SAF and their stand on Order Gathering

[duanermb]

You know I aggressively pursue every opportunity to market our business - and have spent countless hours volunteering to help other florists do the same, yet Peter's article - as the leader of SAF - gave NO acknowledgment of how bad deceptive marketing of flowers really is right now. And the way many of the 'leading companies' have chosen to change their business marketing has been to adopt those same deceptive techniques.

It's awful.

As I have been defending the article to some extent. But, I completely agree with this statement. And I believe that there is nothing wrong with saying "can can get your flowers delivered for you in xxxxx city", this is something that should be policed and a requirement for membership in SAF that is NOT currently being done. This is something meaningful that we as a group can sink our teeth into.

If anything comes of this SAF,

Please hold to your statement of tackling deceptive advertising and tell us what you plan to do about this.

Start working on the micro. This seems to be what no agency anywhere can do. I have tried in Canada, to no avail. Hanging out in Ottawa is nice, but spend some time in Tuktuyuktuk too you guys.

 

[bootcampguy]

Duane,
That would work for the WS or members, but the OG don't belong to any of the trade organizations........they only belong to some of the trade "civic" associations not associted with the florists.................that's why I puzzled why none of the trade orginizations will take them on.......The only thing that will beat them is like "Mike the Flower guy" says is to ban togehter like the 5,000 here and give them a good old fashioned "sales butt whippin"............

 

[duanermb]

Duane,
That would work for the WS or members, but the OG don't belong to any of the trade organizations........they only belong to some of the trade "civic" associations not associted with the florists.................that's why I puzzled why none of the trade orginizations will take them on.......The only thing that will beat them is like "Mike the Flower guy" says is to ban togehter like the 5,000 here and give them a good old fashioned "sales butt whippin"............

Yea, a lot of talk an absolutely no action.

Tackle the root of the issue, not the individuals, or the monsters who perpetuate it. I am always in for something good, will open my wallet and stand up. Oh, wait this might cost a buck or 2. Forget it.

If we want change, we have to go about it without emotion and be fully ready to support it. Do something that won't negatively affect our industry and do something that consumers can stand behind.

The root of the issue, and something we can work on has nothing to do with these companies. They are taking advantage of a broken system. SAF and perhaps a willing group of florists SHOULD tackle deceptive advertising head on. But it should not be specifically directed at any company, although examples will be required.

SAF can't go after specific groups, but I am sure would support a lobby against deceptive advertising overall without singling out any companies who do have legitimate claims to most of the orders they are generating.

But I guess that isn't as much fun as blaming the wire services for the woes of our industry is it?

4000 members x $10 = more than enough to start a campaign that makes sense and will be supported by consumers and by other organizations.

Again, tackle the system, not the perpetrators and we could have some success.

 

[anytimeflowers]

Yea, a lot of talk an absolutely no action.

Tackle the root of the issue, not the individuals, or the monsters who perpetuate it. I am always in for something good, will open my wallet and stand up. Oh, wait this might cost a buck or 2. Forget it.

If we want change, we have to go about it without emotion and be fully ready to support it. Do something that won't negatively affect our industry and do something that consumers can stand behind.

The root of the issue, and something we can work on has nothing to do with these companies. They are taking advantage of a broken system. SAF and perhaps a willing group of florists SHOULD tackle deceptive advertising head on. But it should not be specifically directed at any company, although examples will be required.

SAF can't go after specific groups, but I am sure would support a lobby against deceptive advertising overall without singling out any companies who do have legitimate claims to most of the orders they are generating.

But I guess that isn't as much fun as blaming the wire services for the woes of our industry is it?

4000 members x $10 = more than enough to start a campaign that makes sense and will be supported by consumers and by other organizations.

Again, tackle the system, not the perpetrators and we could have some success.

My wallet is open and ready, as well as any other help that I can give. I'm in!

