BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
Keep in mind too... a very HUGE part of this is consumer education....
SAF and their stand on Order Gathering
- Thread starter Kristine
- Start date
Consumer's don't want to be "educated" or preached at for a convenience purchase. They want a quick, convenient opportunity that inspires trust and confidence. Having a web site that looks like your 14 yr old gamer nephew designed it 10 years ago just doesn't cut it. Answering the phones in an unprofessional manner just doesn't cut it. Telling the customers why they should NOT buy from you doesn't cut it.
The reality is that our economy has evolved - as Bootcamp Rick says, it's not a recession, it's an evolution of the marketplace. It's a me-centric environment where the consumer demands to have their needs met on their terms. Unless you are as good or better and serving your clients on their terms, the OGs will get the volume and control the playing field.
Yes Ryan they do need an education!!! Its how to is the issue. it starts with everything you and I have been saying. YOUR OWN BACKYARD !!
duanermb
New Member
Indeed. Last I checked, there are only 7 maps spots, 10 organic spots and 11 paid search spots on the first page of Google. It's quite sad that in many larger centers, the results are dominated by OGs and directories. All 28 spots are there for the taking, but "SEO is too hard, AdWords is too expensive, and the map is difficult to control". Hogwash!
Outages in service will only anger the beast. Has anyone actually defined what they want out of this? No OGs? No rebates? It will not happen.
The only thing that makes sense in today's changed marketplace is to keep the network the way it is currently and lower the outgoing commission to 10% so the fillers have a chance. I'll sign up for whatever service makes that change immediately.
This is going to hit you in the solar plexis....
I live in OC California the hotbed of the world famous Google.
I have been contacted personally by several people who have some kind of clandestine relationship with Google (insiders).
Again, Google has a pretty significant presence here in Orange County.
They guarantee, I said,"Guarantee" they can get our store on the first page of google search ss long as we are contracted with them.
They charge a hefty fee, over 1,000 per month, but position is guaranteed.
These people call themselves SEO experts. I would say they have worked deals with Google somehow.
True SEO experts will never guarantee you first page position at any time.
THe money will always drive results is all this means.
Similar to the Yellow pages. THe big dollar ads always had prominence in YP.
Is this fair, well the unfairness is the secretiveness of it.
Google can probably do as they wish regardless.
Companies like TF, FTD,Pro and 1800 are all over the web with ads, why wouldn't you expect them get favorable search results.
Afterall, they are writing some very large checks to Google.
THere may be other florists on this site who have been contacted by one of these people.
They aren't ashamed of what they are doing. The are very straight up and guarantee results.
So, I don't necessarily agree that building a super site with super seo will solve any OG problems.
In fact, the OG often head search results and appear within the first 10 returns on search.
Yes I know it can be said they have done their SEO work very well.
Interestingly, Google is so non-specific about how search works.
Google constantly throws out some new search angle for us to apply.
Recently, they said they would give better positioning for reviews in Local Business Listings.
WHat a hoot...So everyone takes their laptop around town to Starbucks and creates favorable reviews.
This way the IP for reviews can not be ferreted out, that is if they even look at IPs.
I say work on your site, do the best you can and cancel your WS. That will eventually start taking them down.
We don't need WS anylonger. THe internet is a gateway to the world with your marketing messages and it's delivered in seconds.
I should also mention that Directory sites get favorable search returns and all they are is ad sites.
The SEO actually can work for them, because with Google philosphy they do have consolidation of listings on specific areas of interest.
I live in OC California the hotbed of the world famous Google.
I have been contacted personally by several people who have some kind of clandestine relationship with Google (insiders).
Again, Google has a pretty significant presence here in Orange County.
They guarantee, I said,"Guarantee" they can get our store on the first page of google search ss long as we are contracted with them.
They charge a hefty fee, over 1,000 per month, but position is guaranteed.
These people call themselves SEO experts. I would say they have worked deals with Google somehow.
True SEO experts will never guarantee you first page position at any time.
THe money will always drive results is all this means.
Similar to the Yellow pages. THe big dollar ads always had prominence in YP.
Is this fair, well the unfairness is the secretiveness of it.
Google can probably do as they wish regardless.
Companies like TF, FTD,Pro and 1800 are all over the web with ads, why wouldn't you expect them get favorable search results.
Afterall, they are writing some very large checks to Google.
THere may be other florists on this site who have been contacted by one of these people.
