"Free to Screw the Customer"

[CHR]

There are a ton of informative threads here at FC. But it seems that a lot (not all) of these threads of information go unnoticed or have a lack of interest or passion.

Don't equate lack of discussion with 'lack of interest or passion'. Sometimes everything that needs to be said is said and additions just end up being 'me, too' posts.

Look how many members have entered the logo contest. Was there protracted discussion about it? Nope. Members read and entered. Takes a bit of passion to take the time to create an entry, no?

They/we also read and implement other ideas without a thread full of fireworks.

As far as this thread goes, when a flower buyer with a popular blog says "free to screw the customer" in his post title and "caveat frigging emptor" in the first sentence, I'd rather know than not and IMO his situation is discussion worthy - or I wouldn't have posted it.

.

 

[LJVF]

Don't equate lack of discussion with 'lack of interest or passion'. Sometimes everything that needs to be said is said and additions just end up being 'me, too' posts.

Look how many members have entered the logo contest. Was there protracted discussion about it? Nope. Members read and entered. Takes a bit of passion to take the time to create an entry, no?

They/we also read and implement other ideas without a thread full of fireworks.

As far as this thread goes, when a flower buyer with a popular blog says "free to screw the customer" in his post title and "caveat frigging emptor" in the first sentence, I'd rather know than not and IMO his situation is discussion worthy - or I wouldn't have posted it.

.

The logo thread is great and all, but what does it have to do with information to better our business or industry?

You've posted countless, informative threads that I think are very important, but even you said it yourself a few times, I'll paraphrase: "Sometimes I wonder if anyone are reading these?" May not be your exact words, but it went something like that. Well, I read almost every thread you start and almost every post you write because I respect your opinion, I hope the others are soaking it in as well.

I think you and I are going in circles on this one and no one can win this debate because it's based on opinions.

 

[Doug Munro]

Got to love you bloomzie. You never let facts get in the way when you post. Do some research and you can see that during the days of the old SAF board, FTD membership in the U.S. was over 20,000.

Today the U.S. FTD membership is around 12,000.

Wow, nothings changed, No one left.

Bloomzie, love the way you research your posts.

I recently heard a stat which I will admit up front I have not verified personally, however it did come from what I feel is a reliable source. Since I have not verified this, maybe someone on this board has.

The stat was that 20 years ago their were 44,000 retails florists in the USA and today there are about 20,000.

I suspect that this in itself might have a lot to do with the decrease in WS membership.

The other reality that most certainly has to be affecting WS membership is the advent of direct shippers. Proflowers did not exist a decade ago, recently the company sold for over $600 million, and they are just one of dozens if not hundreds of direct shippers.

Last but not least are changes in technology, cheap long distance, credit card availability, and the internet. Not only has this given the consumer the ability to perform the function of a wire service, but more worrisome for the floral industry is that it has opened up the field of out of town gift delivery to virtually any product imaginable.

At one time if you had not planned properly, purchased and shipped an out of town gift weeks in advance, it simply was not getting there in time for the occasion. Virtually the only gift deliverable across the country (or world) on very short notice was flowers. The playing field is entirely different today, jewelry, chocolates, food, crystal, electronics, you name it can be shipped anywhere within a day or two. Worse yet some items offer same day delivery.

As well, unlike sending a floral gift the consumer actually gets what they order when buying a gift from other retail sectors. No substitutions, no faulty workmanship, and the product generally comes with a warranty from a manufacturer who will stand behind it.

So as is typical with our industry we continue to try to lay blame on someone other than ourselves while our industry loses ground with every passing day.

 

[RC in Dayton and Cincinnati]

So as is typical with our industry we continue to try to lay blame on someone other than ourselves while our industry loses ground with every passing day.

And Doug, exactly who are you laying blame on?

 

[sfox]

I recently heard a stat which I will admit up front I have not verified personally, however it did come from what I feel is a reliable source. Since I have not verified this, maybe someone on this board has.