 

[CHR]

FTD's parent company had these "issues" BEFORE purchasing FTD, so, at least recognize, that THIS particular decision, has LITTLE to do with the flower business

FTD was already participating in the WebLoyalty scam well before it was purchased by United Online. My belief is that the high profits earned from post-transactional marketing were one of the key buying points for UNTD (since they were earning huge profits doing the same via Classmates.com).

I listened to the conference call last week and Goldston had to concede to the investor group that those 'profits' will likely never return. He said he initially thought the programs would resume and deliver a nice return (I can't recall the percentage) but he was now sure they were finished.

 

[Eric S]

Yea, a lot of talk an absolutely no action.

Tackle the root of the issue, not the individuals, or the monsters who perpetuate it. I am always in for something good, will open my wallet and stand up. Oh, wait this might cost a buck or 2. Forget it.

If we want change, we have to go about it without emotion and be fully ready to support it. Do something that won't negatively affect our industry and do something that consumers can stand behind.

The root of the issue, and something we can work on has nothing to do with these companies. They are taking advantage of a broken system. SAF and perhaps a willing group of florists SHOULD tackle deceptive advertising head on. But it should not be specifically directed at any company, although examples will be required.

SAF can't go after specific groups, but I am sure would support a lobby against deceptive advertising overall without singling out any companies who do have legitimate claims to most of the orders they are generating.

But I guess that isn't as much fun as blaming the wire services for the woes of our industry is it?

4000 members x $10 = more than enough to start a campaign that makes sense and will be supported by consumers and by other organizations.

Again, tackle the system, not the perpetrators and we could have some success.

Remember this whole thing started with SAF article correct?
Isn't supporting SAF with our membership dollars enough? Many of us our supporting SAF and telling them this is what we need from you. We have been communicating with them for a long time about this and other problems that already negatively effect our industry. But then we see this article and it did not send the right message.

As far as taking the correct steps to handle these problems what else do we need to? Lets be a little more specific than just claiming all talk and no action.

We have talked to our WS reps and relay what is going on.
We have created a website that has a chance of competing against OG and WS.
Educate our customers.
We have communicated with SAF.

Do something that won't negatively affect our industry and do something that consumers can stand behind.

Okay so boycotting against the companies that enable all of these companies is not the answer. So we have to try and get some kind of legal crap to slowly stop this from happening. And then what watch some judge overturn it later? Yea we see this all the time.

But I guess that isn't as much fun as blaming the wire services for the woes of our industry is it?

Do you really think that the florist that post on this issue are doing it because they have nothing better else to do? Let me tell you something I removed myself from FTD and 800 flowers. And I kept my Teleflora membership because of our POS and the Ability of sending few orders. I stayed out of it until one day Rich from The Flower Place called me and told me to look at Teleflora's Find A Florist Directory. You can read about yourself here. How can you say that this is fun when everyday we are faced against these kinds of bully tactics? How can we not take it personally and do something about it.

 

[bootcampguy]

Remember this whole thing started with SAF article correct?
Isn't supporting SAF with our membership dollars enough?

I think people are doing alot............just this thread helps educate people who just don't know. I'm a member and my interests aren't being address......the article was written to "test the waters" and it shows the "weakness" in hand for them to address and help "us" battle the issue (not the poeple). I glad to see it is sometimes personal for others also.......day after day you get a little feed up with it..........
the practice.

 

[domineaux]

I appreciate a thread like this, because it gets us all thinking about ways to improve our lot in this business.

Even the defenders of the WS have their place in threads like this when they write with some reasonableness.

I have an ignore list probably like everyone else does. The ignore list is a great addition to forums.

There are people on this forums that I don't care to read anything they have to say.

I won't share my list, because everyone has to make his/her own mind about information on this forums.

I do think it is good that SAF, TF and others can have their say... as long as we can respond equally, that is very good.

There is no question in my mind the information from these forums does get to interested parties at the WS, SAF, and the OG.

The bells are ringing, they are hearing them, whether they act on or against us is their choice of course.

Naturally, the OG, 1800, Proflowers and the like are weaseling their own strategies.

I think it is very good that forum members spit it out, and make their feelings and thoughts known.