They aren't ashamed of what they are doing. The are very straight up and guarantee results.
So, I don't necessarily agree that building a super site with super seo will solve any OG problems.
In fact, the OG often head search results and appear within the first 10 returns on search.
Yes I know it can be said they have done their SEO work very well.
Interestingly, Google is so non-specific about how search works.
Google constantly throws out some new search angle for us to apply.
Recently, they said they would give better positioning for reviews in Local Business Listings.
WHat a hoot...So everyone takes their laptop around town to Starbucks and creates favorable reviews.
This way the IP for reviews can not be ferreted out, that is if they even look at IPs.
I say work on your site, do the best you can and cancel your WS. That will eventually start taking them down.
We don't need WS anylonger. THe internet is a gateway to the world with your marketing messages and it's delivered in seconds.
I should also mention that Directory sites get favorable search returns and all they are is ad sites.
The SEO actually can work for them, because with Google philosphy they do have consolidation of listings on specific areas of interest.
Domineaux -
I don't even know where to start on the claim of OC/Google 'insiders'. Eric, Ted, Me, Allie and other OC florists all do pretty well in Universal and Local search and I wager none of us shelled out $1000/mo to any SEO service.
RUN from any SEO service claiming to have inside connections with Google. That's a top claim from snake-oil salesmen who will take your money and leave your site in a mess.
I don't even know where to start on the claim of OC/Google 'insiders'. Eric, Ted, Me, Allie and other OC florists all do pretty well in Universal and Local search and I wager none of us shelled out $1000/mo to any SEO service.
RUN from any SEO service claiming to have inside connections with Google. That's a top claim from snake-oil salesmen who will take your money and leave your site in a mess.
Have you been contacted by any of these people?
I would think you have. The strange part is they aren't interested in your site or building an SEO package.
They do a keyword search thing, and tell you how they can guarantee positioning.
I have had 2 that would guarantee first page returns in Google.
One was over 1,000 and the other over 1,500 per month.
You can say run, but these people would take deferred payment on their results.
There was no pay us now. They billed upon their guaranteed results.
These people never claim to have an inside connection with Google.
I presume they do when they can make such claims and deliver.
I would think you have. The strange part is they aren't interested in your site or building an SEO package.
They do a keyword search thing, and tell you how they can guarantee positioning.
I have had 2 that would guarantee first page returns in Google.
One was over 1,000 and the other over 1,500 per month.
You can say run, but these people would take deferred payment on their results.
There was no pay us now. They billed upon their guaranteed results.
These people never claim to have an inside connection with Google.
I presume they do when they can make such claims and deliver.
Wow ... like Cathy said, how do you argue with irrational fallacy?
Buying into the "we're Google insiders" sales pitch is like a customer believing ProFlowers boxes are actually fedexed from the fields overnight. You can only shake your head.
OGs rank well primarily because their only competition is other OGs and semi-relevant directories. Florists aren't competing in most areas, so the OGs win by default.
Buying into the "we're Google insiders" sales pitch is like a customer believing ProFlowers boxes are actually fedexed from the fields overnight. You can only shake your head.
OGs rank well primarily because their only competition is other OGs and semi-relevant directories. Florists aren't competing in most areas, so the OGs win by default.
So which is it? Clandestine insiders or no inside connection?
If you let me pick the search term, I'll guarantee you just about anything
duanermb
New Member
Like any other decision in business do your homework on who to use for your services. It doesn't have to be expensive at all, but has to be part of any marketing budget these days. If it is not part of yours, make it part of yours. Saw recent stats on how much florists spend on marketing and it is a lot, up to 30% of their gross sales.
There isn't a question of whether or not this needs to be done in today's marketplace. We are still growing, and didn't have much cash when we started either, we just canceled our YP ad, and put that $375 a month towards the internet and some re-branding initiatives.
I must say (with the exception of deceptive advertising in the OG realm) I still don't understand why it's the right of the filling florist to question the entities they are partnered with.
J - I respect you a lot and my wife wants you to come to Winnipeg, but this statement is ludicrous:
I guess because I wasn't here during "the way it used to be" I don't see things the way you all do.
Why not try something meaningful like a class action lawsuit against all the wire services to make them police deceptive advertising throughout their own networks? I have a few fake locations still popping up in the maps here that I'd love to get rid of.
Yes. Transparency. It used to be a basic, important requirement when selling flowers for distant delivery. FTD used to test florists to make sure they itemized all the fees.
