Just one example of what is wrong with our industry

[BOSS]

I noticed you didn't answer the question.

You mean the "WHY" thing.... why they would use you?

For your current customer base... $ervicce...

For new customers... random luck on your part...

 

[BOSS]

BTW As far as order gatherers simply removing profit from the deal , I can only imagine that Proflowers says the same about florists. My point being that it all depends on what side of the fence you are on as to how you view the situation.

Is this an explanation as to how a middleman adds value to a transaction?

Proflowers is a different animal, garnering the majority of their revenue from direct shipping of product, basically a commodity broker... "fresh from the field" remember...

Walmart, may very well venture back into the floral arena someday that is understood. From the suppliers I have talked to, several said they would have to think long and hard about it as the margins were very slim, and dumpage (not paid for) was high.

 

[Knife's Wife]

The gentlemen who called me with the order earlier in this thread... He runs the trucks that supply Walmart and Sam's. Without going into detail...It did not appear that things were rosey any more (sales down)with Walmart and that they are setting up routes to deal directly with real florist and would contact me when he had something in place. Hmmm..

Joan

 

[Knife's Wife]

I know I’m getting in on the end of this, and I’m too busy to read more than 2 pages of posts, so I apologize if I repeat what someone else has said.

I want to ask those of you with wire services a question:

If you wanted to send flowers to your mother out of state, would you pay the wire service fees, look up a florist in a directory and type the order on the Merc, hit send, and wait anxiously hoping you get what you ordered for when you ordered it?

NO!

So why do you want your customers to use a service you wouldn’t use yourself?

I'm not sure that I am understanding this question right.

I have many times sent flowers to relatives, mother ect out of state. Rarely have i picked up the phone. I type on the Dove what I am looking for with a second choice and 3rd choice options and hit send. I try to sell all outgoing orders the same way. If there is not a second choice than I asked the florist to forward or refuse as customer has no second choice.

It is much better to have the order in print, then for someone to take the order by phone, not write down all the details and then hope that they remembered what I was asking for.

Joan

When someone orders from my site I think it is pretty clear what amount is going to the flowers and or container and what is going applied to getting it delivered. When they place it for out of my delivery area they can cleary see that they will pay $2.00 more for delivery but there is no "convenience fee" for taking thier order.

The lines of understanding are much more blurred for customers with regards to OG and Wire Services. The use of the word "service fee" is not understood by many outside of the florist business, and there is not a clear understanding of just how much of their order is being transfered to the one filling the order. Hell, most consumers do not even understand that the ordergather is not going to deliver it themselves and that they are just passing it on to someone who will.

I imagine that if people knew that the results would be the same, in most cases better if they just placed the order with the florist directly and that they could save money and get the same product that they would never use an ordergather again.

Fixing the wire service is never going to happpen, deceptive order gathering is not going to go away, the customer is the only one who has the ability to make a change, I believe that they want to, with education they would gladly do it.

If we educated the consumer and then only had to compete with the other local florist in our area for orders, don't you think that that would be easier, and less expensive, and more profitable for all good florist?

Joan

 

[Doug Munro]

I know I’m getting in on the end of this, and I’m too busy to read more than 2 pages of posts, so I apologize if I repeat what someone else has said.

I want to ask those of you with wire services a question:

If you wanted to send flowers to your mother out of state, would you pay the wire service fees, look up a florist in a directory and type the order on the Merc, hit send, and wait anxiously hoping you get what you ordered for when you ordered it?

NO!

So why do you want your customers to use a service you wouldn’t use yourself?

Unfortunately this is not a fair question. It's like asking a furniture retailer if when they need home furnishings themselves would they pay retail or buy directly from the manufacturer.

Then stating "why would you expect your customers to pay retail if you won't"

Of course consumers don't like paying service fees, I'm a consumer and I don't , I don't like paying taxes either. In fact to go a step further most of us don't even like paying mark ups when we purchase something, once you as a consumer know how much something is marked up it always seems too high.

