BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
I already stated it... it's a lack of increased retail pricing following decades of COGS increases.
Sad state of 'Help Wanted'
- Thread starter CHR
- Start date
Doug, this thread was started with a help wanted ad from a WS fulfillment center:
Emphasis mine. I get your point about WSs not being responsible for every ill in the biz, yet in this specific discussion, WSs are central. LFCs pay commissions/fees of 31% per order to the WS. With such deep discounting and with razor thin margins, design/arranging labor costs must be kept at an extremely low level. Hence the low wages being offered.
prestonway
Well-Known Member
Sorry CHR, but I must disagree.
You're putting the cart before the horse, when in reality it's labor market economics at play.
Basic economics state that supply & demand for labor determine the wage rate.
If $9.00 is being offered, and somebody is willing to work at that wage, then labor market equilibrium has been found.
Whether the wage being offered is from McDonalds, 1-800, Hewlett Packard or Apple, it doesn't matter.
To state or imply that 1-800 is responsible for driving down the wage...well...that's simply irresponsible!
prestonway
Well-Known Member
Sorry CHR, but I must disagree.
You're putting the cart before the horse, when in reality it's labor market economics at play.
Basic economics state that supply & demand for labor determine the wage rate.
If $9.00 is being offered, and somebody is willing to work at that wage, then labor market equilibrium has been found.
Whether the wage being offered is from McDonalds, 1-800, Hewlett Packard or Apple, it doesn't matter.
To state or imply that 1-800 is responsible for driving down the wage...well...that's simply irresponsible!
Doug Munro
Well-Known Member
Although this thread was started on the basis of an ad placed by a franchised locally owned flower shop it does appear from some of the posts that followed that their wages are not out of line with what many independent privately owned shops pay.
I am curious, would you have started this thread if the ad had been run buy one of the other posters on this thread whose wages are in the same ball park?
My point in my last post is that it appears at times that some or so eager to find a third party to blame for any woes our industry suffers that they seem to go out of their way to ignore facts.
Yes costs have risen over the last decade or so, and the retail price has in some cases dropped. However, part of the problem is that our industry during good times got very used to a high margin, low volume sales formula. Now that florists are not the only game in town it has come back to bite the industry. I don't know how many times I have raised the issue on this board of the large amount of flowers being sold through supermarkets and big box stores, I just shake my head each time when I read the replies from those that claim these outlets are not their competitors. They sell flowers! Of course they are your competitors.
I suspect part of the problem is that the "Big 3" in the WS business make far easier targets than taking on the supermarkets and big boxes, or worse yet lowering margins and increasing volume.
Supermarkets and box stores are our competition but they don't masquerade as "partners" out to save the florists when really they are successfully sucking the profits out of every order.
secretgarden
Well-Known Member
I'm on the same boat as Helen. I gave 2 raises mid year this year and I am wire service free. Right now I'm spending on promoting the shop to bring the customers to then in turn pay them more. They will all receive a raise again in January (3rd year straight). I too wish I could do more. But I do splurge on them A LOT. Me and hubby bring them breakfast and when we have big events we buy lunch so we can all just grab and go. It's the little things we do that matter too.
Just an FYI...supermarkets most likely pay the better wages to their floral designers...especially if you ad in all the benefits.
anytimeflowers
Linda
That's definitely true around here. $12-$14 is typical but they have to belong to the union and if the store needs someone in dairy or the bakery or whatever, off you go. I know several people who work for Kowalski's, high-end grocery, fantastic floral and gift.
yup- I managed grocery store floral departments. It was a great gig. It was in OKC and if Donnie had not wanted to move to ABQ in 2000 (yeah we had lived here before) We'd still be there. Not only did I get to learn about design from a zillon design shows but I also got great training in running a department (cogs and such), I also got training on merchandising, marketing etc... AND benefits. PLUS it was alot of fun working in a grocery store. I never was asked to go work in the bakery or deli or dairy...simply because all those departments have their OWN hours allotted...In other words you can't mix time from one department to the next, floral hours can't be worked in the deli and so forth..The ONLY exception is checking/ringing up customers. If the front get's backed up- You may get called to the check out stands...which actually was a blast and totally mindless and a great "break" for a few minutes.