Customers were required to be told how many $ were for the flowers, how many $ were for local delivery and how many $ were for the service charge. Dropping that rule has resulted in more consumers getting less flowers for their dollars. Not a single OG itemizes their fees.
Additionally, there's no transparency when it comes to 'passing off' - pretending to be the actual florist who will deliver the order when the company is just a middleman. Since the middleman does not control inventory, he/she is selling 'hope' the product is available locally. A local provider is actually selling the product. There's a big difference, especially during major holidays.
So which is it? Clandestine insiders or no inside connection?
If you let me pick the search term, I'll guarantee you just about anything
I went partiallly through the process with one of them.
He guaranteed 1st page on search keywords... Florist, flowers
You tell me what it is? There is no way you can guarantee positioning on those keywords without some clout somewhere.
These are independent people, that dont' appear to be working for Google.
So... clandestine, secretive, on the sly, behind closed doors, etc. Who knows.. I just know the average SEO person can't guarantee position on search results.
So yes, me thinks there is a rat in the woodpile.
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
Only until there are no filler fools left willing to fill...then they die a quick death.
This could all be avoided *IF* the wires would see that by eliminating non-florists from the gig, that the order volume would remain and the florists would actually make money. The system worked and worked well for 90 years, then came the OG's fueled by rebates and Bad Bobby to the point of making the system top weighted and virtually unprofitable for the filler. The balance that prevailed for those first 9 decades allowed for both sending and receiving, now the receiving is profitless for the most part, and the sending is concentrated in the top 20% (or less) of shops and OG's. An unsustainable balance in the longer run.
BOSS
FlowerChat Administrator
My Strider site accomplished that all by it/myself.... and not only the first page, but the top spot...
Interestingly OC may be Google country, but they have an office in Missuagain too, and Google actually calls me directly from time to time... go figure...
You're right - we can't guarantee results. It's a gamble. Just like you can't guarantee satisfaction on your flowers - you can only guarantee your response to an unhappy customer.
Next to real estate, legal, pharma, etc, floral terms - especially the localized ones - are less competitive.
Heck, I could use that terminology in our marketing, if I wanted to, but I don't think it's ethical and no reputable search marketer will do so.
So really, what's more believable: that some unscrupulous marketers are willing to lie to close a sale, or that Google is willing to risk the entirety of their $28B business model for a few thousand dollars?
anytimeflowers
Linda
Back to the article in question.
I guess I read it much like Duane. Peter adamantly states that SAF is against deceptive advertising, and in fact "helped" get laws passed in half of the states.
I can see why he is encouraging everybody to get their own sites and compete for those orders that are being gathered up. SAF is walking a fine line, it must be like a frickin' duck shoot for them, everybody on every side demanding that SAF do something about........(insert your favorite scape-goat here).
I have to believe that the wire services and many of the order gatherers like Kremp are trying to get SAF to convince the florists that their way is better. This seems to me more like a "safe" article. Yes, he clearly states that all florists are already order-gatherers and should do everything in their power to do more of the same. I think his way of thinking is that if everybody would do so, then nobody would have anything to complain about anymore. (And consequently, we would all be off of SAF's backs.)
Here is my reality.
Number one. I have my own independent Strider site, which has been the best business decision I have EVER made, bar none. I had a lady call and place her $50 order with me after, in her own words, she searched through almost 30 other sites. Now that's perseverance! (It's also very telling that the same old same old is becoming a thing of the past.) She was seeing the same "designs" on every site, or close enough to offer little differentiation. Mine stopped her simply because it shows different images.
Number two. There is some argument going on about educating the consumer. I'm afraid, dear Ryan, that they do need to be educated. But......that does not mean they have to actually KNOW that they are being educated. Much the same way that the ws and og are educating them about long-stemmed roses being 40cm!
Number three. This is going to get down and dirty. I love J's idea of a boycott day, but agree 100% with Boss that a holiday would be a bad idea. Why? It isn't just that many who would normally consider doing so would be way too scared, (Ryan's comment said something about sucking on a bottle), but there are plenty who would just welcome the extra business that would be coming their way. The og's and ws have already made a habit of offering incentives to the consumer for "free delivery" and percentages off for accepting a delivery date other than the actual holiday and many consumers are hopping on that wagon.