I believe what will occur within a short time is the demise of the wire service fee, not because retailers feel it is wrong but simply because it is much more difficult to justify on the internet. A local retailer with a website has no need to collect it as they are getting full stroke on the sale , with more local florist with websites the service fee is beginning to stick out like the proverbial sore thumb.

As for getting "what you ordered for when you ordered it". Assuming the order is transmitted by Mercury and there are no technical issues if the product is not delivered when and as ordered, the blame lays with the fulfilling shop. I have said it time and time again, but I will repeat myself once more.....

"The Achilles Heel of the wire business is the fulfiller"

In what other industry would it be acceptable to substitute a product the way the flower industry does. There is absolutely no consistency or standards as to what the consumer is actually delivered

 

[duanermb]

"The Achilles Heel of the wire business is the fulfiller"

In what other industry would it be acceptable to substitute a product the way the flower industry does. There is absolutely no consistency or standards as to what the consumer is actually delivered

Yeeeeesh! That might hurt in the morning!

I agree though, but it's a symptom of the real issues I am sorry to say.

Greed from the wires, and greed, or a desire to stay alive from the fillers who could not do it on their own, or relied on their WS or franchises to support them where there was little to no desire to help... (due to greed and a desire to survive)

All parties are guilty, and the system is sweating the bad. The good will remain.

(You know who is succeeding right now through the downturn. Those who don't care about huge profits and are investing in their business so that they come out thriving after the downturn. Unfortunately for most, it is only those who had resources going in that can do this)

 

[Mikey the Flower Guy]

Doug..you are on quite a roll....so, your "suggestion" IS, that each and every shop that fails to fill as shown is capable of carrying each and every product, in each colour, open just at the right moment, to fulfill each and every order taken from thousands of pictures, and described by people who have sometimes NO IDEA the difference between a pansy and a campanulla??
And each and every shop, is in the same time zone, to definitely "get back to you" when they don't??
And every shop is blessed with enough staff, enough drivers, enough forward wisdom, and access to product, to fill each and every order as shown??
Wire services, and their prodigy OG's have created a monster, to whom NO SENSIBLE shop owner would "answer" to willingly, let alone, play on a level field of business.
IF YOU, "capture" an order, BUT, are unwilling, or unable to "fill" one FOR ME, I have very simple rules..."fill it yourself".....
What YOU are trying to circumvent, is that the field of play is skewed.

 

[duanermb]

Doug..you are on quite a roll....so, your "suggestion" IS, that each and every shop that fails to fill as shown is capable of carrying each and every product, in each colour, open just at the right moment, to fulfill each and every order taken from thousands of pictures, and described by people who have sometimes NO IDEA the difference between a pansy and a campanulla??
And each and every shop, is in the same time zone, to definitely "get back to you" when they don't??
And every shop is blessed with enough staff, enough drivers, enough forward wisdom, and access to product, to fill each and every order as shown??
Wire services, and their prodigy OG's have created a monster, to whom NO SENSIBLE shop owner would "answer" to willingly, let alone, play on a level field of business.
IF YOU, "capture" an order, BUT, are unwilling, or unable to "fill" one FOR ME, I have very simple rules..."fill it yourself".....
What YOU are trying to circumvent, is that the field of play is skewed.

Per the above, $1 million plus shops can do this, the rest cannot. That is the state of the industry, and hence the current check in the industry, also as per the above comments. (The number may be higher than that - yet another reason for our current WS free policy)

 

[theRKF]

I find it interesting that the 2 biggest Canadian OGs on this board are getting together on this one.

Hey ... I resembled that remark (back in the good old days before I went to work for FTD).

Maybe they've met their match and have to tag team...

Maybe I should dedicate a page to them on FD...

Um ... if there's any tag teaming going on, it's the anti-WS crowd who smells blood every time an order gets screwed up.

I'm in favour of the crappy-filler thread. I'm in favour of shining the light on anyone hurting the industry - whether skimmer, deceiver, curtailer, or plain old incompetent.