The stat was that 20 years ago their were 44,000 retails florists in the USA and today there are about 20,000.

I suspect that this in itself might have a lot to do with the decrease in WS membership.

The other reality that most certainly has to be affecting WS membership is the advent of direct shippers. Proflowers did not exist a decade ago, recently the company sold for over $600 million, and they are just one of dozens if not hundreds of direct shippers.

Last but not least are changes in technology, cheap long distance, credit card availability, and the internet. Not only has this given the consumer the ability to perform the function of a wire service, but more worrisome for the floral industry is that it has opened up the field of out of town gift delivery to virtually any product imaginable.

At one time if you had not planned properly, purchased and shipped an out of town gift weeks in advance, it simply was not getting there in time for the occasion. Virtually the only gift deliverable across the country (or world) on very short notice was flowers. The playing field is entirely different today, jewelry, chocolates, food, crystal, electronics, you name it can be shipped anywhere within a day or two. Worse yet some items offer same day delivery.

As well, unlike sending a floral gift the consumer actually gets what they order when buying a gift from other retail sectors. No substitutions, no faulty workmanship, and the product generally comes with a warranty from a manufacturer who will stand behind it.

So as is typical with our industry we continue to try to lay blame on someone other than ourselves while our industry loses ground with every passing day.

Great post Doug, but what the hell did it have to do with my answer to bloomz?

 

[bloomz]

What did your answer to me have to do with the topic at hand Fox?

You changed topics on me - did you think no one would notice?

Or maybe you didn't notice...

I've noticed you have a hard time staying on topic, as well as remembering what was said about 5 minutes ago.....


No I understood Doug's post completely - he was answering your off topic post.

 

[Doug Munro]

And Doug, exactly who are you laying blame on?

RC,

I personally am not laying blame on anyone for how this industry has changed. The reality is we are but one of many industries that have been adversely affected by changes in communication and technology.

However those that don't adjust to these changes and find ways to take advantage of them will have no one to blame but themselves if they fail.

Too often on this board blame for the changes this industry is undergoing are laid directly at the feet of the wire services, order gathers, direct shippers, wholesalers, etc. Seldom if ever is any blame ever laid upon the front line of this industry, the retail florist.

My point all along has simply been that although we all need to be aware of these changes continuously whining about them will not improve our lot. So rather than expend all of this energy on talking about ways to accelerate the demise of the wire services or rid the industry of order gathers, why not simply focus on providing better service and value to the consumer?

The simple answer is one that we already all know, it is always easier to for an individual to whine about about the situation than to actually get around to improving his personal lot.

Take a look at this board for example.....
On it we have a number of the industries leaders ( I note the use of AIFD behind many names) yet the most active threads tend to be negative ones geared towards wire services or order gatherers.

When was the last time a thread was started to join forces and actually do some marketing to the consumer? To sell our industry?

My guess it would not garner enough interest to last 24 hours. If you think I am overly negative, start one and see how long it runs before someone starts pounding on the evil empire.

 

[CHR]

Great idea Doug. Start one and we'll see. :>

 

[Doug Munro]

Great post Doug, but what the hell did it have to do with my answer to bloomz?

Sfox,

It was intended to point out that one of the reasons the wires services have a shrinking membership base is pretty simple.

There are less potential members!

This one does not take a mathematician to figure out.

I have been under the opinion for many years that it is only a matter of time before the florist2florist portion of traditional wire services goes the way of the dinosaur......extinct or at the very least on the endangered species list. I believe this simply because technology will be the death of them. They was a need for them at one time when there was no practical way to move money over great distances between consumer and florist, or florist to florist. But that day is long gone.

I also firmly believe the wire services themselves know this, the proof of that is the ever increasing variety of services they are offering and their continuing move to deal directly with the consumer. they are attempting to shift the focus of their business to avoid waking up one day to find they are no longer needed.