However, the idea has merit if media would cover it in a wide-spread way. It would come off more like an old-fashioned sit-in. (anybody remember those besides me?) Anyway, the consumer would get "educated" in a big way if nationally or even internationally the media covered it. If the date were well known, people might even just forego ordering for a delivery that day, and choose another date instead. It would be a minor bump in the road. But.....it would get a message out and begin a real dialogue between all parties involved because it is a strong probability that the big names out there would see a drastic numbers change. Money talks.
Number four. I actively gather orders through every marketing medium I can think of, for orders that I will fill myself. I'm simply not interested in gathering and then sending out, I can only imagine that bloomstoady sometimes regrets the monster they created. And look at Art, throwing a temper tantrum over Boss not filling the order Art gathered the day before mother's day. I just don't want the head-ache, the added man-power, etc. Once you start, you can't stop because then you need to keep that higher sales volume to feel/look successful. But I welcome the lady from Sweden who ordered flowers through my site to be delivered to Saint Paul. She's my customer, and she is probably the customer of many other shops as well. I don't need the whole pie, it'll just slow me down and take away from my local customers who are my bread and butter.
I guess I read it much like Duane. Peter adamantly states that SAF is against deceptive advertising, and in fact "helped" get laws passed in half of the states.
I can see why he is encouraging everybody to get their own sites and compete for those orders that are being gathered up. SAF is walking a fine line, it must be like a frickin' duck shoot for them, everybody on every side demanding that SAF do something about........(insert your favorite scape-goat here).
I have to believe that the wire services and many of the order gatherers like Kremp are trying to get SAF to convince the florists that their way is better. This seems to me more like a "safe" article. Yes, he clearly states that all florists are already order-gatherers and should do everything in their power to do more of the same. I think his way of thinking is that if everybody would do so, then nobody would have anything to complain about anymore. (And consequently, we would all be off of SAF's backs.)
Here is my reality.
Number one. I have my own independent Strider site, which has been the best business decision I have EVER made, bar none. I had a lady call and place her $50 order with me after, in her own words, she searched through almost 30 other sites. Now that's perseverance! (It's also very telling that the same old same old is becoming a thing of the past.) She was seeing the same "designs" on every site, or close enough to offer little differentiation. Mine stopped her simply because it shows different images.
Number two. There is some argument going on about educating the consumer. I'm afraid, dear Ryan, that they do need to be educated. But......that does not mean they have to actually KNOW that they are being educated. Much the same way that the ws and og are educating them about long-stemmed roses being 40cm!
Number three. This is going to get down and dirty. I love J's idea of a boycott day, but agree 100% with Boss that a holiday would be a bad idea. Why? It isn't just that many who would normally consider doing so would be way too scared, (Ryan's comment said something about sucking on a bottle), but there are plenty who would just welcome the extra business that would be coming their way. The og's and ws have already made a habit of offering incentives to the consumer for "free delivery" and percentages off for accepting a delivery date other than the actual holiday and many consumers are hopping on that wagon.
However, the idea has merit if media would cover it in a wide-spread way. It would come off more like an old-fashioned sit-in. (anybody remember those besides me?) Anyway, the consumer would get "educated" in a big way if nationally or even internationally the media covered it. If the date were well known, people might even just forego ordering for a delivery that day, and choose another date instead. It would be a minor bump in the road. But.....it would get a message out and begin a real dialogue between all parties involved because it is a strong probability that the big names out there would see a drastic numbers change. Money talks.
Number four. I actively gather orders through every marketing medium I can think of, for orders that I will fill myself. I'm simply not interested in gathering and then sending out, I can only imagine that bloomstoady sometimes regrets the monster they created. And look at Art, throwing a temper tantrum over Boss not filling the order Art gathered the day before mother's day. I just don't want the head-ache, the added man-power, etc. Once you start, you can't stop because then you need to keep that higher sales volume to feel/look successful. But I welcome the lady from Sweden who ordered flowers through my site to be delivered to Saint Paul. She's my customer, and she is probably the customer of many other shops as well. I don't need the whole pie, it'll just slow me down and take away from my local customers who are my bread and butter.
Eric S
Demoted Webmaster
Even though I don't send and receive very much I'll support it for one day. Personally I think one day every week would send a better message but lets take baby steps.
Maybe it will be enough to change a few consumers minds? Or maybe it will turn away some consumers from buying flowers as a gift.
These things are going to happen regardless if its a group of florists not filling orders for one day or a company that skims and promises one thing and something else is sent.
