Announcement Change Is Here!

[CHERYL BAKIN]

Cathy:
You mis-read my post. I'm not talking about the $100. initial fee -- but what is the plan "down the road" that you, ryan and Mark keep alluding to.

I'll post my post again, so that you don't have to hunt.


Cathy, we are asking questions regarding where this "future direction" is headed because many of us, like you, Mark and Ryan, are concerned about the state of our industry. If we had some idea where and when this is headed, some of us might, just for instance:
Not go to SAF in Washington, DC in March and save those funds to join in something here ........ or.....
Not upgrade or change POS systems....
.because that type of decision could impact our ability financially to participate or not to participate in whatever it is that you are planning.

It's about deciding about the best use of funds.....both short-term and long term....resources are limited....and people what to make the best decisions that they can, based upon good, sound information............and for the record, I stopped listening to the "just trust me...it will be Ok" routine when I was about 13.
If you cannot or do not want to post it here, then send it via a PM or call me.)

As several posters have stated...money is tight...everywhere.
We need to make informed decisions, based upon facts presented....not more "trust me, it will be all right" stuff.

(sorry...bad color choice, and I don't know how to fix that).

 

[CHR]

The plan right now is to keep the FC doors open. Isn't that worth something to you?

 

[CHERYL BAKIN]

Sorry, Cathy, but that brief explanation is not enough information, based upon what Ryan, Mark and you have posted earlier.

If you have a plan.....then let's hear it. What, in general terms does it entail? Or could it entail?
If your plan is based upon the number of subscribers buying in...then state that to us.

Beyond the initial $100 buy-in, you are asking us to commit to an unknown venture, with an totally unknown amount of buy-in, and some unknown point in the future.

So sorry...but I'd like to hear a few more concrete details please.

Again, if you are not willing to post it for the 3,400 FC current members, then send me a private message.

 

[CHR]

Is the information you've gleaned and the networking you've made from FC in the last year worth a $100 vote for the future? That's the essential question.

 

[bloomz]

I do not recall, nor can I find in the FC TOU, or TOS, any reference or other mention that tells me that FC, Ryan Freeman, or Stryder owns the combined knowledge, tips, artistic design, etc, that I and others have posted here over the last many years........nor do I find that I have given up those rights knowlingly or unknowlingly.

Sorry Ryan....but Intellectual Property is an intangible asset that consists of Human knowledge and ideas. I, individually and collectively, did not give up my rights to our ideas and postings to you or to anyone else........for your current scheme of financial gain via a new paid forum.

If you want to have a Paid for forum....that's fine. You are the host, you are entitled.

You are not, however, entitled to continue to take or to use our previous efforts in a previously FREE FORUM for your financial gain. This forum, as it exists now, should be shut down. You are essentially starting a new forum..... and you need to do so witthout the use of the posts & knowledge of those of us who have not granted continued use to you.

I concur and give no permission, nor ever have, for my postings to be used in any for profit situation.

Terms of use (saved) never specified otherwise nor did I ever agree to my opinions and knowlege to be used for financial gain.

I never agreed to any copyright release with regard to my copyright, as I did not enter into any agreement on use or unlimited use of my copyright - no contract ever existed.

My postings are my property. Copyright automatically belongs to the creator of the work, unless a contract was entered into granting otherwise.

I request all my 9365 postings be removed from this forum before it becomes a paid membership/for profit forum.

Thank you and good luck.

 

[goldfish]

Is the information you've gleaned and the networking you've made from FC in the last year worth a $100 vote for the future? That's the essential question.

For some members, that's THE question and nothing else. Because for them, it's no different from purchasing an access to information database. In addition to the social networking opportunity FC could provide, these people consider $100/yr as a fair price to pay to get these info and opportunities.

For other people, at least to me, the question goes beyond that. And that's what I want Ryan, you and Boss to understand, because I'm pretty sure that you guys haven't looked at this way.

The way I look at this $100 is that it's equivalent to purchasing a membership for a fitness club where members coach each other. There will be a few paid instructors, to be sure, but most of the "coaching" will be done by the paid members themselves.

So naturally, I want to know how this model can work. I have not seen any membership-based community where the benefits come mostly from the expertise and knowledge of the paid members. If you look at the new FC this way, I hope you understand how bizarre this model looks to some people. Why would anyone pay to join a fitness club and coach other members?