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

RC,

I personally am not laying blame on anyone for how this industry has changed. The reality is we are but one of many industries that have been adversely affected by changes in communication and technology.

However those that don't adjust to these changes and find ways to take advantage of them will have no one to blame but themselves if they fail.

Too often on this board blame for the changes this industry is undergoing are laid directly at the feet of the wire services, order gathers, direct shippers, wholesalers, etc. Seldom if ever is any blame ever laid upon the front line of this industry, the retail florist.

I'll take the blame...I'm part of the problem, I didn't pay enough 'attention" to the above in my attempt to retain my consistency with what I do.....and the secret vendetta I have with the wire services....
Doug, there's a very good reason why we're down to less than 20 thousand florists...many shut down, and the remainder wised up...ONLY 20 thousand more to go.....the wire services "released" the high quality standards REQUIRED to be a member in favour of their bottom line...I'm afraid, THAT in itself, is evil, and has been the LARGEST single contributor to the "failures" of our industry!!

 

[CHR]

I have been under the opinion for many years that it is only a matter of time before the florist2florist portion of traditional wire services goes the way of the dinosaur......extinct or at the very least on the endangered species list.

Absolutely agree.

Most florists express that F2F has been decreasing steadily over the last 10 years.

I also firmly believe the wire services themselves know this, the proof of that is the ever increasing variety of services they are offering and their continuing move to deal directly with the consumer. they are attempting to shift the focus of their business to avoid waking up one day to find they are no longer needed.

Hence a broadening of florist services like POSs, credit card clearing and website hosting plus all the while being able to "see" the business patterns of their customers, the florists.

 

[Dazeal]

I have loved following this thread for 5 years and still I learn so much. Your feedback has helped me more than you will ever know.

Keep up the good fight real florists.

 

[sfox]

Good post Doug. It offers a valid point.

But could there be another reason for the falling numbers? Florists themselves having become more aware of the financial hazards of belonging to a wire service like FTD?

You mention..." This one does not take a mathematician to figure out." Well maybe it does take a mathematican.

Your point about the dwindling numbers of florists is one reason for decline. But if you look closer at the numbers, FTD has lost a larger number of florists than Teleflora. They were the undisputed membership leader.

My take on it is that along with the dwindling number of actual florists, internet boards like this one have allowed florists the ability to communicate and that has impacted the membership in wire services. In the "old" days, the best way to communicate was by attending a FTD convention. These were a very valuable avenue to share ideas, but even at their height, participation was very low.

And going back to your original remark that started all this posting, pointing out the drawbacks of a wire service is a valuable thing. The reason I focus on FTD is that since it was sold, it for the most part, has been a stock company. By being a stock company, the managment focuses on bringing value to the stock holders, themselves the management and to the owners. The role of florists was changed for that of a member to that of a revenue stream.

I myself realized that years before. The wire services were never a large factor for my companys existence. But even today, to many florists fail to realize this. And as more and more florists join this board bringing up that point is stilll necessary.

So when you post about moving on to other topics and make it seem that talking about the wire services as old news and not worth discussing, you are both right and wrong. To the old timers on this board and others, most of the message is old news, but to the new people who daily join this group, it still might have value.

 

[twiggy]

So when you post about moving on to other topics and make it seem that talking about the wire services as old news and not worth discussing, you are both right and wrong. To the old timers on this board and others, most of the message is old news, but to the new people who daily join this group, it still might have value.

It does have great value to myself and other small shops out in the sticks, we are islands out here and finding a place like this where many successful businesses are represented and expressing their opinions is.. well, it's like a life line..
I've been a member for a while, and sometimes tire of the threads that are reduced to people just wanting 'the last word' - but overall these dicussions are a great value to me and I would think many of the newcomers who (maybe or not) don't have the opportunity to express their concerns and opinions, or hear opinions that are different ..