This is very good stuff, when people start thinking and reacting...things will start to happen among ourselves.

Good and positive things for our businesses for the most part.

 

[duanermb]

I think everyone seems to forget that SAF is not just a retail florists association, but represents a much larger group that includes suppliers, wholesalers and much much more. I can't conclusively say that they aren't biased by $ or influence from the wire services or large OG members, but what I do know is that there are ways to force them to act that are meaningful and relevant. Nobody responds well to ranting and raving, but a solid movement perpetrated from within the industry, that extends well beyond the industry, will get action.

What I have been told by local authorities here, is that this issue is so big that nobody can figure out how to handle it - especially when we are talking about wording and semantics like "we deliver to..."

What is needed is a few level headed individuals to put in time effort in to get something heading in the right direction. We know committees with no clear leadership fail, but small committed forces get things done and seem to bring others along with them.

I have always thought that J would be a fantastic person to do this and he has already stated his willingness to speak out. His reach is far wider than any of us, and if he is willing to take on tackling deceptive advertising online for the betterment of the industry and the florists who support him, I'll be the first to sign up.

Added: You know, a full page ad in Florists Review is only $2,000.00 and I am sure for a non profit organization, they will reduce the rate.

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

I think everyone seems to forget that SAF is not just a retail florists association, but represents a much larger group that includes suppliers, wholesalers and much much more. I can't conclusively say that they aren't biased by $ or influence from the wire services or large OG members, but what I do know is that there are ways to force them to act that are meaningful and relevant. Nobody responds well to ranting and raving, but a solid movement perpetrated from within the industry, that extends well beyond the industry, will get action.

What I have been told by local authorities here, is that this issue is so big that nobody can figure out how to handle it - especially when we are talking about wording and semantics like "we deliver to..."

What is needed is a few level headed individuals to put in time effort in to get something heading in the right direction. We know committees with no clear leadership fail, but small committed forces get things done and seem to bring others along with them.

I have always thought that J would be a fantastic person to do this and he has already stated his willingness to speak out. His reach is far wider than any of us, and if he is willing to take on tackling deceptive advertising online for the betterment of the industry and the florists who support him, I'll be the first to sign up.

Added: You know, a full page ad in Florists Review is only $2,000.00 and I am sure for a non profit organization, they will reduce the rate.

are you two people Duane??

 

[Doug Munro]

My point here seems to have gotten lost in the rhetoric

Nope, not enough said....

And yes Doug... I ONLY buy Fair Trade Coffee, meaning that the profits from the coffee I buy actually goes to the farmers, workers and their continuing growth and education, health and improved life. I want to know~!

Likewise, I'm exploring Fair Trade Flowers where the same things occur, the benefit of the farm workers, the profit to the farm and so on. Should have more on this in a month or two.

It's a personal choice to stop doing harm and start being responsible for my fellow man and myself.

Boss,

You are probably the exception as a consumer, not the rule. Most consumers do little if any research into the manufacturing, distribution, or sale of a particular product. All you have to do is take a look at our own industry to realize this, the very reason that South America became such a force as a producer in the flower industry is that retailers of flowers appreciated the low prices. Initially, very little concern was raised about growing conditions, re-numeration to workers, or job losses at home. The driving force in our own industry was price.....period. So why would anyone expect the consumer to be different or think they care to be educated based on the example set by florists.

In my former career as a wholesale florist we imported a lot of fresh flowers from South America, the reason was simple.... our customers demanded the prices. To my knowledge no one ever asked me if the actual grower ( in the wire service discussion this role would be filled by the fulfilling florist) made money producing the product. Quite frankly I don't think the thought ever occurred to them as long as they got price, quality and selection.

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Boss,

You are probably the exception as a consumer, not the rule. Most consumers do little if any research into the manufacturing, distribution, or sale of a particular product. All you have to do is take a look at our own industry to realize this, the very reason that South America became such a force as a producer in the flower industry is that retailers of flowers appreciated the low prices. Initially, very little concern was raised about growing conditions, re-numeration to workers, or job losses at home. The driving force in our own industry was price.....period. So why would anyone expect the consumer to be different or think they care to be educated based on the example set by florists.