Ryan

 

[CHR]

"The Achilles Heel of the wire business is the fulfiller"

In what other industry would it be acceptable to substitute a product the way the flower industry does. There is absolutely no consistency or standards as to what the consumer is actually delivered

Wrong.

The Achilles heel is trying to enforce a top-down (huge) range of products at set prices on a dynamic perishable goods industry .

Offer what florists are actually carrying at their prices (like Hotels.com or Expedia.com or Travelocity.com) and now we're cooking with gas.

You can't make what you don't have in stock for same day or next-day delivery and be profitable. Expectations on the part of WSs & affiliate resellers are wholly unrealistic. Those unrealistic expectations translate to setting up consumers for unrealistic expectations (and disappointments), too.

Why else do you think FTD.com pulled a bunch of designs from their Premium line? Can't deliver what was promised....

Were the go-to florists asked if they could make & delivery those offerings on a daily basis? I think 'no'?

All it would take would be for shops to indicate what they could deliver daily, and provide their own prices, and many of the problems would be gone.... but big senders insist on offering 300-400 designs delivered 'everywhere'.

Seems the wrong guys are setting the standards and expectations.

 

[bloomz]

Wrong on your wrong and raise you one.

I feature pretty much no bouquet on my site that can't be filled in any shop nationwide (that is a reasonble professional florist) - I think I have one old tropical sympathy image that is sometimes difficult to find, and if and when I can't find Birds - I contact the sender for sub instructions - I never just send "something".

I don't want to feature what I can't get delivered - that would be dumb IMO.

Like I said - I don't know how TF does it, cuz there's lots of not-in-stock stuff in many of their cookies.

That achilles heel wouldn't be so prominent if fillers just rejected what they can't fill, all the OG's would stop selling it, but you get many so hungry for orders they think it won't matter or the sender won't see it.

No sender wants to lose customers.

The standards should be set by the fillers for the senders to follow - that they aren't is another example of that very achilles heel.

:mobile::mobile::mobile:

I want to ask those of you with wire services a question:

If you wanted to send flowers to your mother out of state, would you pay the wire service fees, look up a florist in a directory and type the order on the Merc, hit send, and wait anxiously hoping you get what you ordered for when you ordered it?

NO!

So why do you want your customers to use a service you wouldn’t use yourself?

YES!

Why yes I would - knowing what I know about nationwide delivery I would indeed look up a florist in the directory vs crap shooting it on the internet.

Or, barring me being able to do it myself, I would find an honest OG and willingly order there and pay them the service fee for access to their preferred filler list.

 

[BOSS]

"The Achilles Heel of the wire business is the fulfiller"

I disagree as well...

IMHO it's at the point of sale, either by florists or order gatherers that sell from a image without reasonable expectation that the fulfilling florist would have that item in stock on any given day without the possibility to explain to the purchaser..."we can do...."....

Often we have customers call for a specific item, that are willing to wait a day for us to source it...but when you have a company that does not even touch flowers ever selling them, that's where the problem begins.

Removing the middleman from the transaction eliminates this issue.

 

[BOSS]

I feature pretty much no bouquet on my site that can't be filled in any shop nationwide (that is a reasonble professional florist) -

Really...what about THESE I don't know anyone that could do them "today"...

You don't show Orchids?? What's up with that...

The standards should be set by the fillers for the senders to follow - that they aren't is another example of that very achilles heel.

I'm surprised you actually said that... dang, we agree again...

 

[theRKF]

That achilles heel wouldn't be so prominent if fillers just rejected what they can't fill, all the OG's would stop selling it, but you get many so hungry for orders they think it won't matter or the sender won't see it.

No sender wants to lose customers.

The standards should be set by the fillers for the senders to follow - that they aren't is another example of that very achilles heel.