I could, however, justify the expense if I knew that something concrete and specific will come down the road. In that case, of course I would love to jump into the ship at the earliest, rather than playing a spoiler's role. So that's why I wanted to know what plans you have in mind.

If you do have these plans but are reluctant to share them in public, I understand. But in that case, I hope you also understand that there's nothing for me to convince me to jump into the ship at this moment.

There are also philosophical issues in which I have reached a conclusion, I think, different from FC admins. In a nut shell, I tend to believe that free, or almost free, forum is a better environment for helping each other, as it involves no monetary incentive. For example, in the fitness-club analogy above, imagine the club membership is free and everyone is welcome. This club, I believe, will have a plenty of members willing to coach other members. There really is nothing to lose, because there is no fee.

Finally, since I'm a realist as you know, I sure understand some funds must be raised to get anything significant done. But money is not the only thing FC needs; I think you need a legitimate as well as robust decision-making mechanism, such as (hypothetically) member referendum or even simple voting by elected members.

While such mechanism might seem unnecessarily complicated and appear to hinder what *you* want to accomplish, the reality is that it tends to be the only way of controlling a sizable group of people who are not obligated to follow you (like employees). Of course, you can always say "it doesn't matter, as long as I have enough followers." But as a former student organizer myself, if you ever think this way, the power of organization tends to fade away, as people start to depart one after another.

 

[sandytf]

For some members, that's THE question and nothing else. Because for them, it's no different from purchasing an access to information database. In addition to the social networking opportunity FC could provide, these people consider $100/yr as a fair price to pay to get these info and opportunities.

For other people, at least to me, the question goes beyond that. And that's what I want Ryan, you and Boss to understand, because I'm pretty sure that you guys haven't looked at this way.

The way I look at this $100 is that it's equivalent to purchasing a membership for a fitness club where members coach each other. There will be a few paid instructors, to be sure, but most of the "coaching" will be done by the paid members themselves.

So naturally, I want to know how this model can work. I have not seen any membership-based community where the benefits come mostly from the expertise and knowledge of the paid members. If you look at the new FC this way, I hope you understand how bizarre this model looks to some people. Why would anyone pay to join a fitness club and coach other members?

I could, however, justify the expense if I knew that something concrete and specific will come down the road. In that case, of course I would love to jump into the ship at the earliest, rather than playing a spoiler's role. So that's why I wanted to know what plans you have in mind.

If you do have these plans but are reluctant to share them in public, I understand. But in that case, I hope you also understand that there's nothing for me to convince me to jump into the ship at this moment.

There are also philosophical issues in which I have reached a conclusion, I think, different from FC admins. In a nut shell, I tend to believe that free, or almost free, forum is a better environment for helping each other, as it involves no monetary incentive. For example, in the fitness-club analogy above, imagine the club membership is free and everyone is welcome. This club, I believe, will have a plenty of members willing to coach other members. There really is nothing to lose, because there is no fee.

Finally, since I'm a realist as you know, I sure understand some funds must be raised to get anything significant done. But money is not the only thing FC needs; I think you need a legitimate as well as robust decision-making mechanism, such as (hypothetically) member referendum or even simple voting by elected members.

While such mechanism might seem unnecessarily complicated and appear to hinder what *you* want to accomplish, the reality is that it tends to be the only way of controlling a sizable group of people who are not obligated to follow you (like employees). Of course, you can always say "it doesn't matter, as long as I have enough followers." But as a former student organizer myself, if you ever think this way, the power of organization tends to fade away, as people start to depart one after another.

Goldfish,

Your fitness center analogy doesn't make sense to me. How many fitness centers let you join for free? They can't because they have costs involved with providing the facility, equipment, insurance, employees, and the list goes on. I belong to my local Y and pay a monthly membership fee. It gives me access to the facility and equipment. If I want to take an aerobics class, have a personal trainer, or sign my kids up for swimming lessons it requires an addtional fee.

I see the monthly/yearly fee for Flowerchat as providing the facility. There are costs involved with providing this "facility" for our use. There may be extra "classes" later on to sign up for that require an addtional fee if you would like. Or, you can just stick with the basic membership and opt not to take the additional "classes". That's how I see the analogy.

Your analogy is based on an erroneous assumption that there are "free" fitness centers out there. There aren't.

 

[CelebrationGeneration]

I concur and give no permission, nor ever have, for my postings to be used in any for profit situation.

