability to have a business card printed.

For those that disagree, prove me wrong.

Doug, I do agree to a certain extent that it's a vicious circle. My response was because I felt that the tone of your post sounded like you were laying the blame at the feet of floral designers. As well as many so called floral designers that have little qualifications, I would argue that there are more shop owners who have no clue about floral design OR running a business! And if the direction of the industry is any indication, it's highly unlikely that it's going to support floral designers investing in themselves. It's looking more and more as if the floral industry is in the hands of the tech savvy....who knows, in 20 years the floral designer may go the way of the blacksmith. Sad, but not hard to imagine.

Not to mention, floral design is a cross between a skill and a talent. Much like other visual art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder....and the appreciaton (purchase) of that art may or may not have anything to do with any certification.

 

[Doug Munro]

Seriously Doug? Yes- It's my chosen field that I for some insane reason stay in. A lawyer, electrition, or surgeon is like comparing apples to ice cream. No one is going to die if I make an ugly arrangement.

Like Sandy said- Right now- no one pays floral designers well, not even flower arrangers. Maybe VERY few if we're lucky.


Now in Colorado- it would have cost me $500 total to be certified. I was on my way in March of 2009 to get that certification and a snow storm got in the way. By November I was living in ALbuquerque. $500 seems like a much more reasonable amount of money for taking a test- Rather than $2500...Like I said- if I were to pay that I'd just test for AIFD.


AND perhaps I'd be A LOT more jazzed about becoming AIFD if I thought the general public even had a clue what AIFD was. You'd be surprised how many people don't know what it is AND how many florists lie (to my face) and say they ARE AIFD. I really don't even think they know what they are liying about!

The most ridicilous lie I ever heard was a designer telling me she missed becoming AIFD by 5000th of a point. Give me a break.


So again- if the general public knew What AIFD was and it made a difference to them- I imagine I'd take the test.

Read my previous post about "chicken or egg", the bottom line with all of this is that when this discussion comes up it amazes me how people in our industry will continuously defend their right to avoid "self improvement", or make sweeping statements about AIFD having no value. The general public might not see the value at this point in a certification such as AIFD, but rest assured the players in our industry do, look at any of the WS design teams, or ask yourself how often you have attended a conference with a workshop that the person teaching the design work was not AIFD.

I would never suggest that every AIFD is the worlds finest designer, lets face it there is a great deal of natural talent and flair required. But to use my previous analogy of lawyers, there are poor lawyers, good lawyers, and great lawyers. However the reality is that AIFD is a legal designation.

At the end of the day all I can say is that our industry at the traditional retail level is floundering, and if we do nothing we know what returns that will bring. I know that many of the folks that support FFC think the simple solution is "fixing the WS's", however that to me is a knee jerk solution that has little if any chance of changing the average florists lot in life. Advertising is great, something this industry needs, but again how can you advertise quality, skill, knowledge, etc when there are no standards to adhere to.

You know, if you want a comparison closer to home, even hair stylists receive training, and they pay to take it.

 

[jamie]

umm I have never met anyone who owns a business that says they are glad their industry is regulated. Regulation is brought about under the guise of public safety, but it is nothing more than another excuse for government to squeeze money from an industry.

Do you think that your local or state government is going to do research into what is required to properly run a floral design business? Do you think they are going to hire competent members of the floral industry to handle inspections?

No; they are going to have some half-jacked committee decide on an arbitrary (or completely random) set of guidelines, decide what to charge in fees, then hire the Mayor's moronic cousin to do inspections. (because he couldn't handle his old job of painting fire hydrants)

Then they are going to fire 1000 teachers, cops and firemen because government can't afford to pay them


FYI in the US we are floating at close to a 10% unemployment rate. It's so bad around here that the illegal immigrants are moving back to Mexico (no joke) If you don't want a job at $8.50 an hour then feel free to keep looking.