On the flip side - there is a component (not ALL, not a sweeping generalization, but a significant slice) of the filler crowd that would make me shudder if they controlled what was being sold. I'm imagining two great extremes of "all grannies, all the time" because it's cheaper to only stock carns & mums; and all over-priced exotics all the time as designers (again, emphasizing the some - you all know someone like I'm describing) would rather play floral jazz ("The Commitments" reference ) than produce what's in demand. I'm talking about the fillers who depend on the WS to produce orders because they can't/won't/don't market themselves and have such limited customer interaction they can only imagine through their rose-coloured glasses what John Q Public wants.

Successful business - OGs, B&M, etc - sell lots because they offer what people want, and come through on their promises. There seems to be a mutual disconnect between the senders and fillers - but the senders control the revenue, so the fillers will have to better communicate or learn to wean themselves off the tap.

Removing the middleman from the transaction eliminates this issue.

Removing the middleman would likely also remove most fillers from the transaction as well. Be careful what you wish for.

Florida is a great example: A filler state, lots of incoming - would seem to be a prime area for florists to get off their posteriors and create good websites to compete for those incoming orders and capture them directly. Having just completed a marketing sweep through Florida pushing our F20 sites I can tell you that most of the shops we talked to were rude, disinterested, had crappy websites (if at all) and couldn't even be bothered to compete. (Disclaimer: If you're from Florida and reading this, obviously you're not one of the clueless since you found FC We're not talking about you.)

Ryan

 

[lori042499]

On the flip side - there is a component (not ALL, not a sweeping generalization, but a significant slice) of the filler crowd that would make me shudder if they controlled what was being sold. I'm imagining two great extremes of "all grannies, all the time" because it's cheaper to only stock carns & mums; and all over-priced exotics all the time as designers (again, emphasizing the some - you all know someone like I'm describing) would rather play floral jazz ("The Commitments" reference ) than produce what's in demand. I'm talking about the fillers who depend on the WS to produce orders because they can't/won't/don't market themselves and have such limited customer interaction they can only imagine through their rose-coloured glasses what John Q Public wants.

Successful business - OGs, B&M, etc - sell lots because they offer what people want, and come through on their promises. There seems to be a mutual disconnect between the senders and fillers - but the senders control the revenue, so the fillers will have to better communicate or learn to wean themselves off the tap.



Removing the middleman would likely also remove most fillers from the transaction as well. Be careful what you wish for.

Florida is a great example: A filler state, lots of incoming - would seem to be a prime area for florists to get off their posteriors and create good websites to compete for those incoming orders and capture them directly. Having just completed a marketing sweep through Florida pushing our F20 sites I can tell you that most of the shops we talked to were rude, disinterested, had crappy websites (if at all) and couldn't even be bothered to compete. (Disclaimer: If you're from Florida and reading this, obviously you're not one of the clueless since you found FC We're not talking about you.)

Ryan

Ryan, just a quick thought on this, because you do deal with a lot of florist in general...do you find that this is the case most everywhere???

I find that florists as a whole as an industry contain lots of shops that are rude, don't care, incompetant, have crappy websites or un dealt with website, don't even have a clue what's on their tf or ftd hosted websites, don't care to check the prices on their websites and give different prices on the phone...are generally clueless...I believe that this is the achilles heel of the industry, the general malaise that runs so rampant within our industry is the real reason we are losing so much ground...within my own city I have been told that out of 6 flower shops only 2 are worth dealing with, mine being one of them and hear it more everyday..and it is all because I care to be here, I am friendly no matter what is going on, I am available and I know what I am doing....but if only 2 out of 6 in one city is the norm for the whole world, that is a sad state of affairs for the industry and I would bet that in some places it is even sadder than that...

 

[theRKF]

Ryan, just a quick thought on this, because you do deal with a lot of florist in general...do you find that this is the case most everywhere???

I find that florists as a whole as an industry contain lots of shops that are rude, don't care, incompetant, have crappy websites or un dealt with website, don't even have a clue what's on their tf or ftd hosted websites, don't care to check the prices on their websites and give different prices on the phone...are generally clueless...I believe that this is the achilles heel of the industry, the general malaise that runs so rampant within our industry is the real reason we are losing so much ground...within my own city I have been told that out of 6 flower shops only 2 are worth dealing with, mine being one of them and hear it more everyday..and it is all because I care to be here, I am friendly no matter what is going on, I am available and I know what I am doing....but if only 2 out of 6 in one city is the norm for the whole world, that is a sad state of affairs for the industry and I would bet that in some places it is even sadder than that...