In my former career as a wholesale florist we imported a lot of fresh flowers from South America, the reason was simple.... our customers demanded the prices. To my knowledge no one ever asked me if the actual grower ( in the wire service discussion this role would be filled by the fulfilling florist) made money producing the product. Quite frankly I don't think the thought ever occurred to them as long as they got price, quality and selection.

there is NO PROOF that us, as consumers, are TRULY receiving "fair trade" supplied goods at ANY level....saying so, DOES NOT make it so!

 

[lori042499]

Boss,

You are probably the exception as a consumer, not the rule. Most consumers do little if any research into the manufacturing, distribution, or sale of a particular product. All you have to do is take a look at our own industry to realize this, the very reason that South America became such a force as a producer in the flower industry is that retailers of flowers appreciated the low prices. Initially, very little concern was raised about growing conditions, re-numeration to workers, or job losses at home. The driving force in our own industry was price.....period. So why would anyone expect the consumer to be different or think they care to be educated based on the example set by florists.

In my former career as a wholesale florist we imported a lot of fresh flowers from South America, the reason was simple.... our customers demanded the prices. To my knowledge no one ever asked me if the actual grower ( in the wire service discussion this role would be filled by the fulfilling florist) made money producing the product. Quite frankly I don't think the thought ever occurred to them as long as they got price, quality and selection.

I believe that the consumer in most cases just assumes that the seller is making money or else they wouldn't be around...I also beliee that the consumer really doesn't care because it would be up to the seller to charge fairly to gain a fair profit from what they sell...The only time the consumer gives a crap is #1. the media gets involved and they start meking people aware of some type of bad thing happening from this product ie. kids getting sick because of lead paint from cost cutting practices, or dolphins dieing in nets, or families staving to death because of poor farm conditions... #2. The consumer gets some idea that the seller in question is making way too much profit off of thier goods to be considered fair, ie. gas companies reporting bilions of dollars in profit when gas is 5.00 a gallon and hurting 10s of thousands of households and businesses, or CEOs getting huge bonuses just because and whole companies taking a trip to the tropics on our profit, while we can barely take a weekend in the woods in a tent...these are the two reasons that drive people to question how much money is too much money to be made on a product and both need to be driven by the media and it has to be something the general consumer cares about nationally...usually a negative...it also needs to be something that affects people on a daily basis not a biyearly basis...like coffee and gas...which leaves us in the big I don't really care pile...

 

[concord]

I agree that the consumer does not care as long as they get what they want and when they want it at a price they are willing to spend. That's why I think we have to worry less about educating the customer about OG's and more about educating florists. We could all stop using wire services and send out orders directly with the consumer being none the wiser. We all make a btter profit in the long run and the customer gets their flowers.

 

[anytimeflowers]

Florists most definately need to be educated. I imagine that is what the driving force was behind Peter's article. It is truly amazing to me that so many florists do not have a web site.

Google seems to have done more to help in that area with their google places. We at least have a better chance of finding florists in the city we are sending to, although if they do not have an independent site, it is difficult to decide if we want to trust them.

I very much hope that SAF continues in this vein, with perhaps a little better choice in words so that the meaning is not dubious.

In other words, take a firmer stance, SAF, now is the time to act. Clearly there is a ground-swell of like-minded florists, but as pointed out, leadership is needed. You are one of the best sources for getting information out to florists, don't make it the wrong information.