 

[shannonlovesflowers]

Read my previous post about "chicken or egg", the bottom line with all of this is that when this discussion comes up it amazes me how people in our industry will continuously defend their right to avoid "self improvement", or make sweeping statements about AIFD having no value. The general public might not see the value at this point in a certification such as AIFD, but rest assured the players in our industry do, look at any of the WS design teams, or ask yourself how often you have attended a conference with a workshop that the person teaching the design work was not AIFD.

I would never suggest that every AIFD is the worlds finest designer, lets face it there is a great deal of natural talent and flair required. But to use my previous analogy of lawyers, there are poor lawyers, good lawyers, and great lawyers. However the reality is that AIFD is a legal designation.

At the end of the day all I can say is that our industry at the traditional retail level is floundering, and if we do nothing we know what returns that will bring. I know that many of the folks that support FFC think the simple solution is "fixing the WS's", however that to me is a knee jerk solution that has little if any chance of changing the average florists lot in life. Advertising is great, something this industry needs, but again how can you advertise quality, skill, knowledge, etc when there are no standards to adhere to.

You know, if you want a comparison closer to home, even hair stylists receive training, and they pay to take it.

"The players in the industry" do not hire every AIFD designer there is. The handful of designers that do presentations are AIFD sure. But they are also usually employed or sponsored by by whatever it is they are promoting- be it FTD, TF, Smithers Oasis, Aqua foam, design master, etc... The vast majority of AIFD designers do not work for these companies, nor do they do presentations. I've done a few small shows and I'm not AIFD.


Now- I'm NOT dissing becoming AIFD for a designers own personal satisfaction. I think that's great. I hope to attend Symposium in Vegas in 2013. And depending on where I am- I may even test. But what I am saying is that the general public doesn't care and it wont make me any more money by being AIFD.

And I have said time and again there needs to be in place an organization that would be recognizable to the general public. A symbol that when people saw it- they knew it was a great florist/flower shop. And I've said it before- FTD used to be that symbol.

 

[anytimeflowers]

I guess my dismay at the cost of the certification in NM was caused because I know what it cost in MN and seriously if I were going to spend that much on certification, I'd want the big letters. The biggest problem with spending that money for AIFD is that just spending the money and knowing the material isn't enough. It then comes down to a few judges and their personal take on whether something meets a certain HIGH criteria.

For state certification, we cover everything so Doug has a very valid point. (btw, 34-37 optimum temp, at least 90% humidity, and low velocity.) I know that stuff not because I took classes but because I'm a dinosaur who likes to know the "whys" behind things. HOWEVER, these are just some of the things covered in certification in MN. It basically covers running a flower shop, from delivery to reading/preparing financial statements, marketing, display, and plant structure.

Oh....and design too.

I've long purported the need for certification to gain respect with the public. I will say that my awards and certifications hang on my walls along with flags sent from military men. I'm proud of them and people ARE impressed by it. Enough to buy only from me and never ever go to another big box? Nope.

It's something that would need to be branded and that is where my support for FFC comes from. I believe that they have gotten a large part of the ear of the industry and with many pulling together and really shouting the same message, we just may have something. I think the "fixing" has more to do with deceptive advertising but the percentage thing is already underway in Oregon and it is a good rallying point for people. I have had the privilege to sit at the knee of some really great thinkers here so my shrillness about ws has moderated somewhat, (especially once I was clear of them and didn't have to deal with their utter nonsense).

However, I totally agree with Mark. As long as the big boxes continue to sell flowers as a commodity, the masses are not going to "see the value" of a good designer vs a bad designer. My customers do but those who buy from me for my artistry and well-cared for product are buying less of it.

And if you ask John Stossel, anybody can arrange flowers.

 

[shannonlovesflowers]

Yup Linda- I think that was the gist of the John Stossel piece- Anybody can do it.