 

[Flore]

RC,

Seldom if ever is any blame ever laid upon the front line of this industry, the retail florist.

My point all along has simply been that although we all need to be aware of these changes continuously whining about them will not improve our lot. So rather than expend all of this energy on talking about ways to accelerate the demise of the wire services or rid the industry of order gathers, why not simply focus on providing better service and value to the consumer?

The simple answer is one that we already all know, it is always easier to for an individual to whine about about the situation than to actually get around to improving his personal lot.

Take a look at this board for example.....
On it we have a number of the industries leaders ( I note the use of AIFD behind many names) yet the most active threads tend to be negative ones geared towards wire services or order gatherers.

When was the last time a thread was started to join forces and actually do some marketing to the consumer? To sell our industry?

My guess it would not garner enough interest to last 24 hours. If you think I am overly negative, start one and see how long it runs before someone starts pounding on the evil empire.

As a retail florist, I take offense to your statements.

I actually did post a reply to this thread with a solution that I think would help out fellow local florists by, at the very least, getting some conversation started about how we can do something about the situation.

However, since this thread has been "hijacked" by some of the big-guy, old-timers who are too busy trying to get the last word, smaller, newbie florists, like myself, are either too threatened to respond to the ideas I suggested, or my reply got lost in this thread. It's frustrating, to say the least.

Personally, the only cross I have to bear with WS and OGs are the deceptive internet marketing campaigns. I could get much better ranking if it weren't for the non-existent local florists in my community. They even go as far as adding local addresses to their names to make them look like local florists. One uses the address of the local library!!

Hopefully, one of the "hijackers" will read this reply and give us little guys a chance to speak.

 

[LJVF]

Your point about the dwindling numbers of florists is one reason for decline. But if you look closer at the numbers, FTD has lost a larger number of florists than Teleflora. They were the undisputed membership leader.

Didn't Teleflora become the "membership leader" more because of acquisitions and mergers than because of FTD losing members? With that said, I tend to agree that FTD could be losing members at a faster rate than Teleflora.

And going back to your original remark that started all this posting, pointing out the drawbacks of a wire service is a valuable thing. The reason I focus on FTD is that since it was sold, it for the most part, has been a stock company. By being a stock company, the managment focuses on bringing value to the stock holders, themselves the management and to the owners. The role of florists was changed for that of a member to that of a revenue stream.

I myself realized that years before. The wire services were never a large factor for my companys existence. But even today, to many florists fail to realize this. And as more and more florists join this board bringing up that point is stilll necessary.

So when you post about moving on to other topics and make it seem that talking about the wire services as old news and not worth discussing, you are both right and wrong. To the old timers on this board and others, most of the message is old news, but to the new people who daily join this group, it still might have value.

I think yours and many others points of view are very important. We all learn from each by discussing and debating, but do those that aren't as out spoken really understand? There seems to be so much weight put on the evils of wire services that a struggling florist may be focusing too much on them as the reason for their failures. Seems that many that are the most out spoken against the wire services are still members of these same wire services and are some of the most healthiest florists in the industry. So perhaps the unhealthy and healthy florist need to put just as much, if not more energy into other ideas and philosophies to better evolve with the shifting paradigm.

One thing that the wire services have done, is that they recognized that things are no longer the way they used to be and have implemented a business plan to change and adapt to this shift so they put themselves in a position to survive and hopefully thrive. Are we florists doing the same?

 

[SpringCity]

As a retail florist, I take offense to your statements.

I actually did post a reply to this thread with a solution that I think would help out fellow local florists by, at the very least, getting some conversation started about how we can do something about the situation.

However, since this thread has been "hijacked" by some of the big-guy, old-timers who are too busy trying to get the last word, smaller, newbie florists, like myself, are either too threatened to respond to the ideas I suggested, or my reply got lost in this thread. It's frustrating, to say the least.