It was definitely more noticeable in Florida. Although the majority of florists aren't too receptive to proactive marketing (and that's understandable) the shops in Florida were remarkably dismissive, rude, unaware and uninterested.

Ryan

 

[Doug Munro]

Yowser, I started the ball rolling on this one

I stand by my original statement.

Excuses, Excuses, Excuses........

Not enough staff, can't stock all the varieties, not enough delivery capacity..... and so on and so forth.

If a fulfiller does not have the ability to fill an order as sold, why do they accept it? Thats the real question.

It is also the solution.

If (and its a big if) fulfillers on a consistent basis turned down orders for product that was difficult or near impossible to fill, or was consistently under priced, the sending member would stop selling that product in quick order.

It does not take a brain surgeon to realize that there is no point in selling a product that can not be filled. As a sender these orders are extremely problematic for our company, the last thing we want to do is have to track down the original customer and explain that the order they placed can not be filled or requires more money. It is not very good customer service to say the least, and it throws a wrench into the gears particularly at busy holiday times. In fact our floral consultants regularly suggest items that we should remove simply because the item is difficult to fill or dies not provide enough money to the filling shop.

Unfortunately the reality tends to be that many fulfillers will never turn down an order regardless if they can fill it properly or not..

I have even had fulfillers explain to me personally that once we send them an order it is they prerogative to fill it as they see fit. What kind of stupidity is this?

- As a consumer would these same fulfillers accept a substitution on products they purchase everyday? Say a meal, or possibly clothing?

-As florists would they deal with a wholesaler or importer who substituted or delivered late on a regular basis under the guise that
" they couldn't possibly be expected to carry all varieties of flowers, they were short staffed, they didn't have enough delivery vehicles?

I could give dozens (hundreds) of examples of poor work, late deliveries, or insane substitutions. Carnations in place of lilies as a focal flower, mums substituted for white roses, plants in place of arrangements.....

The best yet is the one that stated after failing to make a deliver at Mother's Day that she "had to look after her own customers first".
Is the sending shop not actually a customer, lets walk through this scenario..... Shop A send shop B an order to fill, Shop B fill order and gets paid..... Sounds to me like Shop is a customer.

I realize that in general that this board is anti OG & WS, but fair is fair, fulfiller issues existed long before the advent of OG's or the changes in the wire business.

The reality is that the power to correct many of the issues that are posted on this board daily lies in the hands of the retail florist. Unfortunately it is always far easier to point a finger at the other guy and the OG's and WS's are very big and easily identifiable targets.

 

[BOSS]

insane substitutions. Carnations in place of lilies as a focal flower, mums substituted for white roses, plants in place of arrangements.....

Obviously unacceptable to darn near everyone....

I realize that in general that this board is anti OG & WS, but fair is fair, fulfiller issues existed long before the advent of OG's or the changes in the wire business.

I think I'm the only anti-og one here

But that said Doug, like I pointed out with regard to our friend Bloomzie, he has his physical address on every page of his site, and IMO that makes him legit and the consumer responsible.

My issue is with those like Da Weasel that claim to be located in my or any other city, directly delivering to said city, or those that list themselves as a local florist and have no storefront anywhere. To me there is a huge difference between dOG and OG.

 

[LJVF]

The fillers blame the senders, the senders blame the fillers, the bottom line is that the system that is in place now is failing. Senders and fillers are burning each other, but the one that is being burned the most, is the most important of all, OUR customer.

After years of debate and negative progress, we're moving backwards folks. It's ok to be disappointed in what's not fair, but let's not whine and cry about it. Life's not fair. I feel we should focus on what's best for our individual businesses. Serving the customer.

*If you get an order that is skimmed, ask for more $ and/or FOR/REJ.