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Yup Linda- I think that was the gist of the John Stossel piece- Anybody can do it.

what's MORE "goofy" about this thread, and resistance to "certification" because of the associated costs (more correctly "INVESTMENT") is that folks have NO PROBLEM justifying a holiday that costs $2500.00, or a run to casino, and blow a few hundred bucks, or fly/drive to a FFC meeting (great value), yet see little value in getting that "professional" status of certification!
So, I suppose that it's OK to hire some guy working out of his garage to fix your car, since he's NOT licensed, or qualified, and it's NOT OK to hire the same that proudly displays his/her achievements in learning?
Some guy comes to your house, you need an electrical service call, what???...you're NOT gonna ask if he has credentials????
This is NOT a good thread.......it's a "catch 22"......why don't we just bring in Chinese or Jamaican immigrants during holiday season, like many farms do???
The wages are NOT there, because we pissed away control of a beautiful industry, and DIDN'T smarten up like we were "advised" to, a LONG TIME AGO!
A Shop owner is trying to hire people.....offering whatever dollars he/she can afford...DON'T want the job??...don't apply.....you're probably overqualified anyway.....

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

NOT TRUE!!!..............they can be taught to copy, like paint by numbers..................but DESIGN takes a special TALENT!

and cutting grass so it looks like "stripes" does NOT??

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

I've been afraid this was going to happen. There is no respect or even desire by the really large companies for artistry in floral design. It's the final outcome of flowers turning into a commodity, we've seen it happening as the web offerings continue to show consumers the same thing in different colors and consumers have become used to it as the norm.

And the design center part is exactly what I have been expecting. They will be popping up all over. Anybody who thinks the order gatherers are going to simply go away if everybody would just quit accepting and filling those orders is dead wrong and here is the proof.

You are completely right Cathy, this is going to have a huge effect on national average designer wages. The saddest part is that there will no longer be an incentive to learn and grow in the art of design if these "design" centers keep popping up. Why would anybody invest in their education if this is the pay they can expect.

what Linda has alluded to, IS, that those of us left, LOVE this silly business SO MUCH, that we ALLOW ourselves to be reduced to "poverty wages"...hey, wait, even Van Gough was penniless when he died......how many of YOUR designs will be worth MILLIONS...posthumously?

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

JMO, I think that's why most stores opened are by "designers". They do not want to work for "poverty wages". They are then thrown into the world of business, when design is their passion........

The essence, of this great post, is that florists, that "thought" they were, should have stayed working for "business people" that KNEW they WEREN'T!
There is NO fine line......BUSINESS FIRST, choice of business SECOND...florists/designers NEVER got that straight!

 

[Doug Munro]

JMO, I think that's why most stores opened are by "designers". They do not want to work for "poverty wages". They are then thrown into the world of business, when design is their passion........

The essence, of this great post, is that florists, that "thought" they were, should have stayed working for "business people" that KNEW they WEREN'T!
There is NO fine line......BUSINESS FIRST, choice of business SECOND...florists/designers NEVER got that straight!

Sadly Mikey you have hit the nail on the head, to quote a friend of mine
" There are far too many people in the flower business and far too few in the business of flowers"
In our industry so many get into the business because of their hearts and not their heads.
A proper system of certification would need to address the business side of things as well as the design side.

 

[Doug Munro]

what's MORE "goofy" about this thread, and resistance to "certification" because of the associated costs (more correctly "INVESTMENT") is that folks have NO PROBLEM justifying a holiday that costs $2500.00, or a run to casino, and blow a few hundred bucks, or fly/drive to a FFC meeting (great value), yet see little value in getting that "professional" status of certification!
So, I suppose that it's OK to hire some guy working out of his garage to fix your car, since he's NOT licensed, or qualified, and it's NOT OK to hire the same that proudly displays his/her achievements in learning?

You have taken the words out of my mouth, Training and certification is an investment in your business and chosen career. For a shop owner to use the excuse of $2500 being too much is ironic considering the investment they make every month in rent, or the cost setting up their business. Too often the cart is put before the horse.