Really? Cause I could have SWORN this forum was comprised of business owners, giving/using advice to help each other with their BUSINESSES.

I mean, I'm assuming you've been on the giving end of the advice spectrum, too. I COULD be wrong, because it's been a very long time since I've been a regular here... but weren't you something of a troll? If you've never provided advice, ok... but if you've been posting anything that anyone else could possibly have been used to benefit their business, then guess what - yes, you have given permission for your postings to be used for at least SOME "for profit" situations. That being the whole point of Flowerchat from the beginning, really.

 

[steve]

Look this is crazy How many of you belong to the chamber of commerce? or one of the 1000s of BNI groups out there. You pay far more to be in those and in most casesprobably do not get as much out of it as you do here at flower Chat. Many here seem to be hung up on what the future holds beyond flower chat. well this weekend there are going to be several playoff football games with the goal having a chance to win the Super Bowl. What do you think the odds would be of winning the Super Bowl if I decide to publicly annouce my game plan to the opposing team???? There is no question in my mind that its worth the $100.00 to continue to share ideas with fellow florist and to hope that maybe something bigger can be spawned.

 

[RWK]

Time For Action
In October of 2002 I made a hasty decision. Frustrated with the bland and limited online networking options available to florists, and with 1 day remaining on my FTD membership, I decided to create a place where the colourful personalities of the floral industry could more easily represent themselves while networking with florists around the world. Thank you for doing so. Very few people/posters have said this simple phrase.

Over the past 7 years, FlowerChat has grown quickly to become (and remain) the most popular online destination for people in the floral industry. We have growers, wholesalers, florists, wire reps and service providers from all over the world regularly posting, reading and interacting with each other.
FlowerChat has achieved its purpose of hosting industry discussion. But now the time for discussion alone has past. The floral industry needs more than introspection, we need action. On this we agree.


What This Means For FlowerChat

Defining Professional
Many people have tried to define what a professional florist is. In reality, today’s industry encompasses members from all ends of the spectrum: traditional retailers, online marketers, home-based business, freelance artists and students. Add in the emergence of farm direct providers, international wholesalers, online auctions and specialty providers and it quickly becomes clear that this is not the floral industry of past generations. These new business models have made it difficult at times to define who should make up the membership of FlowerChat.

No matter what the industry, professionals from any trade are dedicated to their craft, and invest in their businesses through research, marketing and continuing education. In an effort to advance the cause of the floral industry, and to emphasize the professional nature of FlowerChat we will be implementing some changes and initiating some new activities.

New FlowerChat Membership Structure
Effective immediately, FlowerChat will be moving to a paid membership structure. I know this will come as a shock to many, and it does not come without a significant amount of consideration. My fear is that without taking this step, FlowerChat will forever be a place of discussion until there aren’t enough florists left to have a decent conversation. I have no illusions that everyone will be happy with this decision, but I believe in my heart that this is the right step to take.

By having a paid membership structure, the nature of FlowerChat will become more professional, and this will lead to better conversation. As a member of FlowerChat, you can know that you are involved in a community of people who take their participation in FlowerChat seriously as they have invested time and money to be here.

Membership Tiers
FlowerChat will be offering membership tiers for florists and vendors:
Florist Memberships: (introductory rates) This is the first bit of contention Ryan and needs to be explained better so the naysayers understand.

• Single account – suitable for retail florists, freelancers, online marketers and students
  $100/yr THIS IS TO BE A MEMBER OF FLOWERCHAT.COM PEOPLE - NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.
• Business account – suitable for retail florists, freelancers, online marketers and students – same access as the single account, but allows unlimited accounts for one business (ex: Business owner, spouse, 2 employees)
  $200/yr SAME AS ABOVE

Vendor Memberships:

• Vendor Account – suitable for wholesalers, growers, technology providers, service providers – allows multiple employee accounts (ex: sales / service reps), and special advertising access
  $500/yr THIS MEAN ENTITIES LIKE TELEFLORA, FTD, STRIDER, ETC.

End Of The Vetting Process
The introduction of the paid membership system will also mark the end of the voting in of applicants. Those who wish to join FlowerChat will have to agree to a new Terms of Service clearly defining the qualifications for membership. Those who violate the ToS requirements will be banned without a refund. The combination of ToS and paid membership will act as a deterrent for trolls and hobbyists. Apparently this was overlooked by all those talking about the current TOS..........There will be a new one which means the current one will be no good.