Personally, the only cross I have to bear with WS and OGs are the deceptive internet marketing campaigns. I could get much better ranking if it weren't for the non-existent local florists in my community. They even go as far as adding local addresses to their names to make them look like local florists. One uses the address of the local library!!

Hopefully, one of the "hijackers" will read this reply and give us little guys a chance to speak.

Go flore, I'm with ya.

In addition, re the comment Doug made about how there are no positive threads here, there are TONS of threads on great design and marketing ideas, if you choose to notice them. So people have strong opinions about WS, big deal. I also personally know florists on here who are working their butts off for alternatives to the status quo but again, not many notice.

 

[LJVF]

Personally, the only cross I have to bear with WS and OGs are the deceptive internet marketing campaigns. I could get much better ranking if it weren't for the non-existent local florists in my community. They even go as far as adding local addresses to their names to make them look like local florists. One uses the address of the local library!!

Hopefully, one of the "hijackers" will read this reply and give us little guys a chance to speak.

Yes, search engine rankings are a problem for the florist. But so many are clueless about the inner workings of the internet search engines, that it's like taking candy from a baby for the savvy OG's and wire services. Some do it honestly, some do it dishonestly, but it is the reality of competition in any industry.

With effort, any local florist have the power to strengthen their position in Google, Yahoo and the others.

 

[lori042499]

As a retail florist, I take offense to your statements.

I actually did post a reply to this thread with a solution that I think would help out fellow local florists by, at the very least, getting some conversation started about how we can do something about the situation.

However, since this thread has been "hijacked" by some of the big-guy, old-timers who are too busy trying to get the last word, smaller, newbie florists, like myself, are either too threatened to respond to the ideas I suggested, or my reply got lost in this thread. It's frustrating, to say the least.

Personally, the only cross I have to bear with WS and OGs are the deceptive internet marketing campaigns. I could get much better ranking if it weren't for the non-existent local florists in my community. They even go as far as adding local addresses to their names to make them look like local florists. One uses the address of the local library!!

Hopefully, one of the "hijackers" will read this reply and give us little guys a chance to speak.

Anyone here is free to speak anything they want....I am still not understanding this afraid to speak stuff...So what if Bloomz and Sfox get into a pissing match, why does this prevent anyone from saying what they think.....and even if they disagree who cares, say what you wnat to say and see what comes of it....if noone responds noone is interested, there are many things I say that go unnoticed and so many more that go very noticed sometimes I am on the mark and sometimes I sound as if I don't have any right running a business...it never stops me from speaking what I think, I am always hoping that when I have wacked ideas, someone shoots me down and brings me back to planet Earth, but the silence speaks volumes on those situations and it usually works just as well, as long as I take the hint...

My point is that 4 years ago when I joined here I had some very naive thoughts about our industry, I still do on many fronts, I have grown so much from my interactions here I cannot tell you, I would have never grown as much without the even exchange of ideas if I just sat back and read instead of getting involved and having my ideas "corrected" or rebutted...some ideas I changed some stayed the same, some I am considering different information, information I may never have had if I didn't open up dialog...

They say the only stupid question is the one you never ask, this is true of ideas also, the only bad idea is the one that is great that stays locked inside your brain never to see the light of day...Please folks, do not be afraid to put your ideas out there...the worst that can happen is people don't like your idea, or don't think it will work, or criticize it, or love it and improve on it and make it wonderful...Whatever happens it is a learning experience....

 

[Flore]

With effort, any local florist have the power to strengthen their position in Google, Yahoo and the others.

Agreed. I spend a lot of my time on SEO. I try to differentiate myself through my custom website as well.
But, as I said, I'd love to see OGs THAT USE DECEPTIVE MARKETING TRYING TO POSE AS A LOCAL FLORIST go away so I wouldn't have to spend as much time as I do. And, yes, I even have spent my time complaining to Yahoo, etc., when I see a deceptive search result. And, yes, they have removed them, but a couple months later, they're back