Linda Pawlik

 

[lori042499]

Linda, it doesn't amaze me one bit that so many florists have no website...just think those evry florists have probably still been sinking their money in print advertising, something they feel that hey know works and still losing biz...They don't have internet access and are afraid or don't want to learn the computer, it is totally foreign to these people. How do you buy something you know nothing about or are afraid of?? How do you know it is working? The ads that they have been buying for 50 years stopped working, so why would this work...They are just afraid of the process, afraid at this point to lose more of their money, afraid of the costs associated with keeping the website going..and they may be smart enough to know not to get involved with a ws website because they are listening to younger florists, but this makes they equally leary of the process because companies that they have trusted for many, many years they can no longer trust because of the way the internet has gone...I am only 40 years old and think in some parts of my brain that the internet has hurt our industry, imagine how these people, that don't even know what the internet is, feel about the internet...How many florists came upon retiring age 15 years ago and hung in a few more years just to spend all or most of their retirement money on the ads and programs they thought they knew worked and now have to walk away from their stores with nothing to sell and no saved money, because tf, ftd and the yellow pages got it all...I feel bad for these people...they were asleep at the wheel and had no idea that a train was coming and once hit they sat in a coma and watched it all happen without even realizing what was going on...not really the way to run a business, but then again many business savvy people were blindsided by the internet train and weren't prepared to handle the ramifiations of the changes to take place, how the heck were ma and pa of limited schooling supposed to play along?

 

[Doug Munro]

I believe that the consumer in most cases just assumes that the seller is making money or else they wouldn't be around...I also beliee that the consumer really doesn't care because it would be up to the seller to charge fairly to gain a fair profit from what they sell...The only time the consumer gives a crap is #1. the media gets involved and they start meking people aware of some type of bad thing happening from this product ie. kids getting sick because of lead paint from cost cutting practices, or dolphins dieing in nets, or families staving to death because of poor farm conditions... #2. The consumer gets some idea that the seller in question is making way too much profit off of thier goods to be considered fair, ie. gas companies reporting bilions of dollars in profit when gas is 5.00 a gallon and hurting 10s of thousands of households and businesses, or CEOs getting huge bonuses just because and whole companies taking a trip to the tropics on our profit, while we can barely take a weekend in the woods in a tent...these are the two reasons that drive people to question how much money is too much money to be made on a product and both need to be driven by the media and it has to be something the general consumer cares about nationally...usually a negative...it also needs to be something that affects people on a daily basis not a biyearly basis...like coffee and gas...which leaves us in the big I don't really care pile...

Lori,
My point exactly. Unfortunately our industry is not one I would care to open to consumer scrutiny.

Ask yourself this how many consumers would understand the justification for a retail industry purchasing something for $10.00 and retailing it for between $40.00 - $50.00? Now before everyone jumps in regarding labour costs, rents, etc., the bottom line is that the consumer in general doesn't care or understand the costs of operating a business.

On another note, websites are great but the bottom line is they will not save a poor operator. Websites require a lot of work and planning to be successful and most poor operators are not willing to invest either. So once again, this continuous preaching that every florist must have a website will not save all the failing shops. More than likely it will simply provide them with one more "injustice" to complain about......"How come the big flower websites rank higher than mine?"

 

[keith]

Why pick a day? just stop accepting their orders today and little by little their stream will dry up.

When enough businesses (not florists) realize that they are supporting their own demise they will stop filling the OG crap and the beast will wither.

True, getting 20 florists to agree on anything is never going to happen, but as each business realizes the end result they will make a necessary decision and this model will die.

I don't see a date making much difference, the OG's can survive a single date, make a movement and maybe it will have an impact.

Keep up the message, it will win one day!

Keith

 

[Hal Conklin]

Keith you have a tool that controls what you get and dont get and who from. Its a true advantage on not having to worry from day to day or price. Need to spread the word about MAS Direct !!!

 

[keith]

Hal, I love the MAS and am very happy with the ability to simply never see those order from anyone who is "working" the system. MAS is great! Since I turned over the refusal process to my MAS system I have a lot less work and I just add up the reject fees and get a credit from the WS at the end of the month. Way less hassle.

I am truly disapointed that the florist representation at SAF is in the hands of 2 members who I do not accept orders from or send to. That they have become so prominent in our industry tells me that things are not looking good for my continued membership in SAF. I will find a organization that more closely represents my values and support them. Any ideas?

Cheers from Oregon,
Have a Captain and Coke and dream of the "Good old days!"

Keith