All I know is that the pie is shrinking and I'm afraid there is just not enough money to keep everyone’s hands filled. If we were all sharing a piece of that $80 rose arrangement perhaps. But that average order is declining and there is just simply not enough to go around. Especially when you have companies lower the price without any regards to what the real cost are.
Besides Proflowers also uses the same advertizing against us everyday. Fresh from the fields and no middleman. We all can agree that they are the biggest threat to florists.
Lets stop fighting over the crumbs and allow this industry to change for the better.
Too many people and too many companies having a hand into a bouquet of flowers. It really is incredible when you think about it.
Maybe it will be enough to change a few consumers minds? Or maybe it will turn away some consumers from buying flowers as a gift.
These things are going to happen regardless if its a group of florists not filling orders for one day or a company that skims and promises one thing and something else is sent.
All I know is that the pie is shrinking and I'm afraid there is just not enough money to keep everyone’s hands filled. If we were all sharing a piece of that $80 rose arrangement perhaps. But that average order is declining and there is just simply not enough to go around. Especially when you have companies lower the price without any regards to what the real cost are.
Besides Proflowers also uses the same advertizing against us everyday. Fresh from the fields and no middleman. We all can agree that they are the biggest threat to florists.
Lets stop fighting over the crumbs and allow this industry to change for the better.
Too many people and too many companies having a hand into a bouquet of flowers. It really is incredible when you think about it.
Doug Munro
Well-Known Member
Part of the the problem with this issue is that there is far too much emotion involved. Peter is correct in the fact that we are all order gatherers. Unfortunately the term "Order Gatherer" has become a derogatory one due in a large part to the use of deceptive advertising practices by some companies.
The legitimate high volume websites are simply doing a far better job than most in generating orders, much in the same way that some retail flower shops far out perform others. How many retailers have bought into the current holy grail in the flower business that their salvation is in having a website? A website is only as good as the effort put into it. The classic example of this is the templated sites offered by the WS's and a number of independents. Many of them have not been updated by the owner since the day they were launched (Just look at the "About Us" page and how many say "Coming Soon").
The reality is that the rules of the game have changed for everyone in this industry and individuals can either adapt to the new playing field or eventually perish. Those that complain about the injustices, cry about the practices of the other guy, and lament about what should be, while at the same time do little to build there own business will surely go the way of the dodo bird. I guess the good news is that it will certainly clear the field for the rest of us .
The legitimate high volume websites are simply doing a far better job than most in generating orders, much in the same way that some retail flower shops far out perform others. How many retailers have bought into the current holy grail in the flower business that their salvation is in having a website? A website is only as good as the effort put into it. The classic example of this is the templated sites offered by the WS's and a number of independents. Many of them have not been updated by the owner since the day they were launched (Just look at the "About Us" page and how many say "Coming Soon").
The reality is that the rules of the game have changed for everyone in this industry and individuals can either adapt to the new playing field or eventually perish. Those that complain about the injustices, cry about the practices of the other guy, and lament about what should be, while at the same time do little to build there own business will surely go the way of the dodo bird. I guess the good news is that it will certainly clear the field for the rest of us .
Rhonda
Well-Known Member
You know what Doug??? We've been through this before. MOST real flower shops are disgusted with other "supposed florists" pretending to be located in their towns, delivering in their towns, and are NOT in their towns............. The real fault now lies with the wire services, FTD and Teleflora as well as 800 who let their members advertise on the internet with doorway pages with false information and false SEO and keywords........ Totally AGAINST their membership rules BUT the wire services turn a blind eye WHY???? the orders filter through their systems and the little guys pay the fees while the NON flower shops gather their %, their rebates and dupe the customer into believing they have dealt with a REAL flower shop........... The "little guy" WILL get sick and tired of being taken advantage of...
Doug Munro
Well-Known Member
Hal,
You must have voted Democrat....lol After all are they not the bunch that is preaching that Obama care is a good thing regardless of the disapproval rating and the real problem is the average voter "just doesn't fully understand it" and simply needs to be educated about the issue (a polite way of saying they are simply too stupid to grasp the concept).
The reality is that different agencies have been striving for decades to educate the average consumer about the life threatening dangers of smoking, drinking and driving, and over eating, all with varying degrees of limited success. I am curious how you will educate the consumer on our issue (certainly not life threatening) when there is no united group or funding to do so. Please enlighten me.