Premium Content
We are not taking this situation lightly. Asking members to adopt a paid subscription model means that we need to renew efforts at providing value. In addition to the improved community experience, we have arranged to begin providing unique content from respected sources. Beginning later this month we will be presenting practical advice articles from Jennifer Laycock (editor of Search Engine Guide and noted Social Media consultant), noted sales trainer Tim Huckabee (Floral Strategies) and award winning floral designer and educator Phil Rulloda. Additional authors will be added throughout the coming months. We DON'T HAVE STUFF LIKE THIS already !!!!! - The 100.00 goes toward helping to pay for these people I would think.

More Love
This also means Strider will be able to invest more time and resources in FlowerChat. What started as a whim has grown into a costly and time-consuming – yet infinitely rewarding – project. I am constantly amazed each time we have FC offline even for a few minutes at the number of emails and messages I receive asking when FC will return. Just as FlowerChat has become a part of the daily routine for many of you, the operation of FC has become a major part of our day. While a labour of love, we are also a business that has to balance our resources. Paid memberships will mean a more reliable revenue stream which in turn justifies more investment of time and resources on our part to make the FC experience even better and to recruit more florists to FlowerChat.


What This Means For Florists

A Voice For Florists
FlowerChat needs to evolve into a voice for florists delivering a clear message that buying flowers is a good choice. We are not looking to replace SAF or Flowers Canada, as both organizations fill vital roles in research, monitoring and influencing political policy and assisting members. Our goals will be defined in the areas of marketing florists to consumers, and assisting florists in improving their businesses.

In addition to authoring content for FlowerChat.com, Jennifer Laycock will also be involved in shaping the social media plans and policies for the new marketing initiatives.

Timeline
Here is the projected timeline to implement these changes:
• Jan 5th: Paid memberships now available
• Jan 12th: Free accounts will have reduced accessibility
• Jan 31st: Last day for free access to FlowerChat.com


Housekeeping

Ads-Free Accounts
Members who have paid for an ads-free upgraded account will have their payment credited towards a paid FC membership.

Advertising
The advertising on FlowerChat will be overhauled to primarily feature companies who have purchased a vendor account. We will not longer be displaying affiliate or direct-sell ads, except under special circumstances.

I feel that the time has come to make a decisive move to provide a unified message that is not biased by the sale of collectible containers, shareholders or significant fundraisers. I have no illusions that we can go toe-to-toe with the alleged $40 million advertising budget of FTD, or run Super Bowl ads alongside TF, but with the support of many florists we can be heard, and with combined resources we can make a difference.


So now the ball is in your court. Has FlowerChat provided enough value to you to justify $100/yr? If so, please join with us in moving forward by supporting our work.

Update:
Making the subscription link easier to see: http://www.flowerchat.com/forums/payments.php

AS YOU CAN PLAINLY SEE, THERE IS NOTHING IN RYAN'S ANNONCEMENT about new ventures, using more dollars for as yet un-named ventures,



Now, the copyrights/intellectual properties questions - Hate to be a naysayer, but in order for this to stand up, none of you have shown where such things as ideas, opinions, comments, are defined as copyright in a legal situation.

 

[Victoria]

If anyone wants their pearls removed, then remove them. It's a non issue really.

So many really big things to be talking about and we're beating this to death. Either choose to stay or not. Trying to convince people of opposite opinions is exhausting and counter productive.

V

 

[RWK]

You bring up a good point V. We have always ( since I have been a member of FC ) had the option to delete our own postings. So, for those who don't want to share in the future.......go to it and start deleting your own !!!!

In JB's case, that means sitting down and going though and deleting all 9000 plus postings...........why ask someone else to do what you can do yourself?

 

[goldfish]

Your analogy is based on an erroneous assumption that there are "free" fitness centers out there. There aren't.

Sandy, analogy is just that, analogy - similarity between two different things. Heart is analogous to pump, and these are of course different. Besides, I've already told that's the way *I* look at it; I didn't say that's the way everyone else should be looking at it.

A "free" or almost free fitness club could exist, however, if there was very low facility cost, (more importantly) all the members are willing to help each other, and administrators are willing to work free. These conditions could be met for forums too.