ANOTHER thing is at the grocery stores ever 2 hours you HAVE to take a break...seriously ever 2 hours! HOLY crap at any given flower shop you hit the door running and are lucky to get time to eat your lunch...AND not get any thorns or leather leaf dust in your drink! Well- at least all the flower shops I worked at.
We are not union (nor are most of the stores in Wisconsin that I'm aware of)....thank goodness! It's also very rare for a floral associate to be pulled to another section of the store. Occasionally we hire new trainees who are already trained as a cashier and they may work some hours as a floral associate and some hours as a cashier. I've never in 15 years had a manager or designer pulled from one of our depts. It's definitely different though...I had quite an adjustment period when I came from a traditional florist to the supermarket floral industry. More than once I've told my boss or colleagues that we are FLORISTS first and GROCERY STORE employees second. I've worked my butt off for 15 years to make our depts. the best of both worlds for our customers: great service and great design as well as convenience and value.
herndonflorist
Well-Known Member
Does anyone really think that $8.50 to $12.50 is enough to support a family on? Especially with no benefits like healthcare and sick leave? Are we really going from an industry where someone could support themselves as a designer, to one that is a kin to flipping burgers for a living? Does anyone besides Cathy have a problem with that? The problem as we all know is the collusion between order gatherers & wire services. If those people gathering orders were making $8.50 to $12.50 an hour I doubt we would all be in this boat! The product offered by order gathers and many online vendors is ridiculously low, so the profit has to come out of somewhere, don't know about you, but my cost of flowers is through the roof. So the money is coming off the backs of the designers. Are some of you really saying that is OK?
bootcampguy
Well-Known Member
There will always be people who will work for what-ever wages to pay their bills. The problem here are the owners. They do not have budgeted amounts of money higher that whats listed, most shops don't have a budget or even attempt to operate off a budget. I would rather be selective on work, pay higher wages, get a better employee, than employ 2 or 3 bouquet makers. One good or great designer can make you the money that you need to pay them good wages, but the owner(s) is the one who has to want to..............we (owners) are responsible for that cause.......no-one else
Turning this to what may be deemed other related sectors of the florist industry, I wonder what the WS pay for their Cust Service Reps; for those that handle the website programming for the wires and any florist members; what area reps are paid and, perhaps most interestingly; what their design department staff - those that design the containers & vases and then the floral designers in that group. I would hazard a guess that all of the above are earning more than what some B&M are paying staff.
Knowing people who worked for the Resnicks when they owned Franklin Mint, the pay and, where applicable, the benefits were roughly in the industry middle. This was back around 2000.
Knowing people who worked for the Resnicks when they owned Franklin Mint, the pay and, where applicable, the benefits were roughly in the industry middle. This was back around 2000.
No I don't think you can live on those types of wages. BUT have you looked at any of the the help wanted ads posted in your area? I don't know about you, but in MICHIGAN, average wages have dropped like a stone. Skilled and unskilled jobs alike. Several big companies have had job fairs; starting wages $9-$10/hour. So many office staff, customer service, computer literate; $8-$9/hour, even more strait commission. It seems to be the new reality around here. I do pay better than that, but my employee is not full time either. I have gone from having 5 employees on staff to me plus 1. sucks here in Michigan, as we creep back from a depression.
and yes I value education (MSU grad in hort) . BUT... I also value my $$. I have spent money on classes that really lacked skilled instruction in mechanics and focused more on poke and copy, it makes me really skeptical to shell out more...
prestonway
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is OK.
Because the labor market determines the wage rate...not the wire service.
If you can't make a living at that wage rate, it's simple.
Find another career, or move to another area with higher wages, or get a job with a grocery store flower department.
Last I checked, it's a free world with labor market mobility across the country.