*If you get an order you can't fill, ask if substitutions are ok and/or just FOR/REJ.

*If you're losing money being a wire service member, then quit.

*If you're dissatisfied with being a wire service member, then quit.


Don't let anger, greed or both cloud your business sense. The sender and the recipients (our customers) are the one's that get caught in the crossfire.

Just my opinion...

 

[lori042499]

I stand by my original statement.

Excuses, Excuses, Excuses........

Not enough staff, can't stock all the varieties, not enough delivery capacity..... and so on and so forth.

If a fulfiller does not have the ability to fill an order as sold, why do they accept it? Thats the real question.

It is also the solution.

If (and its a big if) fulfillers on a consistent basis turned down orders for product that was difficult or near impossible to fill, or was consistently under priced, the sending member would stop selling that product in quick order.

It does not take a brain surgeon to realize that there is no point in selling a product that can not be filled. As a sender these orders are extremely problematic for our company, the last thing we want to do is have to track down the original customer and explain that the order they placed can not be filled or requires more money. It is not very good customer service to say the least, and it throws a wrench into the gears particularly at busy holiday times. In fact our floral consultants regularly suggest items that we should remove simply because the item is difficult to fill or dies not provide enough money to the filling shop.

Unfortunately the reality tends to be that many fulfillers will never turn down an order regardless if they can fill it properly or not..

I have even had fulfillers explain to me personally that once we send them an order it is they prerogative to fill it as they see fit. What kind of stupidity is this?

- As a consumer would these same fulfillers accept a substitution on products they purchase everyday? Say a meal, or possibly clothing?

-As florists would they deal with a wholesaler or importer who substituted or delivered late on a regular basis under the guise that
" they couldn't possibly be expected to carry all varieties of flowers, they were short staffed, they didn't have enough delivery vehicles?

I could give dozens (hundreds) of examples of poor work, late deliveries, or insane substitutions. Carnations in place of lilies as a focal flower, mums substituted for white roses, plants in place of arrangements.....

The best yet is the one that stated after failing to make a deliver at Mother's Day that she "had to look after her own customers first".
Is the sending shop not actually a customer, lets walk through this scenario..... Shop A send shop B an order to fill, Shop B fill order and gets paid..... Sounds to me like Shop is a customer.

I realize that in general that this board is anti OG & WS, but fair is fair, fulfiller issues existed long before the advent of OG's or the changes in the wire business.

The reality is that the power to correct many of the issues that are posted on this board daily lies in the hands of the retail florist. Unfortunately it is always far easier to point a finger at the other guy and the OG's and WS's are very big and easily identifiable targets.

Doug,
Within the industry as a whole, I truly believe you are correct....When we sign that contract we are taking on the burden of filling as close as possible with an occasional sub, I make subs but they are always within the range of keeping the same integrity as seen in the arrangement, should I have doubts the order gets rejected or forwarded that is what I signed on for....I expect other shops to do the same when I send out, I have worked for many shops that didn't couldn't or wouldn't follow the recipes or even the pictures, deplorable decisions at best in regards to subs and floral arrangement integrity...here I will say that everyone you hear from cannot fathom doing any of this, because we all have a whole lot of integrity and morals, thai is why we question one sde of the coin and not our filling side...because we live within our worlds and not others, I am sure that many people on here would be agast to see on a day to day basis how other shops from their own are run and how they handle their wire orders...

I do believe that fillers are part of the problem...there are lots of parts of the problem, but to those of us here the major problems that affect us is the order taking side this is why you hear it so much...In 26 years, I have gotten very few complaints on my filled arrangements because I am smart when it comes to subs and I make the arrangements look like the pictures...I have gotten far more complaints on outs because of bad fillers, and I regularly need to reject or forward because items are not available, too expensive, underpriced, over promised, taken by an idiot and I want no responsibility for it, no delivery, etc and this comes from og's and real florists alike, I actually have more problems with idiot real florists than I do with og's because I hold them to a higher standard because they should just know better, period!!!!!