In fact, most forums are free, including the ones that are 100-1,000 times bigger than Flower Chat. Anyway, it really doesn't matter to me. If someone wants to buy the access, why not? Likewise, if other people do not want to do that, why should we be accused of 'crazy'? Please. It's a personal decision.

 

[CelebrationGeneration]

A "free" or almost free fitness club could exist, however, if there was very low facility cost, (more importantly) all the members are willing to help each other, and administrators are willing to work free. These conditions could be met for forums too.

REALLY? Who pays for all of the expensive equipment, both initially, and as it wears out? Repairs? Rent? Insurance? Health clubs aren't cheap, so no - such a set up would never work.

Why SHOULD administrators work for free, anyway? I'm assuming you have a value on your time.. why shouldn't they?

We all want our customers to value our time. We all fight a daily battle over it, really. Why should we expect people to have any respect for our own time and effort, if we're not willing to extend the same to others?

 

[CelebrationGeneration]

Oh, and for the record... I'd consider $100/year to be an "almost free" rate for a health club... and I seriously doubt membership in such a club would educate me much, or advance my career.

Additionally, in the health club analogy, with people helping each other.. well, in a free or almost free state, it would be absolutely overrun. It would be impossible to get time on what equipment was available... and the people who populate such a club would pretty much all be newbies. Would you want to get trained by someone who wasn't willing to invest enough in a gym membership to be able to work out on good equipment, free of lines, etc... with other PROs?

 

[Tracy D'Amico]

If anyone wants their pearls removed, then remove them. It's a non issue really.

V

If by pearls, you mean posts, it cannot be done. The threads are locked after a certain time limit, and IIRC, posts cannot be edited by the poster after 24 hours. Unless that's changed too.

 

[sfox]

Sfox - I thought you had more class and elegance than that.

Cathy, I do. But you and the other insiders, made the decision all by yourselves without input from anyone else.

Let me clear some things up.

First, the board belongs to Ryan and he can do what he wants. He can charge what he wants. But that doesn't mean everyone has to go along quietly. Looking at this string, I was the first to bring up my objections. But it has quickly brought many others out with their valid concerns.

Second, again you and the other insiders came up with $100.00 as a majic number. Why not $10.00? The idea of paying to support the board is not bad by itself.

Third, it seems that there are other intentions in the works and we again are in the dark.

And lastly, I have always been and always will be a person who speaks his mind. The only way you can get a good picture of anything is to look at all aspects of it. I only posted what is being bantered about.

 

[Victoria]

Tracy we can ask to have our pearls removed I'm guessing. So if that's the case then I don't see the problem or need for further angst. I mean no disrespect... ever.

Mr. Fox, if you want to make changes to your business, do you ask the masses for input? Just wondering.

It is Ryan's board as you said and we have all been here in all capacities thanks to him and the other volunteers. He's giving us all the option to stay or go. It's really no more complicated than that.

V

 

[lori042499]

Right now all I can muster is a giant HOLY CRAP.....

with 2 businesses running and spare time at an alltime low, I just cannot deal with all of this...more later..

 

[StriderWife]

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mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0cm; mso-para-margin-right:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0cm; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> I have been a member here officially for awhile now... unofficially since the beginning. I have read all 22 pages of posts and have got to say... wow... really... wow.
I love that you have all helped make FC what it is (and yes I do mean ALL of you). Granted it has been difficult to read some of the posts, as they can sometimes appear to be attacking the one I love.


So some comments...


To those of you who are supportive of the move... Thank you!!! Thank you for trusting, thank you for your words of encouragement and most all thank you for working hard at what you do best... flowers!


To those of you who are cautious and unsure... I understand. We want you to do what is right for you and your business, just as we at FC and Strider are doing. I’m sorry if that means you opt out at this point, but I do hope that you may choose to check in later and see how it has changed. I understand that money is tight, but as it has been stated many times (by people much smarter than I) what’s FC worth to your business?


To those who are confused about what is going on... I’m confused as to why you are confused. This is an upgrade on FC. The membership fee will get you exactly what Ryan stated, access to the content that has always been here and new content from a host of top people in the business. All this discussion as to where the money is going... I don’t understand because it has been laid out for you. If Ryan chooses to do other projects related to flowers from our business Strider he can. He does not need to give you details on a business plan, which would be an unwise business decision. I’m sorry if that offends you, but it is just the facts. FC was created to support florists, 7 years later that’s still the goal.