But please, stop blaming the ws for everything that ails this industry...sometimes we have to look in the mirror as well...
Doug Munro
Well-Known Member
Wow, I wonder how long before someone finds a way to blame the failure of flower farms in Colombia on the wire services.
As independent business owners it fall upon individuals to find ways to make their own businesses work taking into account all of the realities around them. To continuously look for third parties to blame for ones own failure is I guess a sign of the times. So lets make a list of all the third parties that an independent owner /operator can blame for their businesses lack of success
1) Landlords - These robber barons have been charging to much rent for too long. They wrongly feel justified in doing so simply because they made the investment and took the risk on the property the retailer occupies.
2) Banks - First they make it difficult for people to borrow money based on ridiculous criteria such as credit history and net worth, then on top of this they demand interest. Let's not even start with charges for processing credit cards and debit cards, highway robbery! Worst of all they see no reason that when a business is struggling or actually fails why they shouldn't simply be nice guys and forget about the debt.
3) Oil Companies - They continuously raise the price of gas, with little if any concern on how this effects the cost of delivering flowers and a shops bottom line.
4) Utility Companies - Pretty much the same callous attitude towards the florist as the oil companies, quite possibly they are working in conjunction to undermine the retail flower shop.
5) Wholesalers - It ridiculous how they entice the retailers to buy more inventory than they need then expect to be paid for it in 30 days even though the inventory may sit in the retailers shop gathering dust for months or years on end.
6) Consumers - What is wrong with these individuals, don't they realize the investment a retailer flower shop owner has made, all so that they can have quality fresh flowers. But no, they have "better" things to do with their disposable income like paying rent, eating, buying gas ( lousy oil companies again) even worst is when they chose to frivolously spend money on luxuries they don't need such as vacations, dinners, movies, etc, rather than supporting their local florist.
I have intentionally left WS's and OG's off the above list as it is pretty self evident that most on this board already blame them for all their personal woes and misfortune.
As independent business owners it fall upon individuals to find ways to make their own businesses work taking into account all of the realities around them. To continuously look for third parties to blame for ones own failure is I guess a sign of the times. So lets make a list of all the third parties that an independent owner /operator can blame for their businesses lack of success
1) Landlords - These robber barons have been charging to much rent for too long. They wrongly feel justified in doing so simply because they made the investment and took the risk on the property the retailer occupies.
2) Banks - First they make it difficult for people to borrow money based on ridiculous criteria such as credit history and net worth, then on top of this they demand interest. Let's not even start with charges for processing credit cards and debit cards, highway robbery! Worst of all they see no reason that when a business is struggling or actually fails why they shouldn't simply be nice guys and forget about the debt.
3) Oil Companies - They continuously raise the price of gas, with little if any concern on how this effects the cost of delivering flowers and a shops bottom line.
4) Utility Companies - Pretty much the same callous attitude towards the florist as the oil companies, quite possibly they are working in conjunction to undermine the retail flower shop.
5) Wholesalers - It ridiculous how they entice the retailers to buy more inventory than they need then expect to be paid for it in 30 days even though the inventory may sit in the retailers shop gathering dust for months or years on end.
6) Consumers - What is wrong with these individuals, don't they realize the investment a retailer flower shop owner has made, all so that they can have quality fresh flowers. But no, they have "better" things to do with their disposable income like paying rent, eating, buying gas ( lousy oil companies again) even worst is when they chose to frivolously spend money on luxuries they don't need such as vacations, dinners, movies, etc, rather than supporting their local florist.
I have intentionally left WS's and OG's off the above list as it is pretty self evident that most on this board already blame them for all their personal woes and misfortune.
Doug- simple question for you....Have you ever owned a flower shop? Or worked in one?
Doug Munro
Well-Known Member
Assumed that went without saying. My point I making my list was simply to point out that when times change and business gets tough it is always easy to find someone to point a finger at.
The problem I have with finger pointing is that it seldom